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Racing an 'Arrer'


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#1 Herr Wankel

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 19:59

Now then chaps and chapesses. My nephew and I have this barmy notion to build an Arrow for twisty sprints and hillclimbs. Its not going to be a Mike Hose replica, but a bit of fun (and probably a lot of heartache). Single carb, iron barrels and 4 speed. Now I know that there is a wealth of experience out there with you fellas, so what works and more importantly, what doesn't ! And before you ask, yes, I am on medication but its not working !

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#2 tonyed

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:19

Arielglida is your man on this site. He has an Arrer through his heart.

 

I started with an Arrow and we built it using Motorcycle Mechanics 'Make your Arrow do 100mph' feature.



#3 Paul Collins

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:44

Arielglida is your man on this site. He has an Arrer through his heart.
 
I started with an Arrow and we built it using Motorcycle Mechanics 'Make your Arrow do 100mph' feature.


I'm curious now Tony, did it do 100mph?

#4 Herr Wankel

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 16:49

So am I Paul as I have the same article. I am told that it is not beneficial to pad the flywheels, but if it worked, then ...... Did you use the standard clutch Tony ?

#5 Herr Wankel

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 22:00

Thanks Tony. I have been chatting with arielglida (Roger) on the Ariel Owners forum. He is an absolute mine of information.

#6 tonyed

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 04:43

We used the original clutch, but fashioned a closer ratio gearbox by swapping some gears. Finished up with a twin carb conversion by casting a new inlet/engine mount and bolting/bonding it to the cut down crankcase.

 

We did pad the flywheels but thinking is different today concerning primary compression.

 

Norton Dominator front wheel, works Ariel rear and other mods. I don't know the top speed but it would pull 9000 rpm in the end of our development.

 

All a long time ago. My Father was the 'brains' behind the project.

 

Roger is defo the man for this project. He'll have you building a V four in the end. :lol:  



#7 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 07:30

Thanks Tony,much appreciated.A V4 2 stroke, thats never been done before surely !!!!!!!!! We have a little advantage as I have one on the road - rolling test bed.

#8 ERIC63

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:50

Don't know if you've seen this but I posted it on here a couple of year's ago

John Rimmer's Four cylinder Arrow parading at the MGP in 2013.Definitely unusual.

 

New_1_mgp13_105.jpg


Edited by ERIC63, 28 September 2017 - 10:06.


#9 Paul Collins

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:42

Someone also built a triple in the 1970's I remember a feature in the press at the time.

#10 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 15:07

Thank you Eric. Paul, I think John Rimmer may have a 3 as well.

#11 Paul Collins

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 16:07

I find it amazing that 'men in sheds' could create things such as this, yet our motorcycle industry couldn't produce competitive large two strokes, which some time later were produced by the Japanese, and went on to rule the racing world for many years.

We had all the equipment, the skills, and obviously the creative engineering brains, just not joined up in one place!!

#12 Paul Collins

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 16:20

Another one from the early 70's that I've just remembered was the SELVA.

Bob Stevenson and his mates at Spondon engineering grafted 2 Greeves Silverstone engines together to make a 500cc parallel twin, I remember the MCN article showing a nearly complete bike, but I'm not sure if it ever actually made it to testing, I imagine it would have been a fair weapon.

#13 ERIC63

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 17:29

Took this pic at Aintree this year.John Rimmer on an Arrow which was entered as a 250,but would appear to be 3 cylinder.

 

New_1_P1370111.jpg



#14 Herr Wankel

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 18:13

Paul, I saw the SELVA at Darley Moor which was mine and Bobs local circuit. It never really suceeded, whereas it took a good bloke on a very fast Yam to beat him round there on his Spondon framed Greeves Oulton 350. Needless to say, not many did.

#15 Paul Collins

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 21:49

Thanks for the photo Eric, yes that will be the triple I read about many years ago.

I did a bit of Google research after my earlier post Herr, and found some info from a Greeves site which said Bob had run the SELVA at Darley but had constant reliability issues with it.

I remember Bob winning on the Oulton at Cadwell back in the days when my neighbour Roger Marshall was first starting out as a club rider and I used to go along to watch him, Bob had that Greeves well sorted and rode it incredibly hard, and as you say, it took a very good Yamaha rider to hang on to him.

I used Spondon parts quite a lot when I was running TZ's and met Bob at their place a few times, he and Stuart were brilliant engineers, and to this day I have never seen welding as neat as on their frames and swing arms, I used to run my fingers over it when cleaning my bikes and marvel at the skill involved.

#16 billlawrence

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 02:53

I remember Bill Boddice had a ride on a Sidecar with an Ariel Arrow four I don't think anything came of it shame I think Peter Brown ended up with the frame     Bill Lawrence



#17 Herr Wankel

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 21:16

Stuart built a Honda CR93 motor into one of their frames. A thing of beauty but I have never seen or heard of it since the early 70s. As you say, workmanship second to none. Bob was a bit of a character to say the least.

#18 greg1953

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 10:09

Thanks for the photo Eric, yes that will be the triple I read about many years ago.

I did a bit of Google research after my earlier post Herr, and found some info from a Greeves site which said Bob had run the SELVA at Darley but had constant reliability issues with it.

