10584 replies to this topic

[potmotr]

Very decent drive by Hartley yesterday...

[JG]

A bit off topic, I just remembered Leyton House.

what were the story regarding Leyton House in the late 80's/early 90's? Wasn't there some shady business?

[Blundle]

losing main sponsor which was if I remember 25M, less money from Liberty, less for last place in WCC table, both paydrivers were worth >40M ... you must be right, Williams got great talent for 1 $ and I guess George drives for free .... yeah right

 

I didn't say that, what I said is that random posters on here have no idea of the financial settlement between Williams and Mercedes. They have said that that there was no commercial incentive provided for signing Russell. Are you saying they're lying?  

 

Have a look at Williams' overall financial position - it's reasonably healthy and quite possibly sufficient to allow them to sign Russell without any kickback. That $40m from pay drivers doesn't go up in smoke on 31 December, Stroll Snr has to pay an exit fee (reportedly) and nobody knows what sponsorship they have lined up for next season. 

[theflyingwheel]

No, only Ocon has a problem then.

Agree, Ocon loosing 2 years straight vs a Paydriver who also did a podium in the same car as Ocon and then loosing to a Rookie is something that for sure doesnt go on a top team material curriculum despite the “potential” (whatever that means).

Edited by theflyingwheel, 22 October 2018 - 15:39.

[RSRally]

More on Rich Energy and their owner: http://www.telegraph...-scientist/amp/

Makes things sound slightly more credible but still only expecting turnover of £20m this year.

[Berner]

Very decent drive by Hartley yesterday...

Ruined by some immature, snotty comments on his future delivered in the post-race pen. Really? At his age?

[rkrp]

About Rich Energy. Canned caffeine is all about marketing. And let's face it: none of us have even seen the can yet we talk about it for days now. It might be that they're good at marketing. To product a can of energy drink it cost about 10-15 cents - the rest is mostly marketing, so once they manage to make the brand well known they don't need to fear about the demand. 

We've seen some attempts on F1 like Marussia or Spyker. A whole teams backed by small producers with no real perspective to grow. Not a case here. It's only about title sponsorship that cost Martini 15 mln a year and it might be now less since Williams is dead last. If RE is at Williams doors with a bag of money, willing to pay it upfront then IMO the Rich Energy Williams Racing is more then possible.

 

Also: it's not like Claire has dozens of title sponsorships offers to choose from. I think it's harder to get any sponsors nowadays in general.  Ask McLaren   

[Maxioos]

Ruined by some immature, snotty comments on his future delivered in the post-race pen. Really? At his age?

 

What "post-race pen"?

 

What i read wasn't immature or snotty.

 

"Really happy with my performance and race today which was rewarded with two points. I was aggressive when I needed to be and did a good job with tyres, the team gave me good info from the pits and the mechanics did a good pit stop - a team effort! From last on the grid to P9 was the max we could do today, and I'm happy with the aggression I showed and how the race went. Even if the points haven't come, I have been very strong in all the last races and am very motivated and optimistic for the rest of the season and beyond."

 

https://scuderiatoro...sa-grand-prix-1

[Kev00]

Ruined by some immature, snotty comments on his future delivered in the post-race pen. Really? At his age?

What did he say?

[noriaki]

A bit off topic, I just remembered Leyton House.
what were the story regarding Leyton House in the late 80's/early 90's? Wasn't there some shady business?

They were a fairly reliable sponsor for 5 years until the owner Akira Akagi simply went bust in the early 90's Japanese financial crisis. March (whom they were sponsoring) did so a year after. Not really comparable to Rich Energy imo

[Louis Mr. F1]

so Scuderia Ferrari still would not do a U-turn on their decision and get Alonso in place of Vettel?  the guy is still available - please let this silly season get more silly 

[Dolph]

Very decent drive by Hartley yesterday...

 

He only beat the Williamses, Vandoorne and Gasly... If the rest hadnt self-destructed and DQ'd he'd be 16th... Seems to me smth you'd expect as a bare minimum from an F1 driver - beat the slower cars and your teammate as well some of the time.

Edited by Dolph, 22 October 2018 - 18:48.

[Maxioos]

About Rich Energy. Canned caffeine is all about marketing. And let's face it: none of us have even seen the can yet we talk about it for days now. It might be that they're good at marketing. To product a can of energy drink it cost about 10-15 cents - the rest is mostly marketing, so once they manage to make the brand well known they don't need to fear about the demand. 

We've seen some attempts on F1 like Marussia or Spyker. A whole teams backed by small producers with no real perspective to grow. Not a case here. It's only about title sponsorship that cost Martini 15 mln a year and it might be now less since Williams is dead last. If RE is at Williams doors with a bag of money, willing to pay it upfront then IMO the Rich Energy Williams Racing is more then possible.
 
Also: it's not like Claire has dozens of title sponsorships offers to choose from. I think it's harder to get any sponsors nowadays in general.  Ask McLaren 

Did some google searches also. Could not read that whole article in post prior yours, so don't know what is in that. I did see references (promo party) from back in 2012, so they are around for some time and combined with their partners etc. I also concluded they are legit and as you could understand that global name recognition marketing through F1 could be logic.

