1900 replies to this topic

[bermuditas]

This thread is open for all those wanting to make futurology, talk about what providers should Mclaren look at (ford, ferrari, tata, lada, polaris, etc.) and everything else that doesn't have place on the MCL32 thread as that thread is exclusively to talk about the car.

[Marklar]

Finally I can read the McLaren thread again 

[LeClerc]

Finally I can read the McLaren thread again 

 

Don't count your chickens until they hatch.....

[Risil]

I'd like to get the ball rolling and say that IMHO McLaren would be unwise to terminate this partnership. They are beginning year three of a ten-year deal with an engine supplier who is also their main sponsor. McLaren do not believe you can win a world championship as a Mercedes customer while the German car manufacturer is also running a works effort.

There's also the distinct likelihood that they haven't built a good chassis since 2012.

They wouldn't win the championship with Mercedes or Ferrari, and with Renault power in 2015 and '16 they wouldn't have achieved radically different results.

[f1paul]

This season-Points

Next season-A surprise podium

Season after-Podiums and a surprise win

Season after that-Wins but not quite the championship

Season after that-Welcome back to 1989

[FrontWing]

McLaren are in too deep, they've no choice but to see it out with Honda now. Without Honda they'd not have the budget they currently have, all they can do hope Honda eventually produce a competitive engine.

Edited by FrontWing, 04 March 2017 - 21:49.

[AmateurExpert]

Don't count your chickens until they hatch.....

LOL - there was still much premature counting going on in the MCL32 thread.

McLaren's goal is to get to the top, and in order to achieve this has a strategy (as per Risil's post). Much of the recent discourse has been focused on a single simplistic solution of swapping engine partner. I expect people advocating change are in one of two camps: 1) those who accept the existing strategy but believe that there is a better option for implementing it; 2) those preferring a new strategy.

For 1) McLaren needs a new engine partner, or else builds their own PU; the latter doesn't seem to have backing as a serious option. So what engine partners should McLaren consider, that can substitute and deliver better than Honda, bearing in mind that this option excludes Mercedes, Ferrari & Renault?

I assume those advocating swapping to Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault have a different strategy to achieve McLaren's goal, or perhaps wish for the goal to be changed (though a shame, it's perfectly valid, and it's not as if recent results are fantastic). Is there a better strategy for McLaren to achieve their goal?

All the above options also ignore the need for McLaren to also ensure that their chassis becomes and stays competitive at the top level. I don't think it is there yet, though this is probably a matter of technical resources rather than strategy.

[KnucklesAgain]

This season-Points

Next season-A surprise podium

Season after-Podiums and a surprise win

Season after that-Wins but not quite the championship

Season after that-Welcome back to 1989

 

Considering that just points became quite a normal thing last season already, anything but regular good points around P5/6/7 would be a disappointment. Whether this converts into a surprise podium would be pure luck but can happen when you are P5. So basically I would move your estimates one step up, but surprise podiums/wins cannot be expected by definition.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 March 2017 - 22:34.

[realracer200]

I think they should join Formula E. Then when in a decade Formula 1 switches to full electric they will have so much advantage in that technology compared to the other teams that they will easily win at least 5 world championships.

[Christbiscuit]

Are McLaren an attractive proposition to potential new engine manufacturers? They don't appear to be attractive to new major sponsors. Their chassis of recent years don't appear to be anything special at all so why would a new engine partner choose them over, say RBR? The existing engine manufacturers all have works efforts so Honda, at this point, are clearly their best option. The doomongers are out in force, as is sadly the way in the mass-hysteria internet age, but it's early into the life cycle of Honda's new design and I believe it would be prudent for all to actually see what it's capable of before the team cuts off its major income source.

Besides, perhaps Honda is looking for a decent chassis supplier?

[wj_gibson]

If McLaren ditch Honda then they are back to being a customer team, and we know that customers have never received the latest iterations of the engines.

[RECKLESS]

I really hope that they get their s### together fast and get regular points this season... P6 in the WCC?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

If by mid season things haven't improved to where they were in 2015/2016 then the divorce papers will be served.

