96 replies to this topic

[Jerem]

Currently in F1, penalties handed during races are usually time penalties, to be served during pitstops.

If you no longer need to pit, the time is added to your final time.

 

There used to be a time when penalties were usually drive-through or even stop-and-go.

 

Penalties should be a deterrent from (more or less) bad behavior on track. Sometimes, minor offences on track (i.e., nothing really dangerous) can impact heavily how the race unfolds.

 

This season, for example, 5s time penalties were handed to:

 - Hamilton for slowing down unnecesarily on pit entry in Bahrain

 - Wehrlein for driving the wrong side of the bollard on pit entry in Spain

 - Wehrlein for unsafe release in Monaco.

 

In all cases, arguably it was better to take the penalty than to abide by the rules. In the last case, Wehrlein emerging ahead of Button from the pits deeply impacted both drivers' races and ultimately led to a crash that impacted the whole field.

 

While I don't want penalties to be handed for any minor offence, I feel that they should also be severe enough that it can't be an advantage to serve the penalty rather than going by the rules.

 

What if, in one of the next races, Ferrari or Mercedes get their #2 driver ahead of the other team's #1 through unsafe release and use them as a roadblock?

 

So, do you want to see penalties served during the races (for example for offences that impact track position directly) or are you fine with how it is currently?

[Stumpy29]

Agree. Time penalties should be served as immediately after the ruling.

[SenorSjon]

In the Monaco case it is a bit odd that a loose wheel nets you hefty penalties, yet releasing a car in the path of another and introducing much more danger for pit crews and team brass at the wall is just a minor 5s penalty.

[Peat]

The 5s added to the next pitstop was a reaction to an over officious race control handing out penalties willy nilly, this was also during the period of multiple pit stops per race.

Now that they are only penalising the most blatant transgressions, and that every race more or less is a 1 stop strategy, the 5s penalty no longer serves it's purpose.

[Marklar]

It depends on what would happen if the FIA would just issue Drive Through penalties. If they would give DTs (which are more or less 20 s penalties) to in my opinion minor offences like above then I rather have them giving 5/10 s time penalties.

In all cases, arguably it was better to take the penalty than to abide by the rules.

In Hamiltons actually not. He lost time with what he did instead of gaining anything.

[PlatenGlass]

Races decided on aggregate timing are most unsatisfactory so whatever the penalty is, it shouldn't be allowed to just be added on at the end.

[HP]

It depends on what would happen if the FIA would just issue Drive Through penalties. If they would give DTs (which are more or less 20 s penalties) to in my opinion minor offences like above then I rather have them giving 5/10 s time penalties.

In Hamiltons actually not. He lost time with what he did instead of gaining anything.

Yup. that's most the time the real issue. Conclusions and decisions differ case by case. And then we get different approaches to penalties, which sometimes fit the offense, sometimes not.

 

Another way to met out penalties doesn't solve anything.

[markelov74]

Drive-Through Penalties are better. Actually punishes the driver and creates more entertainment for us, seeing Hamilton chagrge through the field in Bahrain would have been fun.

[Marklar]

Drive-Through Penalties are better. Actually punishes the driver and creates more entertainment for us, seeing Hamilton chagrge through the field in Bahrain would have been fun.

In this case it would have killed off the race actually, we would have never seen his charge against Vettel with a Drive Trough Penalty.

 

Again, I generally hate penalties. But if you are overregulating the sport you have to apply penalties for those who are breaking them. But giving harsh penalties for relatively minor offences is crap as well, especially if big offences are punished in the same way. So I am in favour of these time penalties actually, but as Peat explained they are not serving their purpose anymore as they originally did.

Edited by Marklar, 31 May 2017 - 07:50.

[Clatter]

It depends on what would happen if the FIA would just issue Drive Through penalties. If they would give DTs (which are more or less 20 s penalties) to in my opinion minor offences like above then I rather have them giving 5/10 s time penalties.

In Hamiltons actually not. He lost time with what he did instead of gaining anything.

I dont think an unsafe release is a minor offence, and as per Wehrleins example is akin to cutting a chicane to gain a place, and being allowed to keep it.

[Zava]

should be something different, like doing the pit straight (or the widest part of the track with less overtaking opportunities) with a delta speed in 3 laps after handing it out.

[markelov74]

In this case it would have killed off the race actually, we would have never seen his charge against Vettel with a Drive Trough Penalty.

 

Again, I generally hate penalties. But if you are overregulating the sport you have to apply penalties for those who are breaking them. But giving harsh penalties for relatively minor offences is crap as well, especially if big offences are punished in the same way. So I am in favour of these time penalties actually, but as Peat explained they are not serving their purpose anymore as they originally did.

