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Great article on the Dodge Hellcat engine


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#1 MatsNorway

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 22:13

I would like to hear your thoughts on this great engine

http://www.hotrod.co...p-hellcat-hemi/



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#2 Bob Riebe

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 17:35

Well, first, with articles like that it is easy to see why Hot Rod is still around and many other car rags are not.

 

It would seem Dodge is putting the effort into U.S. gear-head engines that Ford is putting into Euro four bangers.

That engine really is a factory version of what the Lingenfelter and such who charge big bucks do to sell a extra high performance modified sports/pony car.

 

It is impractical for a myriad of reasons but it has construction that makes its warranty practical in reality vs. it is warranted to the end of the dealership driveway.



#3 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 09:02

Interesting engine. Still quite simple in a hitech way. I suspect though quite heavy with all the blower etc. The wet sump should be fine for a road car and probably the drag strip. Put some road race tyres on it and watch it eat itself!

Though road racing usually is limited to 6 litre with a 1.7 equivilancy which makes it way too big. Though I guess the Americans may have to  make new rules for all the blown engines at the moment.



#4 MatsNorway

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:01

Sadly today's motorsport organizers is a bunch of wankers so the race cars today is usually less powerful than their road going brethren. Only thing racecars still do is getting lighter. And very expensive with all that Carbon fiber and custom fabrication. Rules should really be stock body with a strict interpretation and no carbon fiber. Glass fiber is good enough.

Fenders should also be more sturdy so they can actually rub each other without bouncing off the wheels.

 

Anyway.. This Hellcat is a very impressive piece of engineering. There is a lot of minor but important details that in total makes this high hp engine. Btw. I think people overlook the gearbox needed for this engine. I believe the 8speed as gotten a lot of praise as a good box. Whatever is in the Demon certainly is strong as it can lifts a heavy car like that up. All with dealer warranty. I pay attention to anything sporty from Dodge these days. What will they do after the viper for instance. Similar shape and rename it with a V8? Sounds like a "hypercar" killer to me.



#5 Bob Riebe

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 16:23

Interesting engine. Still quite simple in a hitech way. I suspect though quite heavy with all the blower etc. The wet sump should be fine for a road car and probably the drag strip. Put some road race tyres on it and watch it eat itself!

 

In the Trans-Am up to 1970, the racers/factories were forced to figure out how to make a wet-sump work in road racing.

They did a fairly good job but the SCCA decided rather than use racing to improve the breed just reduce all to the lowest common denominator and allow dry-sumps.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 08 August 2017 - 16:24.


#6 Magoo

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 06:16

Interesting engine. Still quite simple in a hitech way. I suspect though quite heavy with all the blower etc. The wet sump should be fine for a road car and probably the drag strip. Put some road race tyres on it and watch it eat itself!

Though road racing usually is limited to 6 litre with a 1.7 equivilancy which makes it way too big. Though I guess the Americans may have to  make new rules for all the blown engines at the moment.

 

 

Yep, I haven't messed with the Hellcat too much but this package with engine/cooler/blower stack tends to put the weight high and up front. Also, it tends to heat soak so the power drops off, but they've been working on that. I remember a Mustang a few years ago that got its best ET first run of the day and could only repeat with a lot of ice and fooling around. 



#7 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 23:56

In the Trans-Am up to 1970, the racers/factories were forced to figure out how to make a wet-sump work in road racing.

They did a fairly good job but the SCCA decided rather than use racing to improve the breed just reduce all to the lowest common denominator and allow dry-sumps.

For road racing wet sumps are always a compromise. And for some reason many cars are built with front well pans which exasparates the drama as get on the power out of a corner and all the oil runs away from the pickup. Obviously why a rear well is better but still not great. At best a wet sump engine needs a set of bearing shells regularly where with drysump [done properly, many seem to screw it up] all those problems go away and the driver can concentrate on driving the car. So it goes faster with no other mods, and that with maybe a 10hp drag from the pump.



#8 Magoo

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 01:10

In the Trans-Am up to 1970, the racers/factories were forced to figure out how to make a wet-sump work in road racing.

They did a fairly good job but the SCCA decided rather than use racing to improve the breed just reduce all to the lowest common denominator and allow dry-sumps.

 

The lateral accelerations were pretty low compared to today. 



#9 MatsNorway

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 11:33

Was it tho?

 

I know it is not trans am. But they seemed to have grip back then too.

 

6a4a360180ad25ecc68d7271cd1f2bd5.jpg17e20e39eef6b376afb56fce11eb0fbc--ford-l64daf71d60b11f805b6702e3340c7220.jpg

 

I mean.. lower sure but pretty low? The cars where fairly light. (acid dipped and so on) and Had big rubber. I guess they mainly had less consistent cornering speeds, less acceleration due to less gears and manuals, no aero and less power as well depending on series, braking where worse too.


Edited by MatsNorway, 14 August 2017 - 11:42.


#10 Bob Riebe

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 22:47

The lateral accelerations were pretty low compared to today. 

The cars weighed just under 3000 lbs without fuel, had less sticky rubber, and tires that had approx. 7 in. tread width front and 11 inches rear, but still pulled over 1 g in 1969.

Lower but in Trans-Am today, not that much lower.

Penske spent a lot of time and money to develop a wet sump system to keep the AMC engines alive.

I imagine Ford and Chevy did also.

I do believe a wet sump system that is available in speed shops,or was twenty years ago, to help them work in hard cornering is based on one Penske develped, but am not sure.

 

There are shots, not online that I could find, probably copy right reasons, of V-8 Trans-Am cars also corniering near hard enough to lift the inner front.