I remember Bob winning on the Oulton at Cadwell back in the days when my neighbour Roger Marshall was first starting out as a club rider and I used to go along to watch him, Bob had that Greeves well sorted and rode it incredibly hard, and as you say, it took a very good Yamaha rider to hang on to him.

I used Spondon parts quite a lot when I was running TZ's and met Bob at their place a few times, he and Stuart were brilliant engineers, and to this day I have never seen welding as neat as on their frames and swing arms, I used to run my fingers over it when cleaning my bikes and marvel at the skill involved.

Slightly off topic, I used a Spondon swing arm in '76 before I had a monoshock conversion by Harris, superb quality.

<a href="http://s566.photobuc...B.2jpg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="https://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss102/greg1953_photo/me%20at%20Croft%201976%20TZ350B.2jpg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo me at Croft 1976 TZ350B.2jpg.jpg"/></a>



#19 tonyed

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 15:25

I too had a TZ250A/B with a Harris monoshock rear end.

 

My favourite 'Harris Rear End' moment was at Snetterton in the 70s in the scrutineering queue with Ron Mellor. He sat on his Seeley and I was on my Yamaha. Behind (no pun intended) us was John Gibbons with his 750 Norton. Up came Mrs Gibbons, who was well known for her, how shall I put it in these days of political correctness, well shaped 'derriere'.

 

Mr Mellor, with that loverly sarf London accent piped up wiv ' Cor look at the 'arris on that'.

 

Well it was the 70s  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :up:  :love:  :love:  :love:  :love:  :love:  :love:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :confused:   


Edited by tonyed, 02 October 2017 - 05:39.


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#20 PJ52

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 16:46

Ah, those were the days....Ron Mellor, known to us at the time as Lateron, his father being known as Earlieron.  ...I'll get my coat.



#21 Robin127

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 17:58

Ron Mellor always wore that woolly hat, even in the summer.



#22 mdvineng

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:56

I seem to remember the twin Greeves unit as a bit of a filling loosener :D



#23 Herr Wankel

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 18:58

Mike Hose on Peter Coogans Ariel Arrow/Leader has won the Pre TT Classic lightweight race on the Southern 100 circuit (again). It'll be quick when they get it sorted !!

#24 tonyed

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 05:24

Such a tragedy when the 'management' ( :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: ) of Ariel decided that the best way to challenge the Japanese invaders was to beat them back into the sea with the Ariel 3 and the Pixie.  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:

 

Clueless ain't innit  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  

 

As with this countries current situation anything achieved is despite the hopeless tos**rs than run the joint.

 

Going back to our Arrer we fitted twin Wal Phillips 'fuel injectors' which for the uninitiated to these are basically a venturi with a jet and a butterfly.

 

My Dad spent hours setting these up jetting the flow rate correct but could we get it to run properly?

 

So in the end we fitted Amal MK 1 Concentrics and still it wouldn't run properly until we discovered that the coils were incorrectly wired. Some incompetent had connected them the wrong way round. (How I never became a politician I don't know)  


Edited by tonyed, 28 May 2018 - 05:35.


#25 johnyC

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 08:48

I had the pleasure of John Rimmer's company over the weekend, marshaling beside him at Billown dip. His first comment to me at Friday's practice, after the MV triple had stopped at Ballabeg "I beat that very bike once you know, at Daytona on my G50" what a treat to hear his tales over the three days. There was a fair bit of banter about the 3cyl 250 and the internals of those quick arrows (and suzukis) Great to meet him and that he's still there at Billown after being injured in the awful events of 2016.

#26 Herr Wankel

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 17:52

Good story johnyC. I would love half an hours chat with him

#27 46700

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 10:01

I remember Bill Boddice had a ride on a Sidecar with an Ariel Arrow four I don't think anything came of it shame I think Peter Brown ended up with the frame     Bill Lawrence

Did Bill Stuart the Norton Tuner have some input into this project or is my brain fade worse than I thought ?



#28 knickerbrook

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 21:59

Yes, Bill Stuart did indeed have an involvement with Ariel Arrows. The Mick Walker book of the Manx Norton has a page on Stuart that states he did much of the bench work on Herman Meier's racing Arrow. (No mention of the Boddice project, but given the Meier connection, I would think it quite likely).



#29 46700

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 13:53

Yes, Bill Stuart did indeed have an involvement with Ariel Arrows. The Mick Walker book of the Manx Norton has a page on Stuart that states he did much of the bench work on Herman Meier's racing Arrow. (No mention of the Boddice project, but given the Meier connection, I would think it quite likely).

The reason for posting that was I was mechanic /gopher forPhilip Robinson when he raced F3 500cc Coopers 1954 on till around 60 & we/me often went to Bills at Aston Cantlow to take/collect motors & remember seeing Arrow motors in various stages of undress in his workshop I always thought Bill never got the recognition he deserved as in my opinion his motors were equal to Beart ,Lancefield ,Petty, etc.with a rider/driver of comparable  skill



#30 knickerbrook

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 16:58

Here is your man!

 

Bill-Stuart.jpg



#31 46700

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 15:47

Here is your man!

 

Bill-Stuart.jpg

Thanks for that brings back memories see it must have been in his smoke free period as no pipe clamped firmly between teeth