64 replies to this topic

[RCH]

I am not normally around on this forum so forgive me if I am treading old ground.

 

Seems to me that given the recent result at Le Mans and the dearth of LMP1 cars in general something needs to be done. The fact is the whole hybrid business has become far, far too expensive. I don't know how these things work but rather than playing around with gimmicks like running for a kilometre on electric power only (virtually unenforceable I would think) shouldn't the ACO be banging on the doors of the likes of Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Mazda and Mercedes asking what they need to get them out there racing? Peugeot have already said they will come in if the costs are reduced. Perhaps the hybrid element should be reduced (as a born again philistine I would say banned but I suppose progress is progress ) and adjustments made to non hybrid rules to put them on an equal footing and stopping the privateer only concept.

 

Or failing that how about a team of Ginettas with Jaguar badged engines run by Ecurie Ecosse? Or maybe a Ferrari developed car, badged Alfa Romeo run by a revamped Auto Delta? Whatever, and nothing personal, Porsche and Audi have won far too often, time for newcomers or old stagers to get Into the act.

[V8 Fireworks]

RCH, on 23 Jun 2017 - 11:26, said:

Peugeot have already said they will come in if the costs are reduced. Perhaps the hybrid element should be reduced (as a born again philistine I would say banned but I suppose progress is progress ) and adjustments made to non hybrid rules to put them on an equal footing and stopping the privateer only concept.

 

 

Yes, I think they should require the manufacturers to run under the LMP2 rules, perhaps a LMP2a subset... it would suck for Gibson to no longer have a mandated monopoly, but oh well  .  Either they could use the Gibson engine, or use their own engine IF they sell equivalent engines to competitors (privateers) for a  price cap (somehow would need to parity match their engines to the standard Gibson engine too I guess, to stop a development war).  As a LMP2 constructor the manufacturers need to homologate their chassis and sell it to privateers when requested too, under the price cap price.   

 

Of course hybrids "in the bin" -- that's a given. 

 

What do we want?  30-40 cars in the outright Le Mans class.  When do we want it? At some point. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 23 June 2017 - 12:47.

[maximilian]

Manufacturers now have a real - and much less costly - alternative to enter, that is Formula E.  Many of the names you mentioned will be or are already in FE.  It's a better business model (see Audi: drop WEC, step up FE).

 

So I am firmly in the "abolish LMP1" camp.  At some point?  Naw, how about NOW?

[redreni]

LPM1 will only become viable again if Porsche renews its commitment or other manufacturers enter. That's probably unlikely so maybe best to knock it on the head, but then we'll probably start to see works-backed LMP2 efforts dominating. At least LMP2 privateers have the option of switching to LMP3.

 

I do think any changes need to be announced in advance and must have a sensible lead-in time. Doing things "NOW" isn't actually a very satisfactory way of treating the entrants.

[maximilian]

redreni, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:13, said:

 

I do think any changes need to be announced in advance and must have a sensible lead-in time. Doing things "NOW" isn't actually a very satisfactory way of treating the entrants.

 

Absolutely correct, of course.  I do feel that now would be a great time to make that decision (to be implemented probably not before 2019?) while the memory of this year's Le Mans LMP1 debacle is still fresh.

[V8 Fireworks]

redreni, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:13, said:

LPM1 will only become viable again if Porsche renews its commitment or other manufacturers enter. That's probably unlikely so maybe best to knock it on the head, but then we'll probably start to see works-backed LMP2 efforts dominating. At least LMP2 privateers have the option of switching to LMP3.

 

 

If I was a privateer I would rather stay in LMP2... If it was like Indycar or NASCAR where privateers have reasonably competitive equipment and have a reasonable chance to keep pressure on the top teams.

[Vettelari]

I am still curious to see what will take place if Porsche decide to drop out of LMP1 after Toyota just re-affirmed their commitment to LMP1 for another few years. Unless I missed it, Porsche have been mum about their WEC plans for next season.

 

Having Toyota vs. themselves in the top category along with non hybrids (WITH DRS!) that will still be obviously slower than the factory team spending $150 million on their LMP1 program is cringe worthy to think about. Something must be done to assure some serious competition to Toyota if Porsche leaves. Even if that means seeing non BOP'd DPI type cars in LMP1 next year tagged as Mazdas and Cadillacs. Toyota beating SMP-Gibson, Alpine, and Ginetta will not bring a whole lot of interest, IMO.

[RCH]

Formula E???? You are kidding I hope! The sooner Formula Scalextric disappears the better!