 

But Hamilton was never going to catch Vettel by the end of the race. 

 

But giving 5 second penalties are now used for major offences. Such as causing a collision, which has very little impact on a drivers race.

[SophieB]

But Hamilton was never going to catch Vettel by the end of the race. 

 

But giving 5 second penalties are now used for major offences. Such as causing a collision, which has very little impact on a drivers race.

 

You were just lobbying for a drive through for going too slowly in the pitlane. 

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Here's a different approach for penalties that happen after a driver's last pit stop. Once the stewards make a time penalty public the team/driver in question nominate one of the future three laps to be the penalty lap. In this lap a certain sector has to be much slower than the previous few times. How much slower depends on the given penalty.

[markelov74]

You were just lobbying for a drive through for going too slowly in the pitlane. 

 

Yes I was. And afterwards I said that 5 second penalties are being used for 'major' offences too rather than just minor infraction. I believe that we should revert back when everything the driver's fault is penalised by a drive through penalty, but this should be clearly the driver in questions fault if he is to receive a penalty

[Marklar]

should be something different, like doing the pit straight (or the widest part of the track with less overtaking opportunities) with a delta speed in 3 laps after handing it out.

I wonder if the pace reducing for a few seconds penalty like in past Playstation games would work

I dont think an unsafe release is a minor offence, and as per Wehrleins example is akin to cutting a chicane to gain a place, and being allowed to keep it.

Unsafe release I agree on that. The others are minor to me

[SophieB]

Yes I was. And afterwards I said that 5 second penalties are being used for 'major' offences too rather than just minor infraction. I believe that we should revert back when everything the driver's fault is penalised by a drive through penalty, but this should be clearly the driver in questions fault if he is to receive a penalty

 

This sounds as silly as saying we should hand out lots more red cards in the misguided hope it will make football matches better than the reality of it killing a match.

[markelov74]

This sounds as silly as saying we should hand out lots more red cards in the misguided hope it will make football matches better than the reality of it killing a match.

 

When did I imply that? I just think that drive through penalties punish a driver for hurting someone else's race more than time penalties, and are more fair than let's just say, earning a five second penalty for barrel-rolling another car out of the lead and without no-one lese to challenge that driver, he goes on to win. Entertainment would be an after-effect of a drive through penalty and isn't a reasoning behind it.

[Marklar]

And then everyone will righfully criticise the FIA for destroying (it's almost never making the race better) the races by applying too many harsh and needless penalties. Rinse and repeat

[SophieB]

When did I imply that? 

 

When you advocated punishing Hamilton harder and said how it would made Bahrain better rather than being what it would have been, gameover.

[SenorSjon]

The unsafe release was a calculated risk. At least you have gained track position on a track like Monaco. 

[Rinehart]

The thing is an incident punished on say lap 1, but not served in terms of a penalty until say lap 40 or the end of the race, ignores the fact that this changes the impact not just for the punished driver, but also innocent fellow competitors. Personally I believe a punished competitor shouldn't have a strategic option on when to serve a penalty. 

[Jon83]

Agree. Time penalties should be served as immediately after the ruling.

 

Does it not then become a stop and go penalty?

[YoungGun]

The thing is an incident punished on say lap 1, but not served in terms of a penalty until say lap 40 or the end of the race, ignores the fact that this changes the impact not just for the punished driver, but also innocent fellow competitors. Personally I believe a punished competitor shouldn't have a strategic option on when to serve a penalty. 

 

Considering the driver was released because of the "TEAM'S" lack of focus, I don't think that's fair.

Edited by YoungGun, 31 May 2017 - 08:52.

[Rinehart]

Considering the driver was released because of the "TEAM'S" lack of focus, I don't think that's fair.

Are you talking about a specific incident? I'm answering the general question posed by the OP. 

[Kristian]

Its a difficult one. The 5s penalties were introduced to stop minor transgressions ruining someone's race, but in Monaco you saw a penalised driver Wehrlein stay out and ruin Button's race, who then made a rash move probably out of frustration. If he'd had a drive through, both would have likely finished the race.

 

Maybe there could be a 'sin bin' where there's a safe patch of track where a driver can drive through at pitlane speed, but not the whole pitlane - at most modern tracks this could be achievable. But it couldn't be applied to all tracks, so this idea would need a lot of work to make happen (and safely). 

 

Overall though I think the system is fine as it is. 

[Bart]

With all the VSC stuff and drive-to deltas on the steering wheel, it should be possible to make somebody serve a 5-second penalty by simply slowing down on track off-line on the main straight at the first moment it's safe to do so (as if you got a blue flag) and driving to a set minimum delta that incorporates the penalty, thereby putting them in the correct position as soon as possible. With DRS, consider the difference between battling a car that's 6 seconds ahead of you and has a 5-second penalty but you can't use DRS, versus one that's just 1 second ahead of you because it's in the right place.

