176 replies to this topic

[Prost1997T]

http://www.autosport...d-merge-in-2019

 

Given that Koiranen is potentially disappearing from GP3 leaving only 6 teams (as with FIA F3), this would be a sensible move. The fine details are yet to be determined, and the GP3 contracts expire in 2018 so nothing can happen until then.

Edited by Prost1997T, 13 March 2017 - 14:00.

[HistoryFan]

yes I think that would be awesome. Then we would have a lot of strong teams on the grid:

 

Prema Power

ART/Hitech (I think they would merge as they are already now working together)

Trident

Van Amersfoort

Arden

DAMS

Carlin

Campos

Motopark

Mücke

Jenzer

Koiranen

[Neno]

It would be good thing for F1. 

[Cornholio]

Logical move. Would hope the technical rules would be more F3 than GP3 though.

[superden]

Logical move. Would hope the technical rules would be more F3 than GP3 though.

It probably won't be the case though, will it.

[Cornholio]

It probably won't be the case though, will it.

 

Oh it was definitely said more in hope than expectation.

[Prost1997T]

Oh it was definitely said more in hope than expectation.

 

F3 isn't wide open, especially after the cost-cutting measures. It's almost de facto spec at this point with Dallara F312s and only 2 realistic engine choices.

 

From the unnamed sources quoted in the article, it's implied GP3 may fall under the axe.

[Brandz07]

Would definitely prefer more F3 than GP3 too. Sensible move either way.

[f1paul]

It would help both series, especially GP3 and also it will make things easier to see who's got the talent and who are the rising stars who we need to look out for. It will be better for F1 as well. Everyone's a winner!

[Prost1997T]

Formula 3 team managers comment on the benefits and drawbacks of a merger: https://www.motorspo...logical-887946/

[Muppetmad]

If they do merge, I really hope the races at Pau and Norisring remain part of the calendar, with a place found for drivers from the merger series in Macau as well.

Edited by Muppetmad, 01 April 2017 - 15:10.

[Marklar]

There we go

The selection of Formula One Group as the promoter for the new FIA Formula 3 Championship was approved. This will be an international championship hosted on the FIA Formula One World Championship platform from 2019, based around the following principles:

- An exclusive grid of no more than 30 cars

- Nine to ten events – two races per event

- Single make engine, chassis and tyres

- Cost control to include limited and regulated testing

A completely new car will be designed, including the highest safety standards for this category.

In addition to the two F3 regional championships certified by FIA starting in 2018, in the Americas and Asia, it is anticipated that F3 regional championships will be proposed by ASNs, which will again feature a single-make car with a single-make engine. The ASN will be free to choose from the homologated FIA suppliers, subject to compliance with the FIA regulations and cost guidelines.

The chassis and safety regulations for both the FIA F3 and FIA-certified regional F3 championships will be largely the same.

https://www.fia.com/...cil-decisions-9

Formula 1 to become the official promoter of the FIA F3 championship. From 2019 it will be on the support programme alongside F2 (replacing GP3) and there will be a new car #F1 #F3
Realistically it is GP3's rebranding as #F3 (like GP2 becoming F2) but what it really replaces is European F3, which has run separate to the #F1 calendar. Single make engine, chassis and tyres from 2019.
https://twitter.com/...2394613761?s=19

Edited by Marklar, 09 March 2018 - 17:53.

[William Hunt]

this is in fact the elimination of Formula 3 since it's just GP3 beiing renamed to F3, sad, it's not a merger really

Edited by William Hunt, 10 March 2018 - 02:12.

[balage06]

this is in fact the elimination of Formula 3 since it's just GP3 beiing renamed to F3, sad, it's not a merger really

 

Yeah, that's my impression too.

[johnmhinds]

this is in fact the elimination of Formula 3 since it's just GP3 beiing renamed to F3, sad, it's not a merger really

It was inevitable with the number of F3 level racing series out there.

[LiftAndCoast]

It's a shame, I liked having F3 races to watch on non-F1 weekends. As others said, this appears to effectively be a GP3 takeover of F3.

[Stephane]

Less and less series to discover new talents. Great.