 

Seriously what on earth are Jaguar doing there? Mooching around at the back, attracting bad publicity if anyone notices that is. Why not rebadge the effort as Land Rover? Given Mahindra are in there, seems a better fit to me. Meanwhile Jaguar needs to be at Le Mans and Le Mans needs high profile names like Jaguar, Ferrari, Mercedes.

Edited by RCH, 23 June 2017 - 14:18.

[redreni]

maximilian, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:26, said:

Absolutely correct, of course.  I do feel that now would be a great time to make that decision (to be implemented probably not before 2019?) while the memory of this year's Le Mans LMP1 debacle is still fresh.

 

I don't disagree. I'm not sure I agree it was a debacle, though.

 

It was a bit of a disastrous race for anyone who had spent zillions of € on entering LMP1 hybrids on the basis that it would enhance their reputation for quality engineering and reliability and help them sell high performance hybrid road cars.

 

For the spectator I'd argue it was a throwback, and not necessarily in a bad way. The race was fought between an LMP2 tortoise and two LMP1-H hares and was essentially won on serviceability in the end.

[bruznic]

maximilian, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:00, said:

Manufacturers now have a real - and much less costly - alternative to enter, that is Formula E. Many of the names you mentioned will be or are already in FE. It's a better business model (see Audi: drop WEC, step up FE).

But the racing is so much better in WEC. But to be honest I'm not against hybrid technology. I think WEC has done it like it should be. F1 could learn a thing or two.
The Audi dropout is sad. But if there hadn't been the VW scandal, they'd still be competing in WEC. (im 99% sure of that 😁)
The freedom with their rules towards engines would be something if they'd give the same kind of deal to f1. Why does it have to be a 1.6 V6?
Let the teams decide what they want to do to get to a certain Joules output level.

[Jon83]

RCH, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:53, said:

Formula E???? You are kidding I hope! The sooner Formula Scalextric disappears the better!

 

Seriously what on earth are Jaguar doing there? Mooching around at the back, attracting bad publicity if anyone notices that is. Why not rebadge the effort as Land Rover? Given Mahindra are in there, seems a better fit to me. Meanwhile Jaguar needs to be at Le Mans and Le Mans needs high profile names like Jaguar, Ferrari, Mercedes.

 

This - utterly tedious stuff. 

[Cornholio]

I know I'll be in the minority but I've really liked the LMP1-Hs in recent years, when pretty much every other category (increasingly F1 included) is concerned only with cost cutting and "close racing" at the expense of everything else, it was nice to see a category that felt more open and technologically free at least by modern standards, felt a bit more old school if nothing else.

 

And maybe those are the reasons its not sustainable but if it does die on its arse I'm not going to feel bad for enjoying it while it lasted.

 

I just hope if it does, then whatever rises from the ashes is at least an open category even if more tightly controlled (i.e. based on the LMP1 privateer regs, which while looking promising, need to wait and see what hits the track) , rather than those mind-numbingly dull LMP2s with a single (!) make of engine and four mandated choices of car. To be honest I'd even settle for the current LMP2 regulations but with anyone free to build a car or engine to the same rulebook.

 

DPi isn't much better either, maybe superficially more variety but from what I gather aero modifications are for styling purposes only then BOPped together. I get that BOP may be a necessary evil in production based racing where different cars have inherent strengths/weaknesses that can't be eliminated if they are to remain based on the road car, but it should never be necessary in formula or prototype racing. At least the standard LMP2 chassis cartel members have to stand or fall on the quality of their products relative to each other.

 

Specifically on the hybrids I've always liked them and never agreed that they go against the sport. I honestly couldn't give a damn about the tree-hugger angle, but I like the idea of taking energy that would otherwise be wasted and directing it into making a racing car go faster.

[Retrofly]

Get rod of LMP1, rename LMP2 to LMP1, sorted.

 

Seriously though, I'm new to WEC, this year was the first time I properly watch Le Mans, and while LMP1 was dramatic, it was a bit of a joke.

Only 2 manufacturers, with 1 privateer (which lasted 1 lap) and only 1 LMP1 car finishing.

 

If the hybrid engine is thing that's causing all the problems (Reliability, costs, Manufacture interest) then just get rid of it.

 

Leave the electric stuff to Formula E,  and continue with ICE's until Hyrbrid is cheap and reliable enough.

 

The LMP1 Prototype cars are amazing to watch, but we need more of them and they need to not break down.