I already have a feeling Alonso has agreed a Pre contract deal with Mercedes... (the Rosberg retirement would have left a bitter taste in the Mercedes management and they wouldn't want to get caught out like that again if Bottas doesn't work out)

I'm not sure who would supply them tho, maybe Mercedes might only so they can't be forced to supply Red Bull...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 05 March 2017 - 08:25.

[LuckyStrike1]

If by mid season things haven't improved to where they were in 2015/2016 then the divorce papers will be served.

I already have a feeling Alonso has agreed a Pre contract deal with Mercedes...

I'm not sure who would supply them tho, maybe Mercedes might only so they can't be forced to supply Red Bull...

 

McLaren-Renault. How's that taste   

As long as Honda does not withdraw I can't see them going separate ways despite this ongoing fiasco with a terrible engine, a not so competitive car and a team management in chaos. McLaren does not have a viable option amongst the three other engine manufacturers. 

[Szoelloe]

I'd like to get the ball rolling and say that IMHO McLaren would be unwise to terminate this partnership. They are beginning year three of a ten-year deal with an engine supplier who is also their main sponsor. McLaren do not believe you can win a world championship as a Mercedes customer while the German car manufacturer is also running a works effort.

There's also the distinct likelihood that they haven't built a good chassis since 2012.

They wouldn't win the championship with Mercedes or Ferrari, and with Renault power in 2015 and '16 they wouldn't have achieved radically different results.

 

 

This^^

 

Apart from buying and buildig up a PU division(and that boat has sailed), I see no alternatives

[RPM40]

McLaren need to work the relationship moving forward, if they go back to another customer team they have no chance of a meaningful future.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

McLaren need to work the relationship moving forward, if they go back to another customer team they have no chance of a meaningful future.

And sticking with Honda would be any different? They have had two years and still no further forward and this year is looking like more of the same... (based on ONE Pre season test)

I don't think McLaren are the problem here and I feel sorry for there fans!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 05 March 2017 - 09:12.

[RPM40]

And sticking with Honda would be any different? They have had two years and still no further forward and this year is looking like more of the same... (based on ONE Pre season test)

I don't think McLaren are the problem here and I feel sorry for there fans!

 

Who would give them engines? Merc? Unlikely. I'm sure Ferrari would be glad to give them last years spec.

Edited by RPM40, 05 March 2017 - 09:43.

[Szoelloe]

And sticking with Honda would be any different? They have had two years and still no further forward and this year is looking like more of the same... (based on ONE Pre season test)

I don't think McLaren are the problem here and I feel sorry for there fans!

 

Possibly yes. It holds more potential than stepping back into a customer team status. While Honda broadens the horizon, being a customer to a factory team most certainly decreases it. And no, I cannot accept the Red Bull example. Renault was not a factory team until very recently. Now, however, they are. Let's see the relationship between RB and Viry in a few seasons.

[F1 Mike]

How about BMW? Were there not rumours of them considering a return?

[FullOppositeLock]

Possibly yes. It holds more potential than stepping back into a customer team status. While Honda broadens the horizon, being a customer to a factory team most certainly decreases it. And no, I cannot accept the Red Bull example. Renault was not a factory team until very recently. Now, however, they are. Let's see the relationship between RB and Viry in a few seasons.

Exactly. The successful Red Bull -Renault relationship of the pre-Mercedes area is exactly what McLaren is trying to replicate with Honda. At some point in the not so distant future so will Red Bull have to itself too if Renault is serious about its own ambitions (questionable imo).

As I've said in the McLaren thread before it was split, it would be foolish for McLaren to endure years of hardship while Honda gets its act together and give up before it's come to fruition. I think Red Bull and Williams woule jump at the chance of taking McLaren's place even if it meant not being quite as competitive as they currently are for a few years.

This relationship is all about potential for both parties. If they were to split up, I doubt Honda would be the worst off of the two.

[AmateurExpert]

If by mid season things haven't improved to where they were in 2015/2016 then the divorce papers will be served.

I'm not sure who would supply them tho, maybe Mercedes might only so they can't be forced to supply Red Bull...

Things going badly with the current arrangement is insufficient justification to terminate it. They must also have a realistic option open to them that they judge to be a better likelihood of achieving their goal - and you don't even know what their options are. Even if they get their hands on Mercedes engines, they are extremely unlikely to beat the Mercedes team at their own game.

