19 replies to this topic

[William Hunt]

At the time when he was in F1 I never rated him highly, even though he had beaten the quicker Ralt's of Thackwell and Nielsen to the F3000 title in '85.

 

But looking more closely at his pace in F1, sure he was not in the same league as Thierry Boutsen's immense talent, but he did score Arrows' single points finish in '86 (after moving there from Osella, Enzo Osella had tried to keep him threatening with legal action against Arrows & Danner) but he was really not that far off Boutsen's pace or Brundle's pace at Zakspeed, Brundle was also a highly gifted driver and extremely quick over 1 lap.

 

Danner brought the Zakspeed to the finish line on no less than 6 occassions and each time not that far from the points (twice 7th, once 8th and three times 9th).

 

Then at Rial he had that magnificent drive to a fourth place in Phoenix 1989 and completely dominated his (admittedly very slow) teammate Volker Weidler.

 

Danner was linked to a lot of teams in the silly season in those years, he came close to signing for several teams but never got a new chance after '89 even though he had that 4th place in a small car to show.

 

For 1988 Danner came very very close to signing with Larrousse-Lola, when that didn't materialise he came close to signing for Tyrrell but they made a deal with Julian Bailey (who was dissapointing to say the least, he was damn slow, in the Lotus too).

 

It's a shame Ken Tyrrel didn't opt for Danner instead of Bailey. I would have loved to have seen if either Palmer or Danner came out on top (my bet is on Palmer but certainly Danner would have been a lot closer to him as Bailey ever was, I think Palmer and Danner were similar in talent, Jonathan probably a little bit better, he was a very clean driver).

 

Zakspeed where Danner had lost out to Bernd Schneider and Piercarlo Ghinzani (he came with backing from Fondmetal which is the main reason they took him) the re-hired him as a test driver and reserve driver after race 2.

Erich Zakowski thought very highly of Danner's testing abbility and feedback so he was back as a tester.

 

To think that Zakspeed came also very close to signing Andrea de Cesaris for '88 instead of the slower Ghinzani.... admittedly the car was hopeless anyhow and Ghinzani & Schneider did a decent job that year.
 

Then halfway 1988 Eurobrun sought out to replace the underperforming Oscar Larrauri and they signed an actual race contract with Danner starting from the German Grand Prix.

But after a seat fitting Danner said the car was too small for his length and he didn't have enough room in the Eurobrun to feel comfortamble so they canceled that contract.

 

It's a pitty Danner missed out on the opportunities at Larrouse-Calmels-Lola and Tyrrell, his carreer might have looked different, possibly that would have allowed him to stay a little bit longer in F1.

 

Now looking back at his F1 carreer I still don't rate him that highly but I can conclude that he was at least a competent driver, decent enough to be in F1 and probably better as I gave him credit for at the time but he was never going to set the world on fire. I think Danner was very similar in talent to someone like Marc Surer.

 

Christian Danner is a F1 commentator for RTL nowadays. Now I always watch the F1 races live on the Belgian channel but sometimes I switch to RTL during the races just to hear Danner's voice (although admittedly the Belgian commentator is actually nicer to listen to, he has a much more enthusiastic voice).

I wonder (that is after all why I created this post), how do people rate him here?

And do people have stories of particular memories of him?

Edited by William Hunt, 08 June 2017 - 15:05.

[E1pix]

We witnessed that 4th at Phoenix and were most impressed.

That speaks to a high talent level, and I think we armchairers tend to be too hard on lesser performances without knowing all the facts. Being fast in any old car is nigh impossible, and there's a hundred factors that allow success in -- most of them out of a driver's control.

I spent a few minutes with Christian at "our" hospitality area at Road America in 1992. It was clear he wanted to escape his own team -- and likely some encroaching demons in realizing a career waning -- but he was a nice guy. I actually felt quite sorry for him, unrealized dreams can haunt for a lifetime.

[William Hunt]

If you look at his F3000 title, he beat Thackwell, Pirro, Nielsen, the Ferté brothers, Tarquini, Capelli, Tassin, Streiff, Hytten, Grouillard, Dumfries, Moreno.... to that title, that's a pretty impressive list and his car was inferior to the Ralt's of Thackwell & Nielsen.

 

Danner's teammate, the Swede Tomas Kaiser, was nowhere near him. And he won that title with 4 wins out of 11 races, impressive.

And again he wasn't far off the pace of Boutsen & Brundle, two top quality drivers, and he even beat them from time to time so it's safe to say that he was better as people give him credit for.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 June 2017 - 22:22.

[pacificquay]

Was a bit spooked for a second there - seeing a thread on this forum with just a person's name as the title tends to mean the worst!

[E1pix]

Understood, but tiresomely redundant to have "Name Name, Alive and Well." ;-)

[William Hunt]

Was a bit spooked for a second there - seeing a thread on this forum with just a person's name as the title tends to mean the worst!

 

Sorry about that, maybe an admin can change the title in 'Christian Danner's F1 carreer' since I don't think forum users can edit thread titles

[KWSN - DSM]

Any driver winning a F3000, GP2, F2 title is a good driver. I agree that Danner was better than we remember him, I think of him in about the Palmer level. I can see I rate Ghinzani higher than you.