[jrv_t644e]

Of the examples, the only one that seemed ultimately problematic was the Wehrlein unsafe release.

Perhaps in addition to the 5s penalty (or perhaps instead of it) it might be better to require the driver to relinquish the position, as they are required to do after cutting a corner for example.

[CPR]

Can the stewards in general order a driver to let another driver overtake them?

 

Seems like that should have been done in the case of Wehrlein's unsafe release.

[Anderis]

The problem is that we can never know in advance how much of a gain will it be to break the rules, because it all depends on a situation in a given race. The point of F1 is not to cover a track as fast as possisble, but to do it faster than your opponents and you can't predict what will your opponents do.

 

I think it's impossible to always impose penalties that will be severe enough to ensure any gains won't be achieved from breaking the rules and not too severe to ensure that drivers won't be heavily compromised by offences that caused little or no gain in their race situation. Unless we want to give penalties only after the race, considering how much of advantage that thing really turned out to be. But then people will be angry that stewards are inconsistent and their subjective judgement has too much of an impact on race results. And that you don't even know what position you're finishing on if there are some drivers ahead of you under an investigation by the stwerads.

Edited by Anderis, 31 May 2017 - 10:03.

[Kristian]

Of the examples, the only one that seemed ultimately problematic was the Wehrlein unsafe release.

Perhaps in addition to the 5s penalty (or perhaps instead of it) it might be better to require the driver to relinquish the position, as they are required to do after cutting a corner for example.

 

That thought occurred to me, but then its difficult to quantify how to implement the penalty - if the driver behind (who was wronged) suddenly pits, then does the guilty driver have to wait for the next one down the road, who could be 15s away? Or wait ofr the pitted driver to catch him? 

 

Penalties need to be designed in a way so they are broadly consistent in every situation. 

[Dalton007]

Easy solution to unsafe release: swap places within 3 laps.

[Clatter]

That thought occurred to me, but then its difficult to quantify how to implement the penalty - if the driver behind (who was wronged) suddenly pits, then does the guilty driver have to wait for the next one down the road, who could be 15s away? Or wait ofr the pitted driver to catch him?

Penalties need to be designed in a way so they are broadly consistent in every situation.

Penalties need to be consistent, but the also need to be servere enough to be a deterrent. A driver would happily take a 5 seconds drive penalty in exchange for track position at monaco.

[Prost1997T]

An unsafe release is a drive-through penalty in several other series I follow.

[jrv_t644e]

That thought occurred to me, but then its difficult to quantify how to implement the penalty - if the driver behind (who was wronged) suddenly pits, then does the guilty driver have to wait for the next one down the road, who could be 15s away? Or wait ofr the pitted driver to catch him? 

 

Penalties need to be designed in a way so they are broadly consistent in every situation. 

 

If its an unsafe release, then unless there was an immediate problem.. the chance of the wronged driver pitting again immediately would be fairly minimal.. if they did, go with the 5s penalty

 

If the unsafe release was so unsafe that they caused the damage to the wronged driver's car, which causes an immediate second pitstop.. absolutely make the penalised driver have to wait the extra time for him to pass again. (Maybe a bit harsh but its hard to have sympathy if someone swipes you in the pits)

Edited by jrv_t644e, 31 May 2017 - 10:43.

[Clatter]

Easy solution to unsafe release: swap places within 3 laps.

That should be in addition to a penalty for the danger caused.

[PayasYouRace]

Of the examples, the only one that seemed ultimately problematic was the Wehrlein unsafe release.
Perhaps in addition to the 5s penalty (or perhaps instead of it) it might be better to require the driver to relinquish the position, as they are required to do after cutting a corner for example.

I was just thinking along those lines. There would be situations where a position penality would be more effective than a time penalty.

[Kristian]

If its an unsafe release, then unless there was an immediate problem.. the chance of the wronged driver pitting again immediately would be fairly minimal.. if they did, go with the 5s penalty

 

If the unsafe release was so unsafe that they caused the damage to the wronged driver, which causes an immediate second pitstop.. absolutely make him wait til that stop too.

 

I was talking about 5s for penalties which weren't related to an unsafe release. 

 

The penalty system should be both consistent but also simple - having a different penalty for every offence would be horribly confusing for competitors, stewards, commentators and fans alike. 

[jrv_t644e]

I was talking about 5s for penalties which weren't related to an unsafe release. 

 

The penalty system should be both consistent but also simple - having a different penalty for every offence would be horribly confusing for competitors, stewards, commentators and fans alike. 

 

Ahh, bit of crossed wires there.