[ArrowsLivery]

If Porsche drop out after this season, I wonder if the ACO would be desperate enough to attempt to get Pug in LMP1 with their old 908. I know the current equivalency formula is completely biased towards hybrid power, so they'd need to change it, but on an even footing I think the Pug could be competitive.  Or maybe ACO would ask Audi/Porsche really nicely to let Penske run their old cars? 

[taz]

What happened with Team Joest ? for as long as i can remember they've driven Audi LMP1's but before Audi they've driven a Porsche too in Le Mans

If Porsche would decide to stop, maybe Team Joest could buy/drive a few '17 919 Hybrids.. ?

[Disgrace]

RCH, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:53, said:

Formula E???? You are kidding I hope! The sooner Formula Scalextric disappears the better!

 

Seriously what on earth are Jaguar doing there? Mooching around at the back, attracting bad publicity if anyone notices that is. Why not rebadge the effort as Land Rover? Given Mahindra are in there, seems a better fit to me. Meanwhile Jaguar needs to be at Le Mans and Le Mans needs high profile names like Jaguar, Ferrari, Mercedes.

 

For the same reason they were in F1 and sportscars. To sell road cars. It's not terribly difficult to work out.

[Disgrace]

maximilian, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:00, said:

Manufacturers now have a real - and much less costly - alternative to enter, that is Formula E.  Many of the names you mentioned will be or are already in FE.  It's a better business model (see Audi: drop WEC, step up FE).

 

So I am firmly in the "abolish LMP1" camp.  At some point?  Naw, how about NOW?

 

I think It's more about the technology than the business model. Audi were in LMP1 to showcase their "clean diesel" which turned out to be a fraud. VW were fined even more by US regulators than HSBC were for money laundering for terrorists. The manufacturers have the money, but the technology needs to be relevant to their interests.

[CoolBreeze]

Utter nonsense. Bring back those Group C monsters and watch (and hear) the magic again.

 

 

This electric bullcrap is not working in any category.

[Stephan666]

CoolBreeze, on 23 Jun 2017 - 17:13, said:

Utter nonsense. Bring back those Group C monsters and watch (and hear) the magic again.

 

 

This electric bullcrap is not working in any category.

 

Interesting thought.

 

I take it that you would rather "hear" the magic than "see" the magic.

 

Group C/LMP1/F1 pre-hybrid I agree sounded good, but the speed differential between those old Formulas and the current Hybrids is astounding. 

 

I always thought motor racing was about who could go quicker?

 

Yes, reliability is a bit fragile right now, but how many LMP1's failed to finish as a result of a Hybrid breakdown?

 

Cost is another myth I think, the MGU's are not that expensive when you compare to the budget on Aero.

[Viryfan]

It will end up like ITC in 1996.

 

Does LMP1 really need 4 wheel drived car , Traction control, active suspension and so on in order to showcase road relevent green technology?

[William Hunt]

There will be new LMP1 cars next year: new British constructor Perrin has already sold two LMP1 cars to an unknown team, Ginetta will be selling LMP1 cars and expects &t least 4 cars on the grid, they hope for 5 but that seems too optimisitc and Dallara will deliver two LMP1 cars to Russian outfit SMP Racing

[ArrowsLivery]

William Hunt, on 23 Jun 2017 - 18:48, said:

There will be new LMP1 cars next year: new British constructor Perrin has already sold two LMP1 cars to an unknown team, Ginetta will be selling LMP1 cars and expects &t least 4 cars on the grid, they hope for 5 but that seems too optimisitc and Dallara will deliver two LMP1 cars to Russian outfit SMP Racing

 

Those are going to be closer to glorified LMP2s than real LMP1 efforts though. 

[William Hunt]

I know but they will run in the LMP1 category

In my opinion the amount of money that Porsche and Audi or spending, said around 150 million euro per year, is insane, you could run an F1 team like Williams with that kind of money

[Wes350]

maximilian, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:00, said:

Manufacturers now have a real - and much less costly - alternative to enter, that is Formula E.  Many of the names you mentioned will be or are already in FE.  It's a better business model (see Audi: drop WEC, step up FE).

 

...

 

 

FE would go away tomorrow if not for the series founder currently subsidizing the series to the tune of 60m+ per year.

 

But from a manufacturers point of view it is a "cheaper" way to get exposure for their green credentials...

 

 

.

[ensign14]

Ban manufacturers unless they sell their cars for £1m a go.  You'd get 30 car fields then instantly. 

