111 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

Recently I've been driving up to date Focus and derivatives. So I've been exposed to auto stop start in petrol manuals (not too bad) auto stop start in automatic diesels (intrusive but not unsafe feeling) electric park brakes (idiotic) automatic emergency braking (untested)  intelligent cruise control (ie it slows down to match the car in front- I rather like it) blind spot warning (seems a nervous Nelly but I don't dislike it) and lane tracking warning (jury is out on this, but I can see the point).

 

The intelligent cruise control has a rather serious problem, if you set it to 102 kph, and the guy in front slows down to 80 and then 60 as you enter a town, the car tracks his speed nicely. But if he turns off, then your car accelerates up to 102 kph.

[Bloggsworth]

Aotu stop/start can be an expensive business on cars which use the starter motor and ring-gear, specially when you live in a city like London, where it's on and off every 30 seconds. The cost of replacing both far outweighs the saving in petrol. The diesel Mazda I had temporary use of would squirt and fire in a cylinder just past TDC, don't know if that works with petrol. I used a VW Passat in which the "intelligent" cruise control would switch itself on even if I'd switched it off - Very disconcerting! It seems that if you had maintained a constant speed for about 30 seconds, it decided that you were cruising. I was quietly driving down an empty street, when for no reason at all, the car started braking - Weird, no cars, dogs, pedestrians; it just applied the brakes for no discernable reason - I am not impressed.

[Wuzak]

Recently I've been driving up to date Focus and derivatives. So I've been exposed to auto stop start in petrol manuals (not too bad) auto stop start in automatic diesels (intrusive but not unsafe feeling) electric park brakes (idiotic) automatic emergency braking (untested)  intelligent cruise control (ie it slows down to match the car in front- I rather like it) blind spot warning (seems a nervous Nelly but I don't dislike it) and lane tracking warning (jury is out on this, but I can see the point).

 

The intelligent cruise control has a rather serious problem, if you set it to 102 kph, and the guy in front slows down to 80 and then 60 as you enter a town, the car tracks his speed nicely. But if he turns off, then your car accelerates up to 102 kph.

 

Can you turn things like auto stop/start off?

[BRG]

I rented an Opel Astra (petrol turbo) recently that had most of this stuff. 

 

The stop/start was so unobtrusive that I didn't realise it had it for a couple of days.  How do these work, as it didn't appear to utilise the regular starter motor? Whatever, it was a definitely useful function.

 

Lane assist was OK-ish, although a bit annoying if you changed lanes with it on as it fought back at you. Then I found that as long as you signalled before changing lanes, it let you do it unimpeded....doh!

 

Electric park brake - not sure; I liked that you could just drive off and it disengaged itself, which was great on hill starts.  But engaging it seemed to inevitably cause a lurch even if you were absolutely stationary.  So, a bit crude.  And how do you do a hand-brake turn??

 

Auto lights and wipers - these worked really well and this functionality has improved massively over the last few years to be really sensitive. 

 

I swear by cruise control and annoyingly haven't got it on my own car (it was a mega good deal and that was the only casualty so I had to grin and bear it).  Haven't tried an intelligent one, but it sounds a sensible development, although I can see the issues that have been raised about it.  Maybe only intelligent drivers should be allowed to have it?

 

I think the Astra had auto braking but the need never arose so I can't comment other than to say that, like ABS, anything that enhances braking safety ought to be a good thing. 

 

Parking sensors front and rear are a great idea - on paper - but can be incredibly annoying in real life.  And far from infallible, getting their panties in an uproar over a blade of grass.  We fell foul of them whilst ski-ing when we reversed into a ski holder on a van that was mounted too high for the sensors to pick it up.  A work in progress, I suppose.

 

All these are straws in the wind of the coming of autonomous vehicles of course, so perhaps we should fight back and demand to retain full control?  Or follow the aeronautical world and welcome anything that makes your journey safer.

 

Re Wuzak's question, you can usually turn all these things off - provided you can understand the increasingly complex infotainment and control systems on modern cars!  Find a  handy 5 year old - they are usually better at IT things than adults.

[Bloggsworth]

I rented an Opel Astra (petrol turbo) recently that had most of this stuff. 

 

Electric park brake - not sure; I liked that you could just drive off and it disengaged itself, which was great on hill starts.  But engaging it seemed to inevitably cause a lurch even if you were absolutely stationary.  So, a bit crude.  And how do you do a hand-brake turn??

