1900 replies to this topic

[Vettelari]

The only way we see a BMW return is if they are happy with the new upcoming engine regs and can purchase Sauber for cheap. In my completely worthless opinion as always.

Edited by Vettelari, 06 March 2017 - 03:23.

[TakataDomeNSX]

FullOppositeLock, on 05 Mar 2017 - 18:04, said:

Were you not the one asking for the topic to be split because you couldn't read up on news about the car and had to wade your way through countless posts from non-regular McLaren Honda posters that didn't interest or even irritated you? Bit ironic that you are coming in here now to complain about this topic. Coincidentally, I would be interested in knowing where you stand with regards to this particular subject.

 

No buddy, I was not the one. I simply voiced approval for it but said it's probably pointless.

 

Since the topic of future, relationships, etc AND in the other thread about the car itself is equally fair game for negative types, i.e. proclamations of "its doomed!" can apply to either topic, so I personally don't think this kind of split works, but I REALLY do hope I'm wrong.

 

I am rather sure if there are any, ANY small problems in testing the trolls will beat down the walls on both sides with chants of death to Honda! But hope I'm wrong. Fingers crossed I'm wrong.

 

That's all I'll say I dont want to be a broken record, and long live this thread.

[TakataDomeNSX]

Lovely, really lovely dubbing work old school sounds on 2017 cars

 

Shows how much better things could be with screaming NA sound

 

https://www.youtube....bed/hLOWSLd53U4

Edited by TakataDomeNSX, 06 March 2017 - 07:58.

[minime]

shonguiz, on 06 Mar 2017 - 00:58, said:

This BMW stuff BS needs to stop.You can't just say McLaren should have gone with BMW instead of Honda. It's not as if all the manufacturers were staying there waiting for the holly F1 to call them to get in. BMW made it clear: We are do not have bottomless pockets and we think the fortune we pay or would pay in F1 would be much better utilized elsewhere. Plus BMW would never redo a williams scenario where they are there to just take orders, give cash and shut it up. So McLaren could in no way lure BMW in.

 

But some people believe what they post, someone makes up a "what if" and that is all it takes. Reality does not come into it, like some saying that McLaren need to ditch Honda now. What a load of crap, there is no way known that a move of that nature could take place for so many reasons I won't even begin to list them.  

[RacingGreen]

BMW board decided in July 2009 to withdraw from Formula One. When were they ever seriously looking at saving McLaren from years of competitiveness. I think we have to start accepting that McLaren's glory is behind them and they are fading away like so many before them. Tyrrell, Lotus and Brabham spring to mind.

 

Farewell and thanks for the memories....   

[Music Lover]

FullOppositeLock, on 05 Mar 2017 - 10:10, said:

Exactly. The successful Red Bull -Renault relationship of the pre-Mercedes area is exactly what McLaren is trying to replicate with Honda. At some point in the not so distant future so will Red Bull have to itself too if Renault is serious about its own ambitions (questionable

Renault will never have the same great chassis as RB = no issue for RB

[Music Lover]

George Costanza, on 05 Mar 2017 - 16:31, said:

McLaren should have stayed with Mercedes...

Based on the info from Bollier (Honda is 3-4 years after) YES that was a stupid decision!!!
How on earth did they think Honda could manage this drawback?

Edited by Music Lover, 06 March 2017 - 09:04.

[FullOppositeLock]

Music Lover, on 06 Mar 2017 - 08:59, said:

Renault will never have the same great chassis as RB = no issue for RB

 

It will be an issue for Red Bull. Renault are spending big and apparently want to be back to winning ways in a few years time. Do you really believe they will let continue to let Red Bull have full engine equality once they've caught up?

[HP]

F1 is so fast moving, It's hard to say what will bring them success. Weather out the storm (Honda), go back to where they left off (Merc), or start afresh (any other engine).

 

Most important however is that Mclaren can keep their staff. While the Mclaren head quarters is a neat place, that alone can't keep people motivated, can it?

 

Vettelari, on 06 Mar 2017 - 03:22, said:

The only way we see a BMW return is if they are happy with the new upcoming engine regs and can purchase Sauber for cheap. In my completely worthless opinion as always.

Been there, done that..

[HP]

Music Lover, on 06 Mar 2017 - 09:02, said:

Based on the info from Bollier (Honda is 3-4 years after) YES that was a stupid decision!!!
How on earth did they think Honda could manage this drawback?