So do you think that reaching the top is no longer what McLaren should aim at? Or do you think you have a better strategy for doing this?

Edited by AmateurExpert, 05 March 2017 - 10:24.

[KnucklesAgain]

If by mid season things haven't improved to where they were in 2015/2016 then the divorce papers will be served.

I already have a feeling Alonso has agreed a Pre contract deal with Mercedes... (the Rosberg retirement would have left a bitter taste in the Mercedes management and they wouldn't want to get caught out like that again if Bottas doesn't work out)

I'm not sure who would supply them tho, maybe Mercedes might only so they can't be forced to supply Red Bull...

 

Possibly, but there is really very little chance that they are not better than 2015. And if that happens, Honda surely cannot be the only one to blame as long as they provide a PU that can do a race distance with 100 hp down
 

[CoolBreeze]

So now...3 threads for the Mclaren?

[muramasa]

　

yes

car, livery, and future

[LeClerc]

I think they should join Formula E. Then when in a decade Formula 1 switches to full electric they will have so much advantage in that technology compared to the other teams that they will easily win at least 5 world championships.

 

What!?!?

[jjcale]

I said at the start of this that going back to Honda was a mistake ... they are not the company they were decades ago. 

 

I am still a bit surprised they have been so shite .. and I have no real expectations that they will get back to winning championships with Honda.

 

The sooner they leave them the better.

 

Going back to Honda was another Bull Crap idea by Whitmarsh .... 

Edited by jjcale, 05 March 2017 - 15:57.

[HoldTheLine]

They should probably stick it out, you just know the second they terminate the deal Honda will partner some other team like Williams or Force India, stumble across some crazy innovation and then win the WDC.

Edited by HoldTheLine, 05 March 2017 - 16:09.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Possibly, but there is really very little chance that they are not better than 2015. And if that happens, Honda surely cannot be the only one to blame as long as they provide a PU that can do a race distance with 100 hp down

You think that would be acceptable after 3 years development? I don't!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 05 March 2017 - 16:17.

[kosmos]

McLaren need to work the relationship moving forward, if they go back to another customer team they have no chance of a meaningful future.

 

Maybe is Honda the one saying bye, for how long they can take the humiliation if things don't get better in 2-3 years?.

[George Costanza]

McLaren should have stayed with Mercedes...

[V8 Fireworks]

The Red Bull model shows the way...

 

McLaren need:

 

1. To renegotiable a favourable deal (in the "historical payment" aka bribe column) with FOM, as Red Bull, Mercedes & Ferrari have. {This applies to Williams too, who were also outfoxed in FOM negotiations}
2. A strong sponsorship package.  [Where is it!?]

With the above, a customer Renault or Mercedes engine should be sufficient to be winning races.

 

 

LOL - there was still much premature counting going on in the MCL32 thread.

McLaren's goal is to get to the top, 

 

Being at the top is a way of doing things, as demonstrated by Red Bull... even though Red Bull don't always win.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 05 March 2017 - 16:35.

[Pimpwerx]

Leaving Mercedes was a proud move, but a mistake. I know they didn't think they could compete with the works team, but now they're much worse off. If their chassis was as good as they claim, they'd be able to challenge for wins. Red Bull and Ferrari did so with inferior engines. I know Honda gets and deserves a lot of blame, but we have to also consider that the team management itself might be suffering a case of great expectations.

[F1Lurker]

I had decided not to comment anymore but... McLaren's whole basis of rejecting a customer supply was that customers do not get parity with a competing manufacturer and thus it is practically "impossible" to win a championship.

The second aspect of this logic is that they would be in a position to win a championship with a works partner (Honda). If Honda is never within the top two PUs McLaren will never win a championship anyway. So McLaren's years of pain during this engine formula will be for nothing.

If I recall, there are only two to three years of this formula left anyway then Brawn wants something with more noise (probably still hybrid).

[V8 Fireworks]

So McLaren's years of pain during this engine formula will be for nothing.
 

 

But McLaren did not achieve the best chassis or best strategy during this time anyway.