Bias Ply react differently from radial , you can literally use the side wall, but it is/was still very hard cornering.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 15 August 2017 - 18:00.


#11 Magoo

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 12:59

The current American Sedans in SCCA club racing are quicker than the old 1960s Trans-Am. Check them out. They're pretty cool, and the cars about as close as you will find to the original Trans-Am Series, rules and technology-wise. 



#12 Charlieman

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 13:19

I would like to hear your thoughts on this great engine

http://www.hotrod.co...p-hellcat-hemi/

It looks like machine and casting shop porn to me. There's some lovely manufactured stuff -- if you have the money to make it. Does anyone expect the Dodge Hellcat to be profitable or is it a show exercise?



#13 MatsNorway

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 13:32

Surely it has to be good profit. They are not selling in that low quantities do they?



#14 Bob Riebe

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 18:31

The current American Sedans in SCCA club racing are quicker than the old 1960s Trans-Am. Check them out. They're pretty cool, and the cars about as close as you will find to the original Trans-Am Series, rules and technology-wise. 

I am heading down to Road America for the multi-sedan series races on August 27.

First time I will be there for a professional race since the nineties.

Last time I was there  ten years ago the Billy Mitchell Bridge was still up.

Used to go two to three times a year for over a decade but the spec. rules in racing took a lot out of it for me, though I will regret till the day I die not going in 2003 when Ferrari challenged Chevrolet for the GT 1 title and the 1996 vintage race when George Follmer  and Bennett were spanked for actually racing, fender banging, during the Can-Am part and Follmer said they paid me to race.



#15 Greg Locock

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 19:14

Charlieman - If RRP is $70000 and it is based on a $35000 car then yes, they are making money. Roughly speaking the customer pays a 100% markup on the base model, and 400% on all the nice little options they tick. So Dodge are paying about $10000 for all the bolt on bits and saving about $2000 on the original parts, and getting about $30000 more at the factory gate. And then there's the finance...

 

That's very approximate but roughly how the walk up the brand works. Cost control model is almost always the cheapest one, as far as I know. I expect Magoo has forgotten more of this stuff than i ever knew, the whole business side of the business is something that interests me but has never kept me awake at night.



#16 Kelpiecross

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 03:48

Was it tho?
 
I know it is not trans am. But they seemed to have grip back then too.
 
6a4a360180ad25ecc68d7271cd1f2bd5.jpg17e20e39eef6b376afb56fce11eb0fbc--ford-l64daf71d60b11f805b6702e3340c7220.jpg
 
I mean.. lower sure but pretty low? The cars where fairly light. (acid dipped and so on) and Had big rubber. I guess they mainly had less consistent cornering speeds, less acceleration due to less gears and manuals, no aero and less power as well depending on series, braking where worse too.


Nice photos Mats - reminds me of the famous one of Ian Geoghegan at Oran Park in 1969.
https://www.google.c...f=1502855199359
It must have been the fashion then to set the cars up so they lifted the inside front wheel

#17 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 05:38

All other things being equal you'd tend to set a car up so the driven wheels stay on the track, accelerating out of the corner is crucial..



#18 Bob Riebe

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 15:56

The current American Sedans in SCCA club racing are quicker than the old 1960s Trans-Am. Check them out. They're pretty cool, and the cars about as close as you will find to the original Trans-Am Series, rules and technology-wise. 

I did a check, the fastest TA 2 car is 8 seconds a lap quicker in quaifying than the first year of tube frame cars 1983 were.

11 seconds a lap quicker than the last prod. based cars were in 1982.

15.5 seconds quicker than Parnelli's fastest lap in 1969.

These are all at Donnybrooke (BIR)



#19 Kelpiecross

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 02:47

All other things being equal you'd tend to set a car up so the driven wheels stay on the track, accelerating out of the corner is crucial..


I had more or less realized that this was probably what they used to do - but the present V8 Supercars seem to remain nose-down as if they are concentrating on front grip.

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#20 Wuzak

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:20

I had more or less realized that this was probably what they used to do - but the present V8 Supercars seem to remain nose-down as if they are concentrating on front grip.

 

You can see them lift the nose under acceleration, though not a huge amount.

 

I wonder if the lifting of the front tyre in older cars is a sign of the lower chassis stiffness? Or that suspension control in modern race cars is far better?

 

http://www.smh.com.a...97080731041.jpg


Edited by Wuzak, 17 August 2017 - 05:22.


#21 MatsNorway

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 18:49

I think it is mostly down to CoG and suspension travel. Limit the droop but allow compression and voila. Wheel lift.

 

Even F1 cars in the past have lifted on slow corners. But sure. Soft chassis helps too. We have all seen hold americans lift on the dragstrip.

 

europe2004_0061090335121.jpg.f1-monaco-gp-2017-stoffel-vandoorne-mcla


Edited by MatsNorway, 17 August 2017 - 18:59.


#22 Kelpiecross

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 02:47


I don't think the current F1 cars ever lift the front inside wheel unless the opposite corner is going flat or the car is going over a kerb.

#23 Wuzak

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 06:19

I had more or less realized that this was probably what they used to do - but the present V8 Supercars seem to remain nose-down as if they are concentrating on front grip.

 

I just had another thought on teh matter - the V8Supercar tyres are the same all around. 

 

Which would mean a higher proportion of the overall grip is at the front, so you could see why maximizing the tyre contact would be important.

 

It's a similar thing in F1. The tyres aren't the same sizes front to rear, but the fronts are closer in size to the rear than they used to be (in the '90s and before) so they need to use the grip at the front more.