 

It was a bold move from Ron Dennis. The only issue was that was worked in the last century, doesn't work in this century anymore. nevertheless at the time it seemed not bad at all.

 

Where it really went wrong however was when Mercedes was prepared to buy more into McLaren. Can't change the past obviously. And McLaren was and is not just involved in F1.

[taffer]

Amaze us with B-spec Toyota powered beast by mid-season, just to see  them retiring on last lap when leading by a huge margin 

[Rinehart]

If McLaren want to remain a works outfit, they're stuck with the Honda partnership for the foreseeable and need to make it work.

IF a new manufacturer such as BMW or Ford wanted to enter F1, they're minimally 2 years away from entry (assuming they've not started developing an F1 engine yet) and minimally a further 2 years away from full competitiveness. That's 2022. By then Honda will have an additional 4 years of development from where they are today and the McLaren-Honda contract will only have 2 more years to run. 

And there are no guarantees that BMW or Ford would do a better job than Honda. 

[McLobby]

I don't know if it's reliable or not, or if it's just another misinterpretation or bad translation/copy of interviews we've already read...

I am posting it here because the title is about the future of Alonso....

Anyway quoting from http://www.sportsmol...018_293169.html

 

Quote

 

Asked what the mood is like behind the scenes, team boss Boullier told La Gazzetta dello Sport: "There are ongoing discussions.

"We are all disappointed by these first tests, because we could not do what we wanted. I do not know if Honda can give us the guarantees we ask for.

"But we absolutely need to see significant progress."

 

"The oil tank is fixed, but what worries me now is the problem of the second day," Honda's Yusuke Hasegawa told Spanish broadcaster Movistar.

"It could affect the start of the season, but I hope not and that we can be reliable in Australia."

 

As for whether Alonso will still be at McLaren-Honda in 2018, Boullier admitted: "I hope so, but I'm not sure.

"After six months everybody said it would be a tragedy with him, a mess, but in the third year he is still here," Boullier said.

 

"Of course he is not happy, because he wants to fight to win. It is up to us to bring McLaren to the level it deserves."

 

"For sure Fernando is still at the top. The way he has prepared for this season is incredible. He is an example and an inspiration for many drivers."

Edited by McLobby, 06 March 2017 - 10:25.

[Music Lover]

FullOppositeLock, on 06 Mar 2017 - 09:04, said:

It will be an issue for Red Bull. Renault are spending big and apparently want to be back to winning ways in a few years time. Do you really believe they will let continue to let Red Bull have full engine equality once they've caught up?

So you expect Renault to build a chassis in same class as RB and run the team/car as efficiently?

I bet rather few consider that realistic.

RB as a team has recent experience of being at the top - Renault don't just need a good car, winning races on a regular basis is a TEAM effort. 

 

Also, Renault need to sell the engine to some teams to finance the engine development.  

[David Lightman]

In an ideal world Manor would be still running, and using Honda engines to help get mileage.

[Fonzey]

I think podium will be out of reach this season, and that the car will show flashes of pace punctuated with poor reliability.

 

I'd like to see McLaren and Honda presenting a much more unified front, Woking need to start taking some accountability for what I honestly believe has been a mediocre chassis and integration solution over the past few years whilst working WITH Honda to be a true constructor team. Right now they're treating this like a customer relationship, and that's not going to work.

 

I believe McLaren are 5 years away from a WCC - without a(nother) major regulations overhaul in the meantime.

[Mohican]

No mention here of a possible second Honda-powered team, and what that would mean ? If there were a second team running honda Engines, you would have an instant benchmark for the McLaren chassis.

[Fonzey]

Mohican, on 06 Mar 2017 - 12:24, said:

No mention here of a possible second Honda-powered team, and what that would mean ? If there were a second team running honda Engines, you would have an instant benchmark for the McLaren chassis.

 

True, but the only potential past/present candidates are Manor and Sauber - hardly a high benchmark for chassis development. 

 

A second/third team I feel will be critical to the development of the Honda unit, how they hope to compete with 25/33% of the testing environment is beyond me.

[Mohican]

Are you sure ? Would have thought that RBR would definitely be a potential candidate for looking at works Honda engines.

 

Their longterm engine policy appear to have been built on Audi, and that is not going to happen. But i could easily see them edging McLaren out as Honda works partners in a year or two. 

[minime]

Just a few random thoughts on PU's and who supplies them.