[Disgrace]

Wes350, on 23 Jun 2017 - 19:48, said:

FE would go away tomorrow if not for the series founder currently subsidizing the series to the tune of 60m+ per year.

 

That switch from investment to subsidy was effortless, kudos. But all forms of energy are subsidised. At least I hope you realise that.

[Wes350]

bruznic, on 23 Jun 2017 - 15:07, said:

But the racing is so much better in WEC. But to be honest I'm not against hybrid technology. I think WEC has done it like it should be. F1 could learn a thing or two.
...

 

Yes, like how to create a series/category that can only field 4-6 cars...

 

.

Cornholio, on 23 Jun 2017 - 15:21, said:

I know I'll be in the minority but I've really liked the LMP1-Hs in recent years, when pretty much every other category (increasingly F1 included) is concerned only with cost cutting and "close racing" at the expense of everything else, it was nice to see a category that felt more open and technologically free at least by modern standards, felt a bit more old school if nothing else.

 

And maybe those are the reasons its not sustainable but if it does die on its arse I'm not going to feel bad for enjoying it while it lasted.

 

...

 

Those are the exact reasons it was not sustainable. When you make the series a manufacturers playground that only they can afford to compete in, then you are basically ceding them control.

 

Do we really want to see racing series that are opened and then ended repeatedly once the 'manufacturers' feel that they have gotten all they want out of it??

 

.

Cornholio, on 23 Jun 2017 - 15:21, said:

...

Specifically on the hybrids I've always liked them and never agreed that they go against the sport. I honestly couldn't give a damn about the tree-hugger angle, but I like the idea of taking energy that would otherwise be wasted and directing it into making a racing car go faster.

 

Stephan666, on 23 Jun 2017 - 17:30, said:

...

Group C/LMP1/F1 pre-hybrid I agree sounded good, but the speed differential between those old Formulas and the current Hybrids is astounding. 

 

I always thought motor racing was about who could go quicker?

 

...

 

That would all be fine if the regulations weren't written to favor the hybrid tech, by mandating higher minimum weights, fixing weight distribution, etc...

 

 

.

[F1matt]

Retrofly, on 23 Jun 2017 - 15:35, said:

Get rod of LMP1, rename LMP2 to LMP1, sorted.

Seriously though, I'm new to WEC, this year was the first time I properly watch Le Mans, and while LMP1 was dramatic, it was a bit of a joke.
Only 2 manufacturers, with 1 privateer (which lasted 1 lap) and only 1 LMP1 car finishing.

If the hybrid engine is thing that's causing all the problems (Reliability, costs, Manufacture interest) then just get rid of it.

Leave the electric stuff to Formula E, and continue with ICE's until Hyrbrid is cheap and reliable enough.

The LMP1 Prototype cars are amazing to watch, but we need more of them and they need to not break down.

I think you have a point, get rid of LMP1 and rebrand LMP2, but let's go a bit further and get rid of F1 and rebrand F2 and we have solved everything.

[Nathan]

maximilian, on 23 Jun 2017 - 13:00, said:

Manufacturers now have a real - and much less costly - alternative to enter, that is Formula E.  Many of the names you mentioned will be or are already in FE.  It's a better business model (see Audi: drop WEC, step up FE).

 

Well it's less costly because it's just branding spec race cars.  I'm not too up to date on FE tech, but how much R&D can a manufacture put in?  How much marketing value does it really produce?

[Wes350]

Disgrace, on 23 Jun 2017 - 20:10, said:

That switch from investment to subsidy was effortless, kudos. But all forms of energy are subsidised. At least I hope you realise that.

 

All of it is now Regulated, yes. But we will have to roll through case by case to look at why certain subsidies were done. Or is it "investments"???

 

At their inception IC engines and petrol production did not have to be subsidized because they took over from whale oil and horses naturally because they are superior and more efficent technology. - And it took time for them to do so!

 

IC engines and oil production were never subsidized to the degree that Solar, wind, Electric cars have been in spite of the fact that, in every case these technologies would fall flat on their back if current subsidies were ended.

 

Which has never been the case for IC engines or petrol production.

 

The electric tech just isn't good enough yet.

 

As the technology gets better - then they will naturally take over from IC powered cars as they prove their superiority and affordability to the market.

 

Just like petrol and IC engines did over whale oil and horses.

 

This will take time. And they do not need silly subsidies to do it.

 

But this debate is really off topic. Wanna argue over PM?

 

.

Edited by Wes350, 23 June 2017 - 20:37.