There kind of are different penalties though currently. there is also some inconsistency in their application.

 

I guess its a case of you give up the place... or you get something a lot harsher than 5s... drive through perhaps. Something that means you dont get to keep track position.

Edited by jrv_t644e, 31 May 2017 - 10:48.

[PayasYouRace]

To borrow from another sport, in those case snooker, have a set of possible penalties with the worst outcome taken.

The case study being hitting the wrong ball, where the penalty is 4, the value of the object ball or the value of the ball struck. So in F1 you could have a penalty of, for example, 1 race position, or 5 seconds, whichever is worse. Something along those lines could be an answer.

[muramasa]

　

i have stupid proposal...."penalty lane".....unsafely released drivers must drive through penalty lane designated each track...for example Suzuka, it's the little kink excursion line at 200R...

 

 

 

...no, either going slow at straight or relinquish position is better....

[SophieB]

To borrow from another sport, in those case snooker, have a set of possible penalties with the worst outcome taken.

The case study being hitting the wrong ball, where the penalty is 4, the value of the object ball or the value of the ball struck. So in F1 you could have a penalty of, for example, 1 race position, or 5 seconds, whichever is worse. Something along those lines could be an answer.

 

Not a reason to put the mockers on it or anything but you know F1's natural laws of chaos being what they are mean that it's inevitable some driver going to get the notionally harsh punishment and have it ends up be actually no significant deal while someone else gets the lenient punishment only somehow it completely wrecks their race.

[Marklar]

　

i have stupid proposal...."penalty lane".....unsafely released drivers must drive through penalty lane designated each track...for example Suzuka, it's the little kink excursion line at 200R...

 

 

 

...no, either going slow at straight or relinquish position is better....

We are taking inspiration from Biathlon now.....

 

I like that idea more than the "Drive slower for a few seconds on the straight" proposal, because that one is definitely too dangerous.

[SenorSjon]

A car coming back on track isn't?

[Retrofly]

We need joker laps!

[Marklar]

A car coming back on track isn't?

It's the same as for pit stops, no? Just that it's shorter. It's all a matter of how you would implement something like that.

[Ruusperi]

I think different type of time penalties give us more variety. Previously drivers used to receive equal penalties from both major and minor offences. That was unfair. While drive-through penalty affects one's race heavily, a 5 second penalty is more of a reprimand, which is often sufficient for minor offences like going to the pit too late by cutting the white line etc.

 

IMO, most of the penalties are actually worthless, because they are penalizing for mistakes and human errors. Mistakes happen even if one would be threatened with instant ban for life from racing. That's why I would never give penalty for a collision, because 99% of the time they happen by accident. It sucks if the other driver retires due to that, but so be it. Hardly anyone breaks the rules on purpose, but if that's the case, instead of time penalty the driver receives stop-and-go penalty, black flag or even point exclusion.

[Fastcake]

But giving 5 second penalties are now used for major offences. Such as causing a collision, which has very little impact on a drivers race.

That does appear to be a problem with the penalty system. Time penalties were introduced because of a perception that drive throughs were occasionally too harsh for certain offences, while reprimands were ignored by teams who had increasingly disregarded the race officials. The stewards however have been using a five second time penalty as a basic punishment for almost every offence, upending the notion that it should be for smaller, more technical offences.

[muramasa]

It's the same as for pit stops, no? Just that it's shorter. It's all a matter of how you would implement something like that.

going slow at straight is practically same as coming in or out or pitlane too, isnt it, also straight is perhaps safest place to encounter car issue and go slow, so......remember Alonso's engine trouble at Indy500?!?!  

maybe the problem of going slow on home straight is about how much is good enough, and policing. For DT and whatever time added penalty (as well as something penalty lane), what you get is what you get, it's unequivocal and there is no controversy regardless of extent of racing damage you suffer, plus policing is easy but something like going slow on straight may cause some unfairness and controversy.

(problem of relinquishing position btw is always the case where the driver who should be given back position gets overtaken by a 3rd car before the offender gives the position back....which often happens)

.....I came up with another stoopid proposal.....ban the MGU-K assist on the home straight as penalty.....or ban MGU-K for an entire lap or two.....that way at least policing is easy, plus there will be actions! .......I've come up with some other stoopid proposals but that's really stupid so I'm not telling.. (I'm good at coming up with sth stupid )........

[P123]

The time penalties are generally fine. I don't think we need any more means of penalizing drivers than are already available. People want the stewards to be consistent but here we have folks calling for a variety of different penalties to be applied.

The unsafe release of Wehrlein should have resulted in a position swap, as the motivation behind the move was to maintain position. 5s can be made up, but if you are going to lose the position anyway then that takes away the motivation for the team to play chicken in the pitlane.