 

The situation that McLaren finds themselves in is a result of poor forward thinking by F1 as a whole. If an independent engine manufacturer as Cosworth once was had been contracted to supply motors parallel to the the present group then perhaps McLaren would have an alternative but that didn't happen and McLaren are between a rock and a hard place or so it seems. I think not having an independent engine supplier is the one single biggest failing of F1 at the present time. What would be an impediment to having an independent engine supplier could be the lack of competitors, another 12 cars on the grid would make it a more viable alternative. 

[TakataDomeNSX]

Rinehart, on 06 Mar 2017 - 09:55, said:

If McLaren want to remain a works outfit, they're stuck with the Honda partnership for the foreseeable and need to make it work.

IF a new manufacturer such as BMW or Ford wanted to enter F1, they're minimally 2 years away from entry (assuming they've not started developing an F1 engine yet) and minimally a further 2 years away from full competitiveness. That's 2022. By then Honda will have an additional 4 years of development from where they are today and the McLaren-Honda contract will only have 2 more years to run. 

And there are no guarantees that BMW or Ford would do a better job than Honda. 

 

 

Well said mate!

[Dzeidzei]

It is with sadness that we must inform our fans, but the Glory Days are over for McLaren F1 team.

 

I weap for the team that gave Mika his 2 wdc titles and looked so quick in the hands of Kimi. RIP

[TakataDomeNSX]

Mohican, on 06 Mar 2017 - 12:37, said:

Are you sure ? Would have thought that RBR would definitely be a potential candidate for looking at works Honda engines.

 

Their longterm engine policy appear to have been built on Audi, and that is not going to happen. But i could easily see them edging McLaren out as Honda works partners in a year or two. 

 

A Red Bull Honda

 

[Supertourer]

But BMW provide the powertrains for the McLaren road cars, so there is synergy there and a 'message' that they cancrry over from the rroad car to F1 business.
I am just putting it out there, but does McLaren need to be in F1 at all? Wouldn't GT racing/Le Mans be more relevant to their road car business and then
apply their other technology to FE and future EV GT racing - is F1 relevant to them and their shareholders now?

[Dennista]

Rinehart, on 06 Mar 2017 - 09:55, said:

If McLaren want to remain a works outfit, they're stuck with the Honda partnership for the foreseeable and need to make it work.

IF a new manufacturer such as BMW or Ford wanted to enter F1, they're minimally 2 years away from entry (assuming they've not started developing an F1 engine yet) and minimally a further 2 years away from full competitiveness. That's 2022. By then Honda will have an additional 4 years of development from where they are today and the McLaren-Honda contract will only have 2 more years to run. 

And there are no guarantees that BMW or Ford would do a better job than Honda. 

 

There is no guarantee Honda will become a powerful and reliable engine supplier. McLaren should cut their losses when they still have the resources to do so.

 

Doing it in 2022 after nearly a decade being a backmarker and no sponsers and empty bank account will not bode well. They could well withdraw to being an electronics manufacturer and non F1 racing team, prancing around in some pointless series that nobody cares much about.

 

Just swallow the pride and go back to Mercedes.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Dennista, on 06 Mar 2017 - 16:40, said:

There is no guarantee Honda will become a powerful and reliable engine supplier. McLaren should cut their losses when they still have the resources to do so.

 

Doing it in 2022 after nearly a decade being a backmarker and no sponsers and empty bank account will not bode well. They could well withdraw to being an electronics manufacturer and non F1 racing team, prancing around in some pointless series that nobody cares much about.

 

Just swallow the pride and go back to Mercedes.

Do you know that your avatar doesn't agree with you?

[FredrikB]

Lol.

 

https://www.facebook...18723071579857/

[tkulla]

A few things:

 

1. I don't know what the final asking price for Manor was before they folded, but if it was cheap Honda really should have bought the team as a Super Aguri-style second team. A second team would be helpful for testing and developing engines. They could even use the team to test new engines during the season as already being at the back would mean the grid penalties would be meaningless. 

 

2. McLaren Honda is going to have a driver problem after this year if they don't get it together soon. Alonso will certainly leave and Button will probably decline to return if the team isn't competitive. They better hope Stoffel is the real deal in that case.

 

3. Is Mclaren in a financial position that they could buy Ricardo (their road car engine developer)? Ricardo's market cap is current £480M. It's too late for this engine formula, but under Ross Brawn I would expect the next formula to be a back-to-basics combustion engine.