[bruznic]

William Hunt, on 23 Jun 2017 - 19:15, said:

I know but they will run in the LMP1 category
In my opinion the amount of money that Porsche and Audi or spending, said around 150 million euro per year, is insane, you could run an F1 team like Williams with that kind of money

Win WEC and/or Le Mans(the biggest race in the world) or come fourth or fifth in f1...
Not a hard choice if you ask me.

[bruznic]

Wes350, on 23 Jun 2017 - 20:16, said:

Yes, like how to create a series/category that can only field 4-6 cars...


.

I was talking about the technical approach.
For us fans it is great to compare the different views teams can have.

[Disgrace]

Wes350, on 23 Jun 2017 - 20:34, said:

All of it is Regulated, yes. But we will have to roll through case by case to look at why certain subsidies were done. Or is it "investments"???

 

We can keep the cases to sport. Agag has invested in Formula E like Liberty Media is investing in F1. They expect returns on that investment. Unless of course this is an irregular verb: I invest in Formula 1, you spend on WEC and he subsidises Formula E.

[Wes350]

Disgrace, on 23 Jun 2017 - 20:43, said:

We can keep the cases to sport. Agag has invested in Formula E like Liberty Media is investing in F1. They expect returns on that investment. Unless of course this is an irregular verb: I invest in Formula 1, you spend on WEC and he subsidises Formula E.

 

Liberty/Agag's investments is a apples and oranges comparison.

 

Agag is counting on the popularity and especially the technology coming good over time if he wants to recoup his money.

 

In the current state of affairs he will be in the red for the foreseeable future.

 

It is a question of how long he can afford to lose 50-60 million a year, before things come good.

 

But I do not know his intentions, he could be doing FE for altruistic reasons.

 

For Liberty - F1 is already a going concern that is raking in loads of cash. Much easier to plan when you are going to start to see a ROI.

 

.

Edited by Wes350, 23 June 2017 - 21:45.

[Disgrace]

Sport needs to be popular to make money. News at 11. That you think an investment is bad doesn't make it a subsidy either.

Edited by Disgrace, 23 June 2017 - 21:53.

[Wes350]

bruznic, on 23 Jun 2017 - 20:38, said:

I was talking about the technical approach.
For us fans it is great to compare the different views teams can have.

 

But they are linked... the way the FIA wrote the technical rules made it so only the manufacturers could afford to play, which dictated a field of only 4-6 cars.

[johnmhinds]

ensign14, on 23 Jun 2017 - 19:58, said:

Ban manufacturers unless they sell their cars for £1m a go.  You'd get 30 car fields then instantly. 

 

That would just make all the manufacturers leave. None of them can afford to sell an LMP1 car for that price, and they don't have the facilities to build a production run of prototype cars.

 

And none of them want to be beaten by a team that bought a clone of their own car, the manufacturers coudn't run all their marketing around that other team after they beat the main team.

[ensign14]

Never bothered Porsche in the past.  Joest beat them at Le Mans and Brun even won the world title.

[Nonesuch]

Retrofly, on 23 Jun 2017 - 15:35, said:

while LMP1 was dramatic, it was a bit of a joke. Only 2 manufacturers, with 1 privateer (which lasted 1 lap) and only 1 LMP1 car finishing.

 

If the hybrid engine is thing that's causing all the problems (Reliability, costs, Manufacture interest) then just get rid of it.

 

Two LMP1 cars finished. Ironically, it were the two cars (#2 and #8) which had issues with the hybrid systems - more specifically the front motor - earlier in the race. The other four failed to finish for very traditional reasons. #4 because sustained damage caused the engine to overheat, #7 because of a clutch problem, #9 because a collision and subsequent damage, and #1 because oil pressure disappeared.

 

Hybrid LMP1s have won Le Mans for over half a decade. They're not the issue. Not directly anyway. They are extremely expensive, though, causing their own set of problems for the series along the line.

[ArrowsLivery]

I think all of Toyota's woes could be related to the hybrid system, but it is true that Audi and Porsche have been winning with hybrids since 2012.

[Wes350]

Disgrace, on 23 Jun 2017 - 21:47, said:

Sport needs to be popular to make money. News at 11. That you think an investment is bad doesn't make it a subsidy either.

 

I can argue semantics too...

 

In Agag's case: Invesment or subsidy?

 

Investment: The action or process of investing money for profit.

 

Subsidy: A sum of money granted to support an undertaking held to be in the public interest.

