40 replies to this topic

[moffspeed]

Inspired by correspondence in this month's Octane magazine -  back in the 60's and 70's we all witnessed F1 cars out there with the suffix "T" after their usual number i.e. test cars.

 

The question arose when did a "T car" last appear - apparently even DCN is devoid of an answer.

 

Trivia admittedly but any offers ?

[Allen Brown]

They've stopped appearing?!

I really am lost in the past, aren't I?

[Michael Ferner]

T stood for "Training", if I recall correctly, not "Test". And I, too, am "devoid of an answer" - they certainly still existed when I last watched an F1 race.

[sabrejet]

Only F1? Also in SWC etc.

[moffspeed]

Thanks for that, I guess one fundamental question is whether they were outlawed or just the "T" was retired - which seems likely as up until recently most teams travelled with a "spare".

 

Of course nowaday you have just 2 cars and a limited and governed supply of MPEGs, HUV2s, ICE3s, TURDs etc which makes things a lot simpler...

[Michael Ferner]

Well, I'm happy to hear they've limited the TURDs...

[chr1s]

I recall seeing a Ferrari 312T with a "T"on it some time in 1975, but not after that. Maybe it went along with the tall air boxes etc in 1976?

[chr1s]

Found a photo on the net of the Ferrari team in the paddock at Long beach 1976 with a car with 1T on it.

[Rob Ryder]

1977 Argentina 11T Niki Lauda Ferrari 312-T2
1977 Belgium 10T Ian Scheckter March 761B
1979 USA 14T Alex Ribeiro Fittipaldi F6A

Edited by Rob Ryder, 25 August 2017 - 17:00.

[MCS]

They've stopped appearing?!

I really am lost in the past, aren't I?

 

Be thankful, Allen!

 

I am well and truly stuck in the past and absolutely plan to remain so.

[Dick Dastardly]

When I saw the title, I thought this was a thread on the junior racing series, T-Cars, from the early noughties.....the only series for 14-17 year olds in those days

[chr1s]

1977 Argentina 11T Niki Lauda Ferrari 312-T2
1977 Belgium 10T Ian Scheckter March 761B
1979 USA 14T Alex Ribeiro Fittipaldi F6A

Are you sure about Riberio in 1979?  I can find no mention of "T" cars or any photographs after 1977.

[barrykm]

Wasn't the T intended to exclude the car from official timing?

[Richard Jenkins]

http://www.motorspor...older-and-imola refers to a T car for Renault in 1984 (albeit without the suffix) but it's a phrase that carried on well until the 2000's, although I'm not sure whether you mean those spare cars in this vein.
Ferrari called their testing car the SF17-T only this year.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 31 August 2017 - 05:20.

[Rob Ryder]

Are you sure about Riberio in 1979?  I can find no mention of "T" cars or any photographs after 1977.

I have it that Riberio used Fittipaldi's spare F6A/2 during practice and that it was renumbered later to 19.

[Allen Brown]

I have it that Riberio used Fittipaldi's spare F6A/2 during practice and that it was renumbered later to 19.

 

Very interesting.  Ribeiro was an expected entry in Canada, but not at Watkins Glen the following weekend.  In Canada, its presence - and that of the third Tyrrell - meant that there should have been prequalifying and the Alfas were initially excluded.  FISA said that both entries had been made during June, so there was plenty of time to allocate a race number.  However, Autosport's preview IIRC said that the second Copersuca entry would not be at Watkins Glen, so maybe that's why it had 14 on the side at first.  

[Allen Brown]

Can we clarify the original question?  Is it about teams having spare cars, which would through force of habit be called T-cars by some journalists, or is it about cars wearing a visible T during practice?  If it's the former, then spare cars were banned in 2003, quickly unbanned again, and then more decisively banned in 2008.  Teams can still have a dismantled spare car in case of accidents.

 

However, if the question is about cars wearing a T during practice, then Rob's picture is the latest we have so far.

 

The T was originally so the timekeepers could record separate times for each car.  When did the rule change so that a driver could start in one car using a grid position earned in a different car?  That is the moment at which the T became unnecessary.  Ribeiro's case is different, in that the timekeepers needed to record a separate time for a separate driver.

[Michael Ferner]

The rule changed 1974.

[Allen Brown]

Kid Creole & The Coconuts?

[BRG]

Kid Creole & The Coconuts?

Allen, I'm not your daddy.

[Michael Ferner]

... and as soon as I've changed my signature (yet again), nobody will know what the heck you're talking about...

[BRG]

That would be nothing new.....

[Henk Vasmel]

To confuse matters even more, there have been occasions where spare cars (T-cars) have had different numbers than the real racing cars. The last case of that I found (in GP's) was 1973 where a McLaren spare car had number 35, while the race cars were 7 and 8.

In the times when there were races with even numbers only, sometimes spare cars wore odd numbers.

The last time a spare car was used in a Grand Prix was only a few days ago. Last Sunday's Belgian GP had Felipe Massa driving the freshly built-up spare after crashing his intended race car on the first (?) lap of practice.

For the T's on the car, there were two variations: a starting number with a T added and just a plain T.

For the International Trophy 1958, we also have a T-car with only a P (instead of a T). That was a Maserati (Also found at MC 56)

Finally (for now) I have a 48A and 50A in MC 58

[Michael Ferner]

To confuse matters even more, there have been occasions where spare cars (T-cars) have had different numbers than the real racing cars. The last case of that I found (in GP's) was 1973 where a McLaren spare car had number 35, while the race cars were 7 and 8.

More famously, Hulme drove McLaren #56 in the 1974 Spanish GP. Many organizers didn't yet know that spare cars needn't be timed seperately, so there were a few occasions that year when they were assigned their own numbers.