 

.

 

 

Violently!

[GreenMachine]

The intelligent cruise control has a rather serious problem, if you set it to 102 kph, and the guy in front slows down to 80 and then 60 as you enter a town, the car tracks his speed nicely. But if he turns off, then your car accelerates up to 102 kph.

 

Not really, an irritant certainly but I wouldn't call it a 'major problem'.  I presume that a quick tap on the brake will disconnect it? It may catch out a negligent driver though, which I am sure you are not. In any event it is something the driver should be aware of, so that he may be prepared for this behaviour.
 

I swear by cruise control and annoyingly haven't got it on my own car (it was a mega good deal and that was the only casualty so I had to grin and bear it).  Haven't tried an intelligent one, but it sounds a sensible development, although I can see the issues that have been raised about it.  Maybe only intelligent drivers should be allowed to have it?

 

Me too, though I have only the dumb version! You can get aftermarket units, or used to. I am not sure how much of a market for these exists these days though.

[Greg Locock]

I'm going to suggest to the human interface bods that they add a polite 'beep' when the ICC loses lock on the car in front. Yes you can switch autostopstart off. They use the same starter motor but are now rated for a million stop start cycles (I read somewhere). When was the last time you replaced a starter motor on a modern car? there's a reason for that, particularly if it is about the size of a coffee mug.

[gruntguru]

Apart from starters being so much more durable these days, IC engines are much easier to start - especially when warmed up.

 

I am fascinated by the concept of injecting fuel into a (hot) stationary diesel engine to start it. Haven't heard that before.

[RogerGraham]

 

The intelligent cruise control has a rather serious problem, if you set it to 102 kph, and the guy in front slows down to 80 and then 60 as you enter a town, the car tracks his speed nicely. But if he turns off, then your car accelerates up to 102 kph.

 

Shouldn't the car be continuously reading the road signs and/or using map data to figure out the correct speed, to stop it accelerating back to 102kph? 

Or does the driver-determined cruise-control speed override any information the car has on the current speed limit?  If so, that seems like a strange design choice - or at least, one that shouldn't be the default behaviour.

[Greg Locock]

This is not an autonomous car with vision. The speed limit sign you see on your nav is derived from a map and would be too dangerous to use without visual context. It would seem obvious to you or me to have the speed limit broadcast continually along each road, but i think that is a long way off in practice. I'll ask them why they don't give the option of sticking to the nav speed limits.

[Alfisti]

Despise auto stop to save 0.011111% of fuel and also despise, with a passion, electric park brake. It's slow and tedious compared to just pulling a damned lever!

[Greg Locock]

Psychologically I'd have thought adding a timer and a display to show how much fuel auto stop start has saved would be a good move, unless it revealed that the savings were truly pathetic, as you and I suspect, and that it is just there for compliance reasons.

[GreenMachine]

I'm going to suggest to the human interface bods that they add a polite 'beep' when the ICC loses lock on the car in front. 

 

Good idea.

 

Another option might be auto-disconnect below a certain threshold, say 70 or 80kmh, on loss of lock , or delta V between set speed and actual speed.

[Wuzak]

Shouldn't the car be continuously reading the road signs and/or using map data to figure out the correct speed, to stop it accelerating back to 102kph? 

 

I believe BMW had a system which was able to read road signs and adjusted cruise accordingly.

 

Supposedly they didn't bring it to Australia because speed zones change too often, confusing the system.

[BRG]

Psychologically I'd have thought adding a timer and a display to show how much fuel auto stop start has saved would be a good move, unless it revealed that the savings were truly pathetic, as you and I suspect, and that it is just there for compliance reasons.

UK TV car show 'Fifth Gear' did a back-to-back test around a course of roads in Birmingham to test whether there was a saving and found that indeed there was, albeit a rather small one.  But presumably over a tankfull's distance it would be enough to justify having the function, which is after all there to improve the manufacturer's mileage lie (sorry, I mean claim).

Edited by BRG, 06 October 2017 - 16:27.

[sblick]

Auto Stop/Start on GM uses alternator believe it or not.  I thought Ford used a magnetic set up in bell housing to turn motor over.  CO2 output of car is driving the Auto Stop/Start function.  In USA the OEMs can't show fuel savings of start/stop on sticker although it is supposed to be worth 5%.