 

By his own statements: http://info.fiaformu.../sustainability  http://www.fiaformul...cal-revolution/ (and there are more in interviews he gave through a google search)

 

Agag's reason's for the creation of FE, and his subsequent injection of millions, falls more into what most would think of as a subsidy to promote a new technology.

 

So, seems just pure altruism - good for him.

[Vettelari]

I would wager that Renault, Audi, and Peugeot are spending $20 million/yr or more on their Formula E programs already. That will grow exponentially with every new season and less regulations. I wouldn't call FE "dirt cheap" at those costs. The reason we are seeing more field separation is due to the bigger manufacturers putting more $ into the sport than others. Like Renault, Audi, Peugeot (Citroen), and Mahindra who have won every race between them in the last 2 seasons, if I recall correctly.

[pingu666]

be interesting to see a budget breakdown on how much the hybrid tech costs, also worth remmbering if nissian had skipped le mans in 2015 instead of running with no hybrid and a messed up car, we would have 3 two or three car teams.

 

also the 4wheel drive hybrids are the fastest accelerating race cars ever.

[TF110]

The amount of falsehoods in this thread is astounding! Lets talk about budgets first. Toyota do not spend "$150 million" to whoever said that. They spend about half of that. I think Porsche may be close to that amount and Audi spent north of $200 million according to racer.com. Well, Audi is gone and Porsche reduced their budget a bit because they only run 2 cars now. Another thing, lmp1 is not dying. Not with Ginetta, SMP, Perrinn and Morand all set to join in the next two years. Plus Toyota is staying to at least 2019 and Porsche previously committed to 2018. I hope the hybrid rules fall flat on their face in 2020 though. I don't think anyone is looking to sign up to that. If that be the case, then were going to see the ACO do a u-turn imo. With only non-factory, non-hybrid cars in lmp1 they will definitely do anything to appease a couple manufacturers to join them. I bet if, a big if, that happens, they will look to IMSA and say DPi's can join the top class with modifications.

[William Hunt]

TF110, on 24 Jun 2017 - 00:28, said:

 Toyota do not spend "$150 million" to whoever said that.

 

This was the exact amount that was mentioned on Eurosport multiple times during the race this year

Do you have a source proving their budget?

[TF110]

William Hunt, on 24 Jun 2017 - 05:07, said:

This was the exact amount that was mentioned on Eurosport multiple times during the race this year

Do you have a source proving their budget?

Pascal Vasselon himself said they spend a quarter of their last F1 budget (which was ~$300 million in '09). There's links in the wec thread.

[Kalmake]

Vettelari, on 23 Jun 2017 - 23:20, said:

I would wager that Renault, Audi, and Peugeot are spending $20 million/yr or more on their Formula E programs already. That will grow exponentially with every new season and less regulations. I wouldn't call FE "dirt cheap" at those costs. The reason we are seeing more field separation is due to the bigger manufacturers putting more $ into the sport than others. Like Renault, Audi, Peugeot (Citroen), and Mahindra who have won every race between them in the last 2 seasons, if I recall correctly.

How are they getting around the $3.3M budget cap?

[Annoying Twit]

Given the number of LMP1 cars predicted for next year, this thread may be discussing a problem that has already been solved. 

[johnmhinds]

Kalmake, on 24 Jun 2017 - 06:39, said:

How are they getting around the $3.3M budget cap?

 

That budget cap in Formula E doesn't include the costs for the car does it? It's just a cap on everything else in the team.

[RCH]

New "privateer" LMP1 cars will certainly swell the ranks next year but surely what Le Mans needs are big names? Clearly the costs of running hybrids are too high and I suspect attempts to trim them will not really achieve anything. If a true equivalence could be found and a way for manufacturers to run non hybrids at a reasonable budget then surely that is the way forward.

 

I cannot understand why LMP2 had to become virtually a one make formula. I've always argued against such ideas in single seaters because it stifles engineering talent in lesser formulae which could and should feed through to F1. Incidentally has anyone remarked on the fact that had Rebellion remained in LMP1 they could have won this year?

 

Why are people bringing Formula E into this thread? It bears no comparison with endurance racing, the only connection being that companies that you would expect to find in endurance events are appearing there. I can see that there is potential for developing electric power units there but is this really possible within the regulations? Or maybe it is just to show "green" credentials. Maybe I'm prejudiced but are potential buyers of, say, Jaguars that interested in electric cars? I can see the logic in developing for the future but at present I cannot see that involvement with FE will benefit manufacturers like Jaguar. Rebrand it Land Rover, I think it's a better fit and get back to what you are good at, winning at Le Mans.