[chr1s]

I have it that Riberio used Fittipaldi's spare F6A/2 during practice and that it was renumbered later to 19.

OK,  you are sure about that! Thanks for posting it.

[Rob Ryder]

For the International Trophy 1958, we also have a T-car with only a P (instead of a T). That was a Maserati (Also found at MC 56)
Finally (for now) I have a 48A and 50A in MC 58

 
1953 Italian GP Fangio used M on his spare Maserati during practice 
1956 Belgian GP Maserati had F, G, H, I, J, K, L & O on their race cars during practice
 
 
 

Edited by Rob Ryder, 01 September 2017 - 19:49.

[chr1s]

I took the original question to mean a car physically displaying a T next to its number rather than a generic term for a spare car. I think Rob is the winner!

[Henk Vasmel]

1956 Belgian GP Maserati had F, G, H, I, J, K, L & O on their race cars during practice
1958 Italian GP Fangio used M on his spare Maserati during practice

 

 
 

When I checked my database, I found letters like F, G, H, I etc. for the Belgian GP 56. At that moment I didn't believe my own notes so I didn't include it.

I have no Fangio in Italy 1958, maybe earlier? But even then, this M is unknown to me.

 

The fact that for the Belgian GP letters were used instead of numbers could be related to the fact that the Spa organisers often used different numbering for practice and race. The explanation I read was that they wanted to frustrate people who printed "pirate" programs by keeping race numbers secret until the last possible moment. Maybe somebody knows more details about this.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 01 September 2017 - 19:28.

[moffspeed]

I took the original question to mean a car physically displaying a T next to its number rather than a generic term for a spare car. I think Rob is the winner!

 

I took the original question to mean a car physically displaying a T next to its number rather than a generic term for a spare car. I think Rob is the winner!

Yes indeed, the question did relate to a car displaying a "T".  

 

Looks like Rob wins the chocolate biscuit unless anyone can provide a later photo.

 

Random thought then was as to when a works Ferrari last bore the "Prova Mod" legend but maybe that should be a new thread...

[wsp77]

Found a photo on the net of the Ferrari team in the paddock at Long beach 1976 with a car with 1T on it.

I believe that was Ferrari's entry for Phil Hill who appeared on the Friday.

[raceannouncer2003]

So this car:

 

http://bobh.photoshe...000036.sOhiybuQ

 

I was there.  I don't remember this.  I wonder how he did and what his impressions were.

 

Vince H.

[Marc Sproule]

So this car:

 

http://bobh.photoshe...000036.sOhiybuQ

 

I was there.  I don't remember this.  I wonder how he did and what his impressions were.

 

Vince H.

i was there too.

 

i had no knowledge of this happening.

 

oh well.

[dgs]

I believe that was Ferrari's entry for Phil Hill who appeared on the Friday.

Page 87 of Autocourse 1976-1977, quotes " Phil Hill doing a couple of laps in the spare Ferrari 312T"

 

This was on race day (28th March) after warm up and before race start.

[nmansellfan]

Random thought then was as to when a works Ferrari last bore the "Prova Mod" legend but maybe that should be a new thread...

I have a feeling it was 1967, on the 312/67's? They were gone by 1970 on the 312B's I think.

Was it basically an equivalent of trade plates, allowing mechanics to test the cars on the road?

[Henk Vasmel]

I had a strong idea that it was only 1966. So I did a quick scan and found Chris Amon, Monaco '69 with a (very) possible Prova plate at the rear left of the cockpit. Possibly it has also been seen without. To stay on topic, the T-car he used (11T) did not have the prova plate, at least not in that location. Pictures I found are just not sharp enough to be sure.

 

For Phil Hill's Ferrari in Long Beach '76, I seem to remember that that was for a write-up in "Road&Track". Could try to locate that one.

[moffspeed]

I have a feeling it was 1967, on the 312/67's? They were gone by 1970 on the 312B's I think.

Was it basically an equivalent of trade plates, allowing mechanics to test the cars on the road?

Yes, they were the equivalent of trade plates to allow the cars to be driven to the circuit on public roads (those were the days).  I also think 67/68 may have been the end of Prova Mo.  

 

Sportscar -wise they appeared on the P3/4s but apparently not on the 512s.  F1 wise I guess they were there to make the short drive to the pits at Monaco legal  - I don't think any other teams worried about this...

 

Incidentally Ferrari presumably had a stock of in-house plates - Prova Mo 36 appeared on the D50 in 1955, the shark nose in1961 and then reappeared on a P4 in 1967. 

 

I've also seen a racing Ferrari with a Prova Co plate - but its quite simple really, the Prova bit is self explanatory whilst Mo is the regional plate suffix for Modena whilst Co is the equivalent regional plate for Como.

Edited by moffspeed, 07 September 2017 - 17:41.

[Ristin]

I have always wondered whether the trade plate would have helped with border crossing. The paperwork for a registered vehicle would have been much easier. I do know a few former motorcycle racers who'd put a licence plate to the back of their racebike and fake a registration to ease their continental travels. Where I live, trade plates are not considered regular registrations, so it would actually not help with border crossing, but I don't know the laws and regulations in those days.
Plus there might have been an insurance attached to the Ferrari trade plates, so they would not have to make seperate insurance deals for every car and every trip.

[fw07c]

In 1958 at Belgian Grand Prix Vanwall used "P" in practice, while at 1957 Syracuse Grand Prix Vanwall used "T" in practice. Lancia at 1954 Spanish Grand Prix used "L" in practice I wounder what that stands for?

[fw07c]

"L" I think may be something in Spanish that timing officials required when practicing.

[Jager]

At Le Mans in 1989, the Toyota team ran a T-car for their No. 37 entry :

 

http://www.lemans-hi.../lm890155td.jpg

[Kvadrat]

Definitely T-car for Al Unser, year unknown for me.