Hill Hold can be done with ABS module or Electronic Parking Brake.  If it is short duration (5-10 seconds) it is most like using ABS module.  If longer duration the EPB will kick in.  New vacuum-less braking can use a few different ways.  Look at new Alfa Giulia it has no Vacuum Booster just MC, motor, and pedal simulator.  Turbo motors and hybrids are driving this new technology.

Auto cruise is cool but yes you definitely need to be aware of car in front of you.  I have the opposite problem of Greg in that is if you turn the car and lose the car in front it will accelerate to 102kph.  Nice acceleration through the corners.  Usually on the dash there is a silhouette of a car or something that tells you if the ACC has locked on car in front.  I call it "socialist cruise control" because you end up doing the speed everyone else is doing.  If you are cruising along at 80mph and car in front of you is doing 70, imperceptibly you slow to 70 and don't know it until you look down or car passes you.  Check out new Cadillac Super Cruise.  Besides Tesla's stuff.

Believe it or not Electronic Parking Brake saves 5-10 pounds per car.  I seriously find this hard to believe but I work for a company that makes them.  They are working a lot faster and in emergency, no brake fluid, they can be used to stop you.  Even are fast enough for rudimentary ABS.

[Lee Nicolle]

I may be old fashioned but the toys are that toys! My 4000 mile sojourn around England in the renta KIA GT diesel was at times bloody annoying. Auto wipers which flailed away at times with a few spots but then turned off in drizzle! A feature I do not ever need!

Auto stop start I consider to be bloody dangerous. And modern starters do die, I have changed a few. That seem to have the car built around them!

It had the speed limits in the computer as part of the cruise, in theory good in practice bad as the so many limits had changed and the car was about 4 months old!

Auto on lights worry me, will the lights actually go off! My ute takes about a minute at times, hence I do not use it. Though my Landcruiser turns them off when you want them to light up something. A g/f relies on them all the time. Her battery went dead flat once. Never been certain why. Lights or some other fault

 

The Kia also had the stupid credit card key and coupled with the push button starter to start and turn off was very annoying. Plus being a renta had no owners books to even work out how things worked.

The Sangyong on Guernsey too was terrible though that is a truly terrible car. My brother drove in France and the Hyundia SUV too had some strange features and he kept on turning on the wipers to turn corners! Might I add all 3 cars booked in advance were not the ones booked. 2 were ok however and probably improvements on what was booked. Though 2 of the 3 tried to update us,, and we would not play!

 

Though ofcourse my pet peeve, every car is different, even for basic controls. Such as light switch wiper sw and turn signals. And these days increasingly the bloody gear lever! My sister and partner rented a Benz in England and it had a knob for a gear lever and I have odd, very odd Euro vehicles here for maintenance  with very weird and dumb methods of doing very simple things. Lets reinvent the wheel, stupid!!

 

And that really is most of these stupid toys, reinventing the wheel for no reason.

[MatsNorway]

Lights on/off in tunnels etc. should be banned. By law you also have to run with lights on in Norway. Makes it possible to differentiate between a car waiting/stopping or a parked car in tight.

 

Also lights auto on in a tunnel scares she shite out of a biker. Because he things the car is braking suddenly.

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 October 2017 - 11:22.

[BRG]

Also lights auto on in a tunnel scares she shite out of a biker. Because he things the car is braking suddenly.

That's a good thing, surely?  Anything that reminders bikers that they aren't immortal and that they are also covered by speed limits must be good.

[Fat Boy]

Auto cruise control is annoying as hell. I drive on busy highways. If you plan ahead, you can almost always move through traffic without clicking the cruise on & off. With this arrangement, you get behind someone and it slows down. It makes moving through traffic clunky as hell. I just shut it off and drive on the throttle. If you aren't aware enough to monitor your own damned cruise control, don't drive...seriously.

[Greg Locock]

"Plus being a renta had no owners books" yeah that's a pet peeve of mine as well.

[BRG]

"Plus being a renta had no owners books" yeah that's a pet peeve of mine as well.

Aren't they usually in the glove box?  I recall hiring a car in Switzerland and it was an early keyless ignition system.  I didn't know that you had to depress the clutch (or was it the brake?) and found myself stuck in the middle of nowhere - which is near Zurich - unable to start the car.  I found the manual in the glove box but it was in German which I don't read, but being Swiss, there was also one in French which I was able to figure out.