[Anja]

The merger makes sense with shrinking grids in both F3 and GP3, but a shame about how it's done. F3 was a lot of fun to watch while GP3 seems rather soulless to me at the moment. 

[SirVanhan]

Congrats to the FIA for killing another great series (F3).

Edited by SirVanhan, 10 March 2018 - 10:20.

[William Hunt]

in reality, after the killing of World Serie by Renault and Formula 3, seats will be much more expensive now.

We already have a massive problem of rich kids in karting and single seatere buying their way up

 

We already have a problem of talented drivers not able to progress on the ladder (Max Defourny forced to stay another year in F. Renault Eurocup, Euroformula champion Harrison Scott forced to go to Formula Mazda in the US instead of F3 or G3 because he has not enough money like Defourny, ....)

 

The reason that seats will become more expensive in F2 & F3 (read GP2 & GP3) is that there will be less seats for less drivers, so demand will be higher as supply so it will be even more expensive thus good for rich drivers and not good for talents with not much money / sponsors behind them.... thank you FIA for making the problem worse

Edited by William Hunt, 10 March 2018 - 11:10.

[ArrowsLivery]

This sounds bad.

Congrats to the FIA for killing another great series (F3).

That is all Jean Todt is good for. By the looks of it these new cars will have halo too

[KWSN - DSM]

What does the EU think about all the series under F1 becoming de facto Dallara cars? Surely that is somehow anti-competition, if in tender and Dallara do not win it, then they will have a gripe of how they have been manufacturing for F3 for +30 years and now have been locked out meaning 'x' number of people laid off?

 

  

[noikeee]

I find it funny that people have argued for years and years that the junior ladder should be simplified, and condensed into easy-to-understand F1-F2-F3, and now that they finally achieve that, people finally realize... wait a minute there's some disadvantages with this system too. Better late than never I guess.

The complex ladder we had a few years ago with WSR, British F3, Euro F3 etc etc was annoyingly confusing to people that didn't follow it closely, but gave plenty of chances to plenty of drivers, and promoted diversity. Personally, I preferred it that way.

[KWSN - DSM]

I likely do not remember correctly, but think in 1970ies becoming aware of F1 and Autoracing we had

 

F-Ford

F2000

F3

F2

F1

 

That was the progression ladder with F2 sort of being bypassed more and more, with drivers going straight from F3 to F1. I am perfectly fine with an aligned ladder, they can call the classes what ever they want, that they have gone back to the traditional class names after various other (stupid) ones is good.

 

The only problem I have is the spec cars, lay down the rules and let any manufacturer or garage tinkerer build cars according to them. While following the sport I have seen

 

Van Diemen, Lola, Reynard, Quest, Swift, Vector, Mygale, Ray winning championships in Formula Ford

March, Ralt, Reynard, Dallara, Lola, Anson, Martini, Mygale winning championships in F3

March, Toleman, Ralt, winning championships in F2

 

Give me constructor diversity and a smaller ladder works with me.

 

[HistoryFan]

that's the end of the Macau GP for Formla 3.

[noikeee]

I likely do not remember correctly, but think in 1970ies becoming aware of F1 and Autoracing we had

F-Ford
F2000
F3
F2
F1

That was the progression ladder with F2 sort of being bypassed more and more, with drivers going straight from F3 to F1. I am perfectly fine with an aligned ladder, they can call the classes what ever they want, that they have gone back to the traditional class names after various other (stupid) ones is good.

The only problem I have is the spec cars, lay down the rules and let any manufacturer or garage tinkerer build cars according to them. While following the sport I have seen

Van Diemen, Lola, Reynard, Quest, Swift, Vector, Mygale, Ray winning championships in Formula Ford
March, Ralt, Reynard, Dallara, Lola, Anson, Martini, Mygale winning championships in F3
March, Toleman, Ralt, winning championships in F2

Give me constructor diversity and a smaller ladder works with me.

Constructor diversity in junior series died about 15 years ago. It's been all Dallaras for an absolute lifetime now.

[Prost1997T]

Constructor diversity in junior series died about 15 years ago. It's been all Dallaras for an absolute lifetime now.