[KnucklesAgain]

You think that would be acceptable after 3 years development? I don't!

 

I don't think it's good, but I really don't have the expertise to judge. But it was not me but you who wrote "If by mid season things haven't improved to where they were in 2015/2016 then the divorce papers will be served."

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 05 March 2017 - 16:42.

[TakataDomeNSX]

I don't see any difference to the discussion in MCL 32 thread.....

[F1Lurker]

But McLaren did not achieve the best chassis or best strategy during this time anyway.

You are almost certainly right, which in itself is a huge hit against management for not having realistic expectations.

 

I will be charitable and guess that winning a championship was only half of the McLaren "strategy". Of course, they felt that Honda would be competitive in their first year and probably (at least) top 2/3 in their second and following years; however, they were also counting on the financial contribution from Honda in the short to medium term. I suspect McLaren had planned to be manufacturing its own PU's within 10 years--their affiliate makes cars after all and is planning dramatic growth.

 

Whatever strategy they had went to hell with horrible results, much less prize money and mass sponsor desertion. I personally expect Honda to leave by the end of next year if they are not better than at least one of the other PU manufacturers.

 

If/when Alonso leaves things would get appreciably worse--would mean a loss of prestige and probably more sponsorship.

Edited by F1Lurker, 05 March 2017 - 18:01.

[PayasYouRace]

I worry that McLaren may have hit that point of no return and they'll now be seeing out their final years in F1 in the midfield at best. I'm reminded mainly of Lotus in the 80s and 90s, or Brabham or Tyrrell, but mainly Lotus as they're also a road car manufacturer.

In that context it doesn't matter what engine supply they have for the next few years. I think McLaren's future will depend much more on the new management than on who supplies the lump in the back.

F1's engine regs will change sooner or later and it won't always be Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda as the four suppliers. If the relationship with Honda doesn't work there'll be an opportunity to switch away at some point. But the team has to do its best in the meantime. I'm not convinced that Honda is the sole source of the lack of performance right now, even if they are the main one.

At the moment Honda is probably the best option though. This isn't the 1990s where you could have four engine suppliers in four years and be no lower than 4th.

[Szoelloe]

The Red Bull model shows the way...

 

McLaren need:

 

1. To renegotiable a favourable deal (in the "historical payment" aka bribe column) with FOM, as Red Bull, Mercedes & Ferrari have. {This applies to Williams too, who were also outfoxed in FOM negotiations}
2. A strong sponsorship package.  [Where is it!?]

With the above, a customer Renault or Mercedes engine should be sufficient to be winning races.

 

 

 

Being at the top is a way of doing things, as demonstrated by Red Bull... even though Red Bull don't always win.

 

With all due respect, I call BS on this.

 

It is the first season Red Bull is a customer team. When they were winning, they called themselves the Renault factory team. From the moment of the new PU regs - which they agreed upon too btw - They have been exposed to all the weaknesses and mistakes there PU manufacterer has made, and however arrogant they were at the beginning, they had no say in how renault preferred to handle the situation, apart from giving all the feedback they could, being one of the teams Renault as an engine manufacturer supplied. But basically, RB has been shown the way by the factory teams, and the future looks bleak if Bell steadies the that team. What Red Bull has demonstrated so far is the opposite: You can have - maybe - the best chassis team, strong infrastructure, and and limitless spending capability if needed, but if you don't have the PU in-house, you can set your sight on the occasional win, but the WDC is out of reach.

[F1Lurker]

I worry that McLaren may have hit that point of no return and they'll now be seeing out their final years in F1 in the midfield at best. I'm reminded mainly of Lotus in the 80s and 90s, or Brabham or Tyrrell, but mainly Lotus as they're also a road car manufacturer.

In that context it doesn't matter what engine supply they have for the next few years. I think McLaren's future will depend much more on the new management than on who supplies the lump in the back.

F1's engine regs will change sooner or later and it won't always be Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda as the four suppliers. If the relationship with Honda doesn't work there'll be an opportunity to switch away at some point. But the team has to do its best in the meantime. I'm not convinced that Honda is the sole source of the lack of performance right now, even if they are the main one.