[chunder27]

Auto lights, auto wipers?

 

These are things that are simply unnecessary on road cars, and are pandering to the poor training and simple inability of most drivers out there to have a basic understanding of what hazards there are.

 

You only have to witness the incompetence around fog lights (front and rear) to see this in action.  Peoples total lack of special awareness around cyclists, their complete lack of vision at roundabouts and junctions.

 

This is not something that should be covered up with manufacturers nanny stating things like lights and wipers.

 

Better training would be the best answer and it would benefit us all.

 

Only this morning I was travelling to work in traffic, a cyclist on the road, panic ensues, people puling onto the opposite side of the road to pass something two feet wide.  A woman in a 4x4 (shocked eh) was hesitating to pass, with a large area on the right before she would even go on the opposite side, and she was so hesitant I got a bit close, and her response was to get past and slam the brakes on to try and cause an accident! 

 

That is mentality of these people, and it is driving manufacturers sadly. Instead of education and measures to help them deal with hazards.

[Charlieman]

Auto lights has always seemed logical to me. When you start a car in a floodlit car park and drive onto a well lit road, it's very easy to forget to turn lights on. I'm from the generation who learned to depress the clutch and turn off all unnecessary electrics before turning the starter switch -- then you turn on the headlights.

 

One thing I learned from human training courses is that it is very difficult to create common sense. Some people find it difficult to do things which might be reactive for others. If you see well in the dark, you may not appreciate that your unlit car is a hazard. Sometimes engineers have to give drivers a helping hand, respecting other human factors. 

[BRG]

I would have thought that chunder27 was old enough to remember the good old, bad old days when drivers wouldn't put on their lights until sometime after midnight in some misguided attempt to save fuel or something. 

 

At least nowadays, most people use lights more readily if it is gloomy or raining, which must be safer.  And with daylight running lights now mandatory, it is easy to think you have all your lights on when you don't.  So auto lights ought to be a positive contribution to safety.  Auto wipers?  Not so much.

[chunder27]

I can see the point to some extent.

 

It's when they come in when a car is driving through a 200 metre tunnel that they look a bit silly!

 

I recall a Top Gear when May lost his McLaren key fob thing, and then obviously had to block the car in somehow as it was in the car somewhere but he couldn't find it!

 

I realise this is a somewhat extreme point, but is having a entry fob really a good idea!!! What benefit does it offer?  Just a rather pointless idea. Or even simpler, give it a home in the car?

[sblick]

I like auto lights and wipers but they tend to be on much more expensive vehicles here in the US.  With suppliers you have to deal with competence of the software engineers and the OEM integrating the software.  It can make for a convenience item becoming a pain in the arse.  Problem with LEDs these days is the side marker lights are strong enough to make you think your lights are on.  Hence the need for auto lights.

Auto lights can be controlled sometimes in the center stack interface for when they turn on and off, and how long.  Auto lights stay on for minutes at a time to light the area the car is in for nefarious people or conditions.  I think this was started in US where we have a lot of nefarious dudes hanging out. 

A real problem with dead batteries and new cars is the key fob being to close to the car.  We are all familiar with a shelf inside the house but close to car/garage.  The car senses the key fob close and "awakens" turning on lights and interior stuff for a couple minutes and then shuts down when you don't start the car.  This is an endless loop, especially if on vacation, that kills the battery. 

[BRG]

I recall a Top Gear when May lost his McLaren key fob thing, and then obviously had to block the car in somehow as it was in the car somewhere but he couldn't find it!

 

I realise this is a somewhat extreme point, but is having a entry fob really a good idea!!! What benefit does it offer?  Just a rather pointless idea. Or even simpler, give it a home in the car?

Don't start me on keyless cars!!  Such a daft idea, just the wet-dream of some auto electrics designers and marketing people, it is of no benefit to the car owner at all and of course the poor bloody owner still has to pay for it whether he wants it or not.  Mercifully, the early efforts at this which were seriously irritating have been somewhat watered down so that now you have a thingy which you push into a slot.  Isn't a key cheaper?  But just not technofrolic enough...

[Charlieman]

I would have thought that chunder27 was old enough to remember the good old, bad old days when drivers wouldn't put on their lights until sometime after midnight in some misguided attempt to save fuel or something. 