 

In FIA-sanctioned series? Yes. Formula Ford is still non-spec chassis.

[KWSN - DSM]

Constructor diversity in junior series died about 15 years ago. It's been all Dallaras for an absolute lifetime now.

 

On track, not in rules. 

 

Nothing would have stopped me from designing and fielding DSM F3 cars, battling it out with Dallara for supremacy, it was a Mygale which powered Agostini to the Italian F3 Championship in 2012.

 

I understand how few success stories I can dig out (if I can find any), the point is I could have if I wanted to, that avenue is being closed to the detriment of autoracing, auto race engineering, and talent development of auro racing drivers.

 

[noikeee]

Ok fair enough, but the reality is that it's just not viable anymore to have proper constructor competition in junior series. The public interest just isn't there anymore to justify it, and the gap to F1 is far too gigantic for teams to use it as a platform to learn how to build cars.

[KWSN - DSM]

Ok fair enough, but the reality is that it's just not viable anymore to have proper constructor competition in junior series. The public interest just isn't there anymore to justify it, and the gap to F1 is far too gigantic for teams to use it as a platform to learn how to build cars.

 

I am going to sound pedantic or something like that.

 

The viability is as usual the poor rules and regulations written by the rule makers, F3 had become way way way too expensive, they keep wringing their hands over the escalating cost in F1, they should start by looking at classes which could in the old days be run by a small group of friends from a garage, which is now super tech at ever increasing cost. I can not blame a well funded driver to have drives funded, and in theory talent will float to the top funded or not.

 

I have seen numbers like $800 for a driver to fund a GP3 season, that is about a million and a half for a team, and in a spec series. There used to be a market, there used to be competition between manufacturers I can not accept (well do not want to accept) this could not still be the case without cutting the balls of what it takes to be a Formula Racing driver.

 

The degradation of the junior formulas is ALSO a reason for the malaise affecting F1, which do not exist in a vacuum, it needs a full flowering and sound undergrowth to thrive from, the powers in place are cutting at the branches like the teams are in F1.

 

It's a shame that you are correct.

 

 

 

 

 

[GenJackRipper]

Wouldn't it be better to have F4 as regional series and perhaps F5 as national series?

F1 (Global)
F2 (Global)
F3 (Global)
F4 (Continental)
F5 (National)

Sort of like football leages; the one's at the top are national and the further down you get, the more local they are.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Seems sensible and logical.

Means it definitely won’t happen.

[Kalmake]

Wouldn't it be better to have F4 as regional series and perhaps F5 as national series?

F1 (Global)
F2 (Global)
F3 (Global)
F4 (Continental)
F5 (National)

Sort of like football leages; the one's at the top are national and the further down you get, the more local they are.

F is a car spec. It doesn't make sense to have a different car based on how international the competitions is.

[balage06]

Is there any info about the new car yet?

[BuddyHolly]

Watching GP3 now and I'm thinking why do these cars look really good?

 

2-3 mins later, ohhh yes, no damn halo.

[thegamer23]

Brilliant race in GP3, brilliant!

My faith on this circuit is a little bit restored!

[balage06]

I've just noticed this article from yesterday:

https://www.autospor...rent-gp3-engine

 

So it looks like the new international F3 car will feature the current GP3 engine and gearbox, and Dallara is working on "updates" for the chassis. Based on these rumours, I think it is more and more likely that they will simply rename GP3 to F3, which is a bit of a shame, I like the current F3 formula much better.

[Sterzo]

So it looks like the new international F3 car will feature the current GP3 engine and gearbox, and Dallara is working on "updates" for the chassis. Based on these rumours, I think it is more and more likely that they will simply rename GP3 to F3, which is a bit of a shame, I like the current F3 formula much better.

Part of the charm of F3 is the miniature nature of the cars. Something built around a 3.4 engine is a bit clunky in comparison. It would be good to know how the cost will compare with current F3. The big concern is whether the new car will appeal to national and regional series. It would be a tragedy if (like GP3) you couldn't actually see it without going to a Grand Prix.

