162 replies to this topic

[NixxxoN]

This thread is horrifying in the ignorance and lack of acceptance of reality it is peppered with. I mean I know the motor racing fan community is not exactly the best on this front but christ, its like listening to my fathers friends back in the 70s-80s... 

 

 

People.. the existence of racism and the fact that people of color face hurdles and discrimination vastly more than white people generally and specifically in motorsport is NOT open to realistic question, it is only questioned by racists and the truly ignorant. The fact that turning up in blackface (which they damned well did to abuse Lewis Hamilton, they had his NAME on) was a damned disgrace is not open to a discussion. It was not okay and everyone knew it including the racists doing it. They did it because they wanted to be racist and thought they would get away with it. Its Europe in the 2000s not the 1950s, no-one doesn't know that is not okay.

 

God I'm furious. I sort of wish a moderator would just erase it, but then it would just hide the problem.

 

Go Lewis, I hope he wins every damned race this year just to piss you lot off (and this is ME saying that).

 

I think Lewis winning so much is the proof that there is not racism in F1.

Maybe Lewis will win maybe not, its about who goes fastest to reach the checkered flag, not about skin color.

That bunch of spanish idiots with blackface, is just that, a bunch of idiots. It happened more than 10 years ago btw.

[CSF]

Is Lewis also upset that there are more black players than white in NBA? It must also come from structural discrimation I guess.

And only 0,2% players with Asian heritage in NBA! It is a disgrace...

 

Why, in this and the NASCAR threads, it always someone who's join date nearly pre-dates the internet that have these hot-takes? 

[pacificquay]

It is the first thing you said, and yes, all races can be racist, and the second thing doesnt exist at all. It used to exist maybe 100 years ago or more.

As a white man who has never been racist, I'm sick and tired of being portrayed as "white evil" because of what few of our ancestors did centuries ago.
Sorry but people of today are definitely NOT guilty of anything.

your white privilege is pouring off the screen here

[Rhodie65]

Is Lewis Hamilton stupid or what is the problem?

Of course racism can be from white against black, as well as from black against white.  Ask white people (if you find any) in Zimbabwe what they think of the subject.

 

I wasn't going to do a full response to this but seen how many people have liked this comment.....

 

I do find it annoying when people used my home country as an example of black on white racism. It's lazy, it's largely ill-informed and quite insulting.

 

The main driver behind the atrocities that were committed on the farmlands of Zimbabwe was a President that was losing popularity. He had already lost a referendum in which he'd asked for land to taken off white farmers and given to blacks without compensation. A country where 99% of the population are black, voted down that referendum. Needing to regain control, Mugabe enlisted war veterans and loyalists to Zanu-PF to take the land by force. He knew almost all white commercial farmers and their labour were supporting the MDC opposition and he also knew the MDC were about to topple him in the next election. 

 

It wasn't just a case of blacks booting out whites, it was a government sponsored move to ensure his supporters were looked after and any opposition crushed. Many of the blacks suffered a lot more than we did. Of course there was blacks that hated the whites but it was a tiny minority and not the reason why whites were terrorised, it was completely political and done under the false shield of "redressing the wrongs of colonialism". It was a way for Mugabe to stay in power and intimidate and destroy and opposition. 

 

If anyone asks me what Nationality I am I will always say Rhodesian. That's not because I have some kind of romantic view of the past and long for the days of flowing fields ruled by white men in safari suits while blacks do all the work. It's because that's what the country was called when I was born and my parents and grand parents have their roots there. That's my heritage. 

 

Nothing is as 'black and white' as the media portray it. 

Edited by Rhodie65, 28 June 2020 - 11:12.

[fed up]

It depends on your definition of racism, doesn't it? If you understand racism to be malice motivated by hatred or fear of another ethnic group, then yes, anyone can be racist to anyone. If you understand racism to be malice intended to maintain a hierachical system determining which ethnic groups hold power and which don't, then perhaps they can't, at least not in a Western context

Now this is where the debate normally falls flat on its face. Most white people are stuck in the first definition and are therefore blindsided by the subtleties of the second. In my experience most people may have an element of fear, ignorance or believing of stereotypes, but they are not overtly racist. I'd also say that some of the most racist people that I have ever met (skinheads aside in the 70's/80's) are non white.

 

Now if debate on race is somehow directed to the first definition, people will just get defensive and shut the whole argument down. They have no interest in anything else, because they are offended that someone will accuse them of something as derogatory as racism. When people are defensive they don't listen - they switch off, so the cause never moves on or improves.

 

Attitudes will change, it just takes time.

[Ben1445]

It is the first thing you said, and yes, all races can be racist, and the second thing doesnt exist at all. It used to exist maybe 100 years ago or more.

As a white man who has never been racist, I'm sick and tired of being portrayed as "white evil" because of what few of our ancestors did centuries ago.
Sorry but people of today are definitely NOT guilty of anything.