Edited by tkulla, 06 March 2017 - 17:31.

[McLobby]

FredrikB, on 06 Mar 2017 - 17:15, said:

Lol.

 

https://www.facebook...18723071579857/

 

Hilarious... I needed a good laugh.... thnx for sharing

 

 

 

[FullOppositeLock]

tkulla, on 06 Mar 2017 - 17:28, said:

A few things:

1. I don't know what the final asking price for Manor was before they folded, but if it was cheap Honda really should have bought the team as a Super Aguri-style second team. A second team would be helpful for testing and developing engines. They could even use the team to test new engines during the season as already being at the back would mean the grid penalties would be meaningless.

2. McLaren Honda is going to have a driver problem after this year if they don't get it together soon. Alonso will certainly leave and Button will probably decline to return if the team isn't competitive. They better hope Stoffel is the real deal in that case.

3. Is Mclaren in a financial position that they could buy Ricardo (their road car engine developer)? Ricardo's market cap is current £480M. It's too late for this engine formula, but under Ross Brawn I would expect the next formula to be a back-to-basics combustion engine.

Re 1. it would have been far easier to get another team involved. There was one potentially interested in 2015. McLaren vetoed it.

[SpaceGhost]

Cant see Honda board every approving buying a team after 2009. Also, I think McLaren have a clause prohibiting that.  Honda  are already spending hundreds of millions a year for bad PR. If anything the board will be looking at an exit. As for Alonso better to have a low profile driver in a bad car than a high profile car in a bad car. Honda does not need the added negative attention of being the ones who have ruined Alonso's career. Imagine paying someone $30m+ and get blamed for his demise. Yep that's Honda for you. 

[BRG]

Dzeidzei, on 06 Mar 2017 - 13:08, said:

It is with sadness that we must inform our fans, but the Glory Days are over for McLaren F1 team.

 

I weap for the team that gave Mika his 2 wdc titles and looked so quick in the hands of Kimi. RIP

Reminds me of the last time that McLaren were dead and nearly buried, back in 1980.  But then came Ron...

 

Supertourer, on 06 Mar 2017 - 13:44, said:

But BMW provide the powertrains for the McLaren road cars

No, they don't.

[GTA]

Why would any outside engine manufacturer think about associating themselves with Mclaren ? It's not like they are making the best chassis and are solely being held back by the engine. The best thing they have now is the driver lineup who are themselves stuck without options.

 

Mclaren have been a **** show for a long time, involved in cheating, driver drama, boardroom drama and engine drama. The best thing that Mclaren have done for F1 since the early 2000s is Lewis Hamilton.

[Mc_Silver]

GTA, on 06 Mar 2017 - 18:01, said:

Why would any outside engine manufacturer think about associating themselves with Mclaren ? It's not like they are making the best chassis and are solely being held back by the engine. The best thing they have now is the driver lineup who are themselves stuck without options.

 

Mclaren have been a **** show for a long time, involved in cheating, driver drama, boardroom drama and engine drama. The best thing that Mclaren have done for F1 since the early 2000s is Lewis Hamilton.

 

Ferrari had much more dramas than McLaren. Your hatred towards McLaren is not good for your health. Calm down. 

Edited by Mc_Silver, 06 March 2017 - 18:11.

[juicy sushi]

McLaren, as others have pointed out, need Honda to get it together.  Honda, provided they actually have the stomach to continue in F1, need McLaren too.  At this point, Honda are the ones looking like the party in the wrong and need to be able to demonstrate meaningful improvement in order to justify any of the budget they are spending.

 

I think the questions are "How much longer can McLaren tolerate Honda failure?" and "How much longer can Honda tolerate Honda failure?"

 

I suspect the answers to both are "not long".  If Honda are unable to make any forward progress this year, then likely McLaren will face a lot of pressure to part ways, and Honda as well may face internal pressure to quit by management.  I think of the two, McLaren would run out of patience first, but I do wonder how on earth Honda are going to make up progress, and where it will come from. 

 

I also wonder how loud the voices inside Honda are to ditch F1 as a dying sport.  I suspect that voice will get much louder soon, if F1 doesn't get its collective act together as well.  And that might be a bigger factor than competitiveness in the long-term.