At the moment Honda is probably the best option though. This isn't the 1990s where you could have four engine suppliers in four years and be no lower than 4th.

Your point of view has validity.

 

I guess that one way to look at things is: If McLaren switched to Mercedes for 2018 where could they realistically hope to finish in the championship? let's assume the PU ranking remains Mercedes, Ferrari/Renault and Honda 4th best. 

 

Maybe I'm an optimist but I think they could potentially be 2nd or third overall (with a potential race win or two) which would do wonders for their prize money and sponsorship.

[AmateurExpert]

Being at the top is a way of doing things, as demonstrated by Red Bull... even though Red Bull don't always win.

No, I was referring to a goal and not a way of doing things, so "the top" meant "the top team" - i.e. winning the WCC. Red Bull aren't that.

[TomNokoe]

Alonso will drive Spanish GP one more time and then retire post-race after finishing 16th. I don't know if that counts as an answer.

McLaren Honda will not reach the podium this year.

[AmateurExpert]

I said at the start of this that going back to Honda was a mistake ... they are not the company they were decades ago.

Certainly it was a big risk, and we can agree it's a mistake in hindsight. It still doesn't mean that it was the wrong decision in the first place though, only that it was a risk that didn't work out.

I am still a bit surprised they have been so shite .. and I have no real expectations that they will get back to winning championships with Honda.

The sooner they leave them the better.

I think both McLaren and Honda are surprised at their relative lack of performance. Breaking up the partnership early for an undefined plan B isn't automatically going to be better for McLaren. It might even be better for Honda as they won't be spending huge amounts only to suck up bad press, regardless of the actual split of blame.

Edited by AmateurExpert, 05 March 2017 - 17:59.

[FullOppositeLock]

I don't see any difference to the discussion in MCL 32 thread.....

Were you not the one asking for the topic to be split because you couldn't read up on news about the car and had to wade your way through countless posts from non-regular McLaren Honda posters that didn't interest or even irritated you? Bit ironic that you are coming in here now to complain about this topic. Coincidentally, I would be interested in knowing where you stand with regards to this particular subject.

[Dennista]

I expect Honda to fail miserably this season.

 

McLaren cannot afford to go through another 3 years of rebuilding with another works engine deal. BMW should have been approached instead of Honda and now we would have been in the position of Williams in 2003 enjoying fruits of BMW and their total powerhouse of an engine they made for that season.

 

Go for a customer deal with Renault. Ferrari is traditional enemy so never them. Mercedes will no doubt sabotage their supply so that leaves us with Renault. At least we gain parity with Red Bull.

 

But will that make us the front running world class outfit we use to be? I think not. Ferrari and Mercedes will always have the upper hand. 

 

After cementing top 4 constructor status for 5 seasons in a row and repopulating sponsors roster, then look for a works deal with BMW. Do not go for an engine supplier who does not have track record in F1 and definitely not them being based outside of Europe unless they decided to relocate their f1 engine ops near Mclaren HQ.

 

Toyota perhaps? Would they be willing work out of Woking?

Edited by Dennista, 05 March 2017 - 22:57.

[wj_gibson]

If BMW wanted to come back to F1 then I think they would have done so by now.

[minime]

So now...3 threads for the Mclaren?

 

We need another for the Alonso love-fest as well.

[minime]

 BMW should have been approached instead of Honda and now we would have been in the position of Williams in 2003 enjoying fruits of BMW and their total powerhouse of an engine they made for that season.

 

 

They may well have been for all we know and also some things are commercially not possible. Do I recall correctly that MB were more than a little miffed when McLaren decided to go it alone and build their own road car instead of having the bespoke McLaren Mercedes as they did at the time? 

[shonguiz]

This BMW stuff BS needs to stop.You can't just say McLaren should have gone with BMW instead of Honda. It's not as if all the manufacturers were staying there waiting for the holly F1 to call them to get in. BMW made it clear: We do not have bottomless pockets and we think the fortune we pay or would pay in F1 would be much better utilized elsewhere. Plus BMW would never redo a williams scenario where they are there to just take orders, give cash and shut it up. So McLaren could in no way lure BMW in.

Edited by shonguiz, 06 March 2017 - 21:42.