A lot of practices are silly. Morris Bullnose owners and the like learned to reverse park fairly big cars; by a front first start, less pull on the choke and more eye on the instruments, drivers reckoned that they used less petrol.

 

By my experience, it is easier to drive straight ahead into a small space and reverse into a big one, than the other way around. 

[Nathan]

Before we had 'chipping' and signal manipulation to add performance, I wonder if we will get that for disengaging some of these features?

[MatsNorway]

That's a good thing, surely?  Anything that reminders bikers that they aren't immortal and that they are also covered by speed limits must be good.

Slamming the brakes for no reason is never good. Imagine a car passes close and then the lights go on in rain. Perhaps the biker thinks he is being brake checked or is not seen.

[chunder27]

I must make it clear, in the long term I am all for "driverless" cars that can drive themselves, I would love to get into a vehicle and not have to drive it anywhere if I had the choice and it could do it for me, having to commute is the most time wasting, miserable and depressing part of my life, I loathe it, as must most people surely. So removing my participation in that woeful experience would be wonderful!

 

But offering token aspects of that technology for me is pointless.

 

Should we really be building things into cars to cater for dumbass, lazy drivers who can't work out when to turn on their wipers and lights?  But who love showing they have front fog lights?

 

Let me share another moment of awareness. When I was a kid pulling on a handbrake was a simple way of controlling your car at a stop and it will always be for me, have you noticed that since the handbrake was largely replaced by a button, how many people now sit with their foot on the brake in traffic, resting a brake pad on an already hot disc, probably meaning it will warp quicker? I know some of this is down to semi-auto boxes and modern gearboxes in some cars, but not all. Pressing a button is now seemingly harder than pulling on a mechanical brake!! 

 

Or is that me showing an element of hatred of the nanny state world we live in!!

[Almag]

I have the opposite problem of Greg in that is if you turn the car and lose the car in front it will accelerate to 102kph.  Nice acceleration through the corners.  

Many modern cars modulate the cruise control based on input from the car's lateral accelerometer. It slows the car in corners so as to remain below some predetermined (and fixed) lat accel threshold, regardless of your set speed. Generally the execution is very conservative (low g threshold) and nondefeatable, which annoys me to no end.

Edited by Almag, 10 October 2017 - 16:18.

[Greg Locock]

Are you sure that is what is happening? Which cars is that? I do know the Ford ESC interacts with cruise control in an annoying fashion -basically if you go in fast into a corner on a gravel road the ESC intervenes and this knocks the cruise control out- the simple answer is just to hit the throttle before the corner - but this is not what you are describing.

[Almag]

Yes, this slowing-you-down-in-corners is a real thing. BMW calls it 'Curve Speed Limiter.' Certain Infinitis (maybe all of them by now) do it. Hyundai/Kia, too. Plus others I can't think of.

[Greg Locock]

Yes that would be annoying.

[scolbourne]

Yes that would be annoying.

We will find with time sports car companies will improve their AI cornering speeds so that they could be as good  or better than a humans. It will be a crazy world on country roads with high performance AI cars scaring their occupants whilst remaining legal and fairly safe. Their probably will be laws pushed into force by the insurance companies, who have to pay when one of their insured cars hits some oil and causes a serious accident, to always have these cars drive very conservatively.

[Almag]

We will find with time sports car companies will improve their AI cornering speeds so that they could be as good  or better than a humans. It will be a crazy world on country roads with high performance AI cars scaring their occupants whilst remaining legal and fairly safe. Their probably will be laws pushed into force by the insurance companies, who have to pay when one of their insured cars hits some oil and causes a serious accident, to always have these cars drive very conservatively.

Porsche's "Innodrive" is a bit like that. It is adaptive cruise control that has a 3 km prediction horizon. It adjusts accel/decel rates & shift calibration by modeling in real time the upcoming elevation changes, corner radii and speed limits along your route. In certain markets it also factors traffic, the states of upcoming signals, any road construction events etc.

 

The idea behind this system is to save fuel. Early test versions had a mode that would take corners at 0.7 g. Which on a country road is really quite something. It was deemed too aggressive so the current version is toned down a bit.