[ZOne]

Following McLaren for almost 30 years now it never looked worse than today. Even if Honda would be competitive, McLaren would still be 100million short in budget to match the top. Even though Hondas lack of performance contributed to the lack of sponsors/budget, I don't think it would be any different if McLaren were a Mercedes customer. For the big money you have to sell your sponsors a perspective of lots of winning.

 

So what are the options?

 

If Honda sucks, McLaren should try to get another car manufacturer into F1. The Mercedes investment works for them, it could work for other big brands too. They will have to invest big time though.

But even if they can get someone else into F1, it would still take at least 3 years, probably 5 to reach competitiveness and get back to winning.

 

Honda is clearly closer to that. But they need to up their game, invest more money. Do whatever is needed.

 

McLaren on the other hand needs a title-sponsor. Of course Dennis was right to claim they didn't because everything else would have looked weak and doesn't sell. But they need at least 60 million/year more to get back to winning. That will be Zak Browns job. And if he doesn't deliver, they'll better get Ron back in charge.

[Nathan]

minime, on 06 Mar 2017 - 12:55, said:

The situation that McLaren finds themselves in is a result of poor forward thinking by F1 as a whole. If an independent engine manufacturer as Cosworth once was had been contracted to supply motors parallel to the the present group then perhaps McLaren would have an alternative but that didn't happen and McLaren are between a rock and a hard place or so it seems. I think not having an independent engine supplier is the one single biggest failing of F1 at the present time. What would be an impediment to having an independent engine supplier could be the lack of competitors, another 12 cars on the grid would make it a more viable alternative. 

 

How can any independent engine maker pay the bills??

[New Britain]

McLaren's financial situation is entirely different from what it was a few years ago:

- they no longer are getting a subsidy from Mercedes,

- they have lost their major sponsors (Vodafone, Mobil, TAG, H Boss), and

- they are getting a much smaller chunk of prize money than what they had become accustomed to.

 

Unless they get new shareholders, new big sponsors, much more prize money, or there is a meaningful cost cap imposed on all teams, McLaren cannot afford to cut ties to Honda, who supply them with free engines (for which as a customer of any other engine supplier they would have to pay) and substantial additional funding.

 

Over the years Ron made a lot of big bets, most of which he got right. Not taking up Glaxo's supposed title sponsor offer, refusing to sell out to Mercedes, and finally cutting a deal with Honda may have at the time made sense, but for now they seem regrettable.

 

Zak Brown is not a proven racing team leader, and he is not a proven leader of a large organisation, but he is a world-class finder of sponsors. It is no accident that he was chosen to replace Ron. Until McLaren's financial needs are resolved, it is hard to see the team walking away from Honda.

[KnucklesAgain]

The Bahraini royal family is supposed to have deep pockets though. And regarding not selling out to Merc, there most likely would not be a McLaren Racing today had Ron not refused.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 06 March 2017 - 21:59.

[V8 Fireworks]

David Lightman, on 06 Mar 2017 - 10:54, said:

In an ideal world Manor would be still running, and using Honda engines to help get mileage.

 

It would be better if Red Bull and Toro Rosso ran the Honda engine 

[V8 Fireworks]

juicy sushi, on 06 Mar 2017 - 18:10, said:

McLaren, as others have pointed out, need Honda to get it together.  Honda, provided they actually have the stomach to continue in F1, need McLaren too. 

 

Honda can jump across to Red Bull as soon as the PU is good 

 

Red Bull is the finest chassis builder in F1, and would be the best partner for Honda (of course Honda should purchase extensive on-car sponsorship, unlike the bizarre Infiniti/Renault divide).

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 06 March 2017 - 22:18.

[V8 Fireworks]

Szoelloe, on 05 Mar 2017 - 17:24, said:

What Red Bull has demonstrated so far is the opposite: You can have - maybe - the best chassis team, strong infrastructure, and and limitless spending capability if needed, but if you don't have the PU in-house, you can set your sight on the occasional win, but the WDC is out of reach.

 

You are ignoring the Red Bull will probably win the WDC and WCC this season. 

[ZOne]

V8 Fireworks, on 06 Mar 2017 - 22:19, said:

You are ignoring the Red Bull will probably win the WDC and WCC this season. 

 

Red Bull still has a much deeper and better relationship with Renault than Mercedes has to any customer. They actually get the latest and best in all the details.