[balage06]

The big concern is whether the new car will appeal to national and regional series.

 

That shouldn't be a problem, because the FIA has already came up with the concept of "regional F3", which would be a smaller/cheaper/less powerful formula. 

 

Tatuus and Mygale plan to return to the F3 market with their new cars for regional series:

 

https://www.autospor...et-with-new-car

 

https://www.autospor...raced-in-europe

Edited by balage06, 06 July 2018 - 16:18.

[Sterzo]

You're absolutely right, balage06, but I do see that as a problem. The essence of F3 used to be that you could take the same car to the European, British, or Italian series, and race it once off at Macau and Zandvoort. It would be good to see that restored. And if the GP supporting races are for a more powerful car than the regional ones, isn't that a perpetuation of the GP3 / F3 divide that we're supposed to be ending?

[HistoryFan]

I think the merged series is more a new GP3 with some F3 teams than a merge...

[Starchild]

But weren't there talks few weeks ago that current F3 is going to stay as well? Apparently it will just be rebranded F3 Euroseries, while GP3 will become F3 International or FIA F3 or something like that? There was an article on autosport saying that's likely scenario.

That would be perfect, both series would still exist, they are just going to change names and that's it.

It would be such shame if they completely kill current F3. Such a great car, great tracks and running outside of F1 weekend is also big plus for us feeder series fans...

Edited by Starchild, 06 July 2018 - 20:29.

[Jazza]

It would be a hassle, but it would make more sense to rename GP3 into F3, F3 into F4, and F4 into F5. It would make a clear ladder as well as an obvious step in formula performance. Having two F3’s is just confusing.

[balage06]

But weren't there talks few weeks ago that current F3 is going to stay as well? Apparently it will just be rebranded F3 Euroseries, while GP3 will become F3 International or FIA F3 or something like that?

 

But I'm wondering, if FIA changes the Formula 3 regs to make the GP3 car eligible, wouldn't the Euroseries have to either drop F3 from its name or switch to the regional F3 formula?

[PiperPa42]

If they are going to use the same (or very similar) cars they should both be called F3. Today you already have British F3, F3 European Championship, All Japan F3, Asian F3 etc.

[balage06]

You're absolutely right, balage06, but I do see that as a problem. The essence of F3 used to be that you could take the same car to the European, British, or Italian series, and race it once off at Macau and Zandvoort. It would be good to see that restored. And if the GP supporting races are for a more powerful car than the regional ones, isn't that a perpetuation of the GP3 / F3 divide that we're supposed to be ending?

 

I agree, with the F4 series being so popular, I'm not even sure if we really need this 'intermediate level' with the regional F3 concept. I'd prefer keeping the current F3 regs globally too.

[learningtobelost]

The selection of Formula One Group as the promoter for the new FIA Formula 3 Championship was approved. This will be an international championship hosted on the FIA Formula One World Championship platform from 2019, based around the following principles:

- An exclusive grid of no more than 30 cars

- Nine to ten events – two races per event

- Single make engine, chassis and tyres

- Cost control to include limited and regulated testing

- A completely new car will be designed, including the highest safety standards for this category.
 

 

Hah... every time! 

[Anja]

I'm not thrilled about this... Current F3 is fantastic and for some reason I just can't get even slightly excited about GP3. 

[balage06]

Some interesting new bits from italiaracing.net:

- the new international F3 car will be based on the Dallara F317 (the current Formula 3 chassis), but it will be equipped with the gearbox, engine and electronics from the current GP3 car and of course the halo, which will make it both significantly more powerful and also heavier

- but yet they want to make it cheaper (110.000€ compared to the current 116.000€ price of the F317)

- it looks like the Formula 3 Euro Series could be revived from 2019 with the current F3 regulations and it will remain a support series of DTM

- Japanese F3 and International F3 Open are also keen on keeping the current formula even beyond 2020, because switching to the 'FIA regional F3' concept would be a step back for them in terms of manufacturers and competition

[PiperPa42]

So basically giving GP3 the F3 chassis and renaming it with everything else staying the same? 

 

That'd be a way better outcome than I ever had imagined.