 

[AJCee]

Like many, in a top Formula One car his results would have looked so much better.  He always struck me as a decent bloke and was clearly more than competent. No one 'lucks' into Championships, indeed to be a 'lucky race winner' you have to be first of the rest when the misfortune strikes the chap in front. Danner was the kind of driver that I would point to to illustrate that it really matters what equipment you have at your disposal.

 

Love the Mexican GP story Peter!

[ensign14]

The obvious problem was he was too tall.  Didn't he try to move from Osella to Arrows at Canada and had to move back because he wouldn't fit?

[Cornholio]

Then at Rial he had that magnificent drive to a fourth place in Phoenix 1989 and completely dominated his (admittedly very slow) teammate Volker Weidler.

 

 

While he'll be in the (F1) history books bundled in with the other serial DN(P)Qers of that late 80s/early 90s era, the thing is I don't think Weidler was that bad either, quick enough to win Le Mans in 1991 and by all accounts stacking up well against Herbert and Gachot in the same car, and developing a good career for himself in the very strong Japanese scene when ear problems forced him to retire prematurely. Of course that itself reflects well on Danner too, as he was well ahead on pace. I do wonder generally what happened at Rial that year, as they'd been very promising in their first year with de Cesaris driving.

[PeterElleray]

The obvious problem was he was too tall.  Didn't he try to move from Osella to Arrows at Canada and had to move back because he wouldn't fit?

No he moved from Osella to Arrows in the motorhome only (when we went through his car setup)  and moved back into the Osella again before he drove the car because Enzo and Ollie couldn't agree terms that quickly !

[funformula]

The highlight of that Austrian GP weekend was not his 6th place, but his arrival in mock SS regalia prior to first practice. Try doing that today to get a laugh! Even then it was a bit unsettling but we were in Austria afterall, and not Germany, which apparently makes a difference (or did then)...

Wow...never heard of that one. He would've been tared and feathered by the German press to say the least if this had been leaked. Better be careful when opening Pandoras box.

Regarding the Rial in 1989 and the comparison with Weidler my understanding was that the Rial had a (very) weak/flexing monocoque (becoming weaker every race) which gave almost no response to setup changes. Weidler always preferred a very stiff setup and therefore was lost from day one.

[William Hunt]

His length was only a problem at Eurobrun (in '88) where he had to cancel a contract because he didn't fit well in the car, it was never an issue at Arrows I believe.

[William Hunt]

I can see I rate Ghinzani higher than you.

 

 

Nice that there are people out there rating Ghinzani

As a kid I always liked Ghinzani because he never gave up and kept racing in the slowest car and he was a good sportscar driver.
But at Toleman in '85 he really got totally crushed by Teo Fabi, that's the main reason that I don't rate him (Fabi was bloody quick though, I remember that he scored a pole at Nürburgring in the Toleman, truly a fenomenal driver), he also didn't go well at Ligier.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 June 2017 - 22:01.

[ensign14]

Peter Charles was on a par with Arnoux at Ligier.  And he was better in sportscars than Fabi; winning races whereas Teo cost Patrese the title by not being able to hold on to a big lead.  His problem with his Toleman stint was that he was in there half-way through the season with a team that had fielded one car for the first part. 

[nexfast]

I also rate Ghinzani higher than most. If we use the same type of comparison as the one used to rate Danner, then we can say he beat De Angelis, Piquet, Alboreto, Daly, Nielsen, Baldi, Elgh, etc., (none of them slow) when he won his two F3 championships (European and Italian). I admit he was never particular impressive in F1 outings but he was constantly driving  uncompetitive machinery. If I remember correctly the only one of his teammates whoever scored points was Arnoux in the Ligier and then a single one... Apologies for going out of thread.

[KWSN - DSM]

This is me and Ghinzani in an earlier thread (apologies for wearing of on a tangent.) http://forums.autosp...aren/?p=6501500

 

[Stephen W]

Any driver winning a F3000, GP2, F2 title is a good driver. I agree that Danner was better than we remember him, I think of him in about the Palmer level. I can see I rate Ghinzani higher than you.

 

 

I would rate Danner a lot higher than Palmer. Christian was a good driver and an excellent F1 Number 2 but wouldn't have been my choice as team leader. 

[Rupertlt1]

Won in Pau in F3000, surely a good indication of talent. Known to the Brits as "Christmas Dinner." RGDS RLT

[Peter Morley]

If you look at his F3000 title, he beat Thackwell, Pirro, Nielsen, the Ferté brothers, Tarquini, Capelli, Tassin, Streiff, Hytten, Grouillard, Dumfries, Moreno.... to that title, that's a pretty impressive list and his car was inferior to the Ralt's of Thackwell & Nielsen.

 

Danner's teammate, the Swede Tomas Kaiser, was nowhere near him. And he won that title with 4 wins out of 11 races, impressive.

And again he wasn't far off the pace of Boutsen & Brundle, two top quality drivers, and he even beat them from time to time so it's safe to say that he was better as people give him credit for.

 

His F3000 performance in 1985 improved when they discovered that disconnecting the rear anti-roll bar improved the car's performance, which suggests that the chassis was too flexible!

 

Performances in those days were considerably more variable than nowadays, presumably due to the lack of testing, data logging/telemetry etc. making it harder to find the optimal setup - particularly for those with smaller budgets (e.g. all but a handful of top teams).

 

Given the people he beat and the places he won at, such as Pau, suggest that Christian was definitely at the upper end of the talent ladder but he probably didn't have the extra bit of talent that the superstars have.