[THEWALL]

Dennista, on 05 Mar 2017 - 22:55, said:

After cementing top 4 constructor status for 5 seasons in a row and repopulating sponsors roster, then look for a works deal with BMW. Do not go for an engine supplier who does not have track record in F1 and definitely not them being based outside of Europe unless they decided to relocate their f1 engine ops near Mclaren HQ.

?

[Dennista]

THEWALL, on 06 Mar 2017 - 23:05, said:

?

 

Who said Honda didn't, but they are based outside of Europe.  It's a NO from me.

 

Imagine McLaren Ferrari      Oh what a demise that would be, Ron would be having sleepless nights knowing his darling being subservient to the eternal enemy.

 

Seriously speaking I would opt for Renault and headhunt Newey back. I don't see any other car manufacturer stepping forward with the funds required to win in F1. Lets get Renault on board and some regular podiums.

Edited by Dennista, 07 March 2017 - 00:03.

[PlayboyRacer]

Dzeidzei, on 06 Mar 2017 - 13:08, said:

It is with sadness that we must inform our fans, but the Glory Days are over for McLaren F1 team.

 

I weap for the team that gave Mika his 2 wdc titles and looked so quick in the hands of Kimi. RIP

A bit melodramatic don't you think?

[THEWALL]

Dennista, on 07 Mar 2017 - 00:03, said:

Who said Honda didn't, but they are based outside of Europe.  It's a NO from me.

 

Imagine McLaren Ferrari      Oh what a demise that would be, Ron would be having sleepless nights knowing his darling being subservient to the eternal enemy.

 

Seriously speaking I would opt for Renault and headhunt Newey back. I don't see any other car manufacturer stepping forward with the funds required to win in F1. Lets get Renault on board and some regular podiums.

That would leave Rinoo, BMW, Pijoo and VW (as you said, McLaren-Ferrari is an oxymoron). The first are soon going to be the same as Merc, i.e., in theory not supplying the same engines to customers. VW has said repeatedly they don't want to go into F1 and seem to be divesting from motorsports in general as seen in WRC. What makes you think either BMW or Pijoo will produce something better than Honda, faster? The only option for McLaren is wait for Honda to get better or for the next rule change, hopefully one that does not make engines so complicated so that barriers to entry are lower and they can catch up quicker, whichever happens sooner....

[Vettelari]

I have a question that I asked in the McLaren forum without getting a response. This seems to be like the better place to ask,

Had McLaren not signed Honda, would they have maintained semi-works status (RBR-Renault) with Mercedes in 2014 and beyong or would they have been in Force India's shoes as a customer only?

If Honda and McLaren did manage to split, how quickly would we see a team sign up to be their works partner if they decided to carry on? Would it be a team at the front like RBR, midfield with nothing to lose like Williams, FI, or Haas, or would a backmarker like Sauber be most likely to take a bet like they did with BMW once more with Honda?

What do you think? I wasn't sure what kind of deal Mercedes was offering McLaren for the new engine regs before the Honda deal came together.

[minime]

Nathan, on 06 Mar 2017 - 21:42, said:

How can any independent engine maker pay the bills??

The same way any business pays the bills. 

[Flyhigh]

V8 Fireworks, on 06 Mar 2017 - 22:19, said:

You are ignoring the Red Bull will probably win the WDC and WCC this season. 

Lol, and you think Red Bull would be anywhere near wins like they have been with a Honda engine? Renault is light years ahead of Honda and has been for the last 3 years, there is no comparison on reliability and performance. I find it funny people talking about "if Mclaren wants to get back to the top they better stick with Honda" What top mate? After 3 years their best goals has been to be on q3. 

When they left Mercedes they were getting podiums with an unmotivated leading Button who never really shines alone without a strong team mate. The argument that they need to stick with Honda to get back to the top is ludicrous, after 3 years, nothing points to this being a remote possibility, not even consistent podiums seems to be in the near future. If you look at the partnership dynamics so far, there is nothing that points that Honda could ever overtake Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes the way things are going.

As Einstein said it, Madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different results. you can give it 3 years, 6 years, 9 years, 20 years, at some point, is clear that there is something fundamentally wrong in this partnership and hoping to get into q 3 as your best goal for a top team, would not even be close to be Williams like decadency, would be Titanic like. 

Mclaren only remains getting a lot of attention because they still have likely the best and most complete driver on the grid, Fernando Alonso. Once Alonso is gone, even the drama novelty will wear out very quickly, I can guarantee nobody will be filling threads with "no names" drivers at Mclaren, "hoping to be consistently on q3"