[Greg Locock]

"AI cornering speeds so that they could be as good  or better than a human" That's a slightly different proposition. BMW are deliberately slowing the car to limit the latacc under cruise control, probably far below what the vehicle is capable of, for comfort and to avoid scaring other road users (I'd suggest 0.3g). Under ESC/TC  at full throttle a car will corner at similar lataccs to a moderately skilled human driver and it is instructive to experiment with vehicle attitude (ie throttle pedal) to see where the ESC helps and where it doesn't. As an example, Fiesta is not exactly overpowered at 100 kph, and on  one sweeping turn on gravel roads quite a lot of  throttle is needed to keep the vehicle attitude fairly neutral under slight acceleration, without the electronics banging around too much. The trick with cornering using EPAS/ESC is to realise that the steering wheel angle is being used as a yaw velocity demand input, where as with manual/HPAS/no ESC you are supplying a combination of a steer angle and a torque to the front tires. 

[Tenmantaylor]

UK TV car show 'Fifth Gear' did a back-to-back test around a course of roads in Birmingham to test whether there was a saving and found that indeed there was, albeit a rather small one.  But presumably over a tankfull's distance it would be enough to justify having the function, which is after all there to improve the manufacturer's mileage lie (sorry, I mean claim).

 

Surely the best bit is the environment, fellow drivers and those living close to roads? The levels of toxic pollutants inside cars when driving in traffic is often worse than a nearby pedestrian. I'd really appreciate being behind a car with start stop when in even a short traffic jam.

[BRG]

I am currently touring in a Peugeot 2008 -a hateful car - which features automatic wipers that you have to "activate" each time you drive it. What is the point of that? And don't get me started on the annoying infotainment screen. Grrr.

[gruntguru]

The trick with cornering using EPAS/ESC is to realise that the steering wheel angle is being used as a yaw velocity demand input . . .

At most (low tyre slip-angle) speeds the steering wheel angle demands a turning radius. Is it similar for ESC and high slip angles?

[Greg Locock]

That's not how I'd thought of it but yes, for a given speed, so long as you are not tail out. Then it gets more complicated, as you can have zero SWA but still be cornering (standard silly game, steer into the corner, hit the throttle, get the tail out, centre the SWA and drive round the corner on the throttle). I haven't tried that on a modern car, the limit would be too high for public roads and the fun destroyers don't let me mess about at the proving ground any more.

[sblick]

If you were zero SWA and tail out the Stability Control will kick in.  I have done it.  If that short definition is what you mean.  There is a yaw sensor under the seat which will call up the electronic baby sitters.  Hence the "Drift Mode" of Focus, MB, and BMW to get rid of the electronics till a certain yaw angle

To clarify this was done on a test track on a very large field of ice

Edited by sblick, 13 October 2017 - 15:27.

[Bob Riebe]

Can these protect you from your self stupidities be shut off?

I removed cruise-control from my one Oldsmobile and this sounds like the car companies are assuming all drivers are as smart as a pail of rocks.

[sblick]

They can be shut off in a lot of performance cars.  In a regular sedan there might be a button but it will turn it off 98% or so.  What I mean by that is mostly it won't intervene if you seem like you have control.  Hit the right SWA rate or yaw angle/rate and it will cut in.  A lot of people think if they turn off the Traction Control button they turn off Stability Control but that is not true mostly.  And as we know Physics rules, you can't overcome those rules.

[Charlieman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-41633941

 

"If the steering column module clock spring is broken and the wiring components are not sufficiently earthed, this could lead to an electrostatic discharge which could inadvertently deploy the driver's airbag," the spokesperson said. 

The cars are safe to drive under normal operating conditions, but if the driver airbag warning light comes on, customers should call roadside assistance or contact their nearest retailer."

What is a "steering column module clock spring"?

[sblick]

I know inside the center hub of the steering wheel where all the electronics come through for blinkers and wipers and of course airbags there is a spring in there.  Why I really don't know but if I run into one of our engineers I will ask.

[Greg Locock]

hah. I used to work with these. It's a ribbon cable shaped like a clock spring that carries all the important signals from the steering wheel to the car, and back. They are fairly expensive, so less important signals may still be sent via the old plate and wiper system (don't know about that). They have a fairly limited travel lock to lock for a given application, so a good way of breaking them is to install your steering wheel one turn off centre. 

[sblick]

So I was semi-right.  Woo hoo!  I know our company was having NVH problems with them for a while so they were bugging me for my hemi-anechoic chamber and a little expertise