Systematic racism doesn't have to be a conscious, malicious act from anyone in particular - and it does still exist. Even if people today are not guilty of creating it, we do not have to passively perpetuate it.

 

I completely understand the objection to being blamed and being portrayed as evil. I also don't think that's what a vast majority of those campaigning for change are claiming to be the case. I do not believe your motivations for saying what you said here to be malicious/racist, but I would say they are in many ways blind to reality and are not really helping make anything better for anyone. 

 

I don't think anyone is truly free from having at least some internal racist bias - especially subconsciously. I came across a very good point recently which says that we can all be both anti-racism and slightly racist within ourselves and that is more than ok. What makes people good at being anti-racist is recognising, accepting and acting on that internal dynamic. 

Edited by Ben1445, 28 June 2020 - 11:35.

[BRG]

I've always considered it to be both. Or rather that racism can manifest itself as individual racism or as systematic racism and that they are not mutually exclusive.

I agree completely.

 

Prejudice & bigotry is endemic in the human race.  We are suspicious of our neighbours, mistrust the people in the next street, disapprove of folk from the next town, dislike foreigners.  And more so if they look,  speak or behave differently to ourselves.  It has ever been so and I am not sure if it can ever be eradicated.  Even if we all became some sort of blend of all the races and cultures, people in North London would still look down on South Londoners, and Yorkshire folk would despise the rest of us, especially Lancastrians.  And that's just in England. 

 

Most of the time, this is low level stuff of little consequence although unpleasant but it always has the potential to boil up into active hatred, discrimination and in the worst cases, genocide.  Take Rwanda, Bosnia and of course Germany.  Then consider what is happening in the west of China to the Uighurs.  

[absinthedude]

One person doing a lot of winning does not in any way prove or even suggest racism doesn't exist, within motorsport or elsewhere. By the same logic there is now no racism in the USA because they've had a  two term black president. Lewis' dad had to try that bit harder to open the doors for Lewis. Lewis himself will have worked harder than his white colleagues to impress in karting, and to keep the interest of McLaren. Just imagine how many other non-white people with sufficient skills and talent aren't making it because they have to try harder entirely due to their skin colour and background.

 

Racism still exists, in society and in motorsport. It may well be less overt, there is almost certainly less of it about than 40 years ago...but it's still there.

 

I'd like to see Bernie's comments in full context but he's known for saying things that are out of touch. 

[Synkro89]

I think Lewis winning so much is the proof that there is not racism in F1.

Maybe Lewis will win maybe not, its about who goes fastest to reach the checkered flag, not about skin color.

That bunch of spanish idiots with blackface, is just that, a bunch of idiots. It happened more than 10 years ago btw.

Wow your ignorance is absolutely pathetic . Im actually raging how uneducated this post is.        You need to open your bloody eyes because attitudes like this is why racism will always be a problem.

[statman]

[NixxxoN]

Wow your ignorance is absolutely pathetic . Im actually raging how uneducated this post is.        You need to open your bloody eyes because attitudes like this is why racism will always be a problem.

Maybe the uneducated and ignorant one is you, and all the people who think only whites are racist and don't realise that its the individuals are racist, not whites or any specific race.

Yes, I've known black racist people, and asian racist people. You guys are naive if you think there aren't racist people in races that aren't white.

Edited by NixxxoN, 28 June 2020 - 12:12.

[shure]

Maybe the uneducated and ignorant one is you, and all the people who think only whites are racist and don't realise that its the individuals are racist, not whites or any specific race.

Yes, I've known black racist people, and asian racist people. You guys are naive if you think there aren't racist people in races that aren't white.

aside from one specific poster I've not really seen anyone. say that only whites are racist.  Of course racism may exist anywhere.  But it's missing the point, which is that black people generally face larger hurdles in life (in the West) than white people do. Saying non-whites can be racist too won't change that reality black people face.

 

And the important thing to remember is that it doesn't have to be conscious to be racist.  It's a sad fact that the CV of a person named John Williams is more likely to be seen than one from someone called Dekembe Mutombo.  People tend to align themselves with what is familiar to them, even if they don't realise they are doing it.  This is an example of what's meant by systemic racism and often requires conscious effort to overcome.

 

It's foolish to deny that it doesn't exist.  At the same time, I think it's not helpful to attack people for things when they're not even aware that they may be doing something.  Education is better than preaching.  The problem with discussions like these is that people tend to get overly emotive and it's clouds their ability to have a civil conversation.  Which is when threads get closed down.  If there were fewer names being called and fingers pointed there would be afar greater chance of a productive discussion IMO.  And this is certainly a topic that warrants that

[Risil]

I'm closing this thread as Bernie Ecclestone's comments don't seem able to support much more than personal attacks and circular arguments. Please continue discussing this in the #WeRaceAsOne thread or the Paddock Club, if you want to slip the surly bonds of motor racing discussion.