I'm more concerned with their business model. Focusing on the high class who will pay big money for the exclusivity. But do rich people drink energy cans? I doubt it highly. At least that they drink it enough for such promotion that is needed for global name recognition. I also don't expect the F1 fans are the ones that will buy their expensive 2 cans gift box or are often in a Hilton. They should have a product line for general public to make such sponsorship more understandable for me for this company. Otherwise should sponsoring golf, hockey, horses, etc. Be far more direct potential costumers advertising I would expect.

Their company philosophy of high market doesn't match their promo plan ala Red Bull fixed on extreme sport/athlete and the forthcoming of their CEO imo.

It's just strange there is a press release of a sponsorship long distance boat but nowhere a picture of that specific boat in action with the sponsorship used for promotion for instance. Almost all or possibly even all pictures seem to be promotion pictures, very good and high quality, but still promotion. Couldn't find pictures where it was standing on a bar or was consumed just in public somewhere.

To me, something just doesn't smell alright. I would do for sure more pre research than with a Philips, Microsoft, etc

[potmotr]

Ruined by some immature, snotty comments on his future delivered in the post-race pen. Really? At his age?

 

I think he's fully entitled to have his say.

 

If anything he's been guilty of not saying enough to defend himself this year.

[RSRally]

About Rich Energy. Canned caffeine is all about marketing. And let's face it: none of us have even seen the can yet we talk about it for days now. It might be that they're good at marketing.

Very good, since none of this really cost them a penny thus far!

A sponsorship of Williams certainly seems more viable than purchasing Force India outright.

[PayasYouRace]

He only beat the Williamses, Vandoorne and Gasly... If the rest hadnt self-destructed and DQ'd he'd be 16th... Seems to me smth you'd expect as a bare minimum from an F1 driver - beat the slower cars and your teammate as well some of the time.

Beating your highly rated teammate who is being promoted to the top team next year is definitely “very decent”. Maybe not excellent or even good, but certainly decent.

[tghik]

Beating your highly rated teammate who is being promoted to the top team next year is definitely “very decent”. Maybe not excellent or even good, but certainly decent.

One has to ask if Max will have easy time with Gasly. I think Pierre is overrated, and Max is too good, seems to me we'll see mismatched teammates

[SonGoku]

The Red Bull fans will lose their no number 2 argument soon, because that's what Gasly will be, a number 2 for Max, definitely when the Honda engine is good enough for the title challenge. Then it's back to the Vettel-Webber days.

[ernestomodena]

Did some google searches also. Could not read that whole article in post prior yours, so don't know what is in that. I did see references (promo party) from back in 2012, so they are around for some time and combined with their partners etc. I also concluded they are legit and as you could understand that global name recognition marketing through F1 could be logic.

I'm more concerned with their business model. Focusing on the high class who will pay big money for the exclusivity. But do rich people drink energy cans? I doubt it highly. At least that they drink it enough for such promotion that is needed for global name recognition. I also don't expect the F1 fans are the ones that will buy their expensive 2 cans gift box or are often in a Hilton. They should have a product line for general public to make such sponsorship more understandable for me for this company. Otherwise should sponsoring golf, hockey, horses, etc. Be far more direct potential costumers advertising I would expect.

Their company philosophy of high market doesn't match their promo plan ala Red Bull fixed on extreme sport/athlete and the forthcoming of their CEO imo.

It's just strange there is a press release of a sponsorship long distance boat but nowhere a picture of that specific boat in action with the sponsorship used for promotion for instance. Almost all or possibly even all pictures seem to be promotion pictures, very good and high quality, but still promotion. Couldn't find pictures where it was standing on a bar or was consumed just in public somewhere.

To me, something just doesn't smell alright. I would do for sure more pre research than with a Philips, Microsoft, etc

The pricing of the boxes are high the ones in the store the same as red bull. I would think there idea is to bram it as more like a party/ luxury brand. For the likes of mixing or dancing through the night.

If done properly the F1 image suits that audience.

But it seems to me it's more that that's the idea and well they got the money from somewhere so why not spend it. He clearly likes racing so why not spend it to get in the most exclusive of them all F1.

We seen those before trust comes to mind as well most of all the spyker sponsors where rich guys sitting in Amsterdam trying something new.

But if that's paying the bills at Williams I will buy a can.

[PedroDiCasttro]

Latest rumors are that Ferrari wants to sign Kubica to be their reserve driver in 2019.

 

https://it.eurosport...174/story.shtml

[WilliamsF1Fan]

It makes sense for Ferrari, they will need a driver for that role having lost Giovinazzi and Kvyat, but if Kubica wants to race next year it doesn't really further his ambitions, although being part of the Ferrari family might open doors at other series for him.  I assume the Williams F1 seat is still his first goal?  

[thuGG]

Latest rumors are that Ferrari wants to sign Kubica to be their reserve driver in 2019.

 

https://it.eurosport...174/story.shtml

 

It's probably based on one tweet from Albert Fabrega, which just connect the facts that Ferrari is without reserve driver and Robert is free.

Nothing in it IMO.

[HistoryFan]

Latest rumors are that Ferrari wants to sign Kubica to be their reserve driver in 2019.

 

https://it.eurosport...174/story.shtml

 

I understand that Wehrlein is in the mix at Ferrari as well...
 

[NorwegianRudo]

Agree, Ocon loosing 2 years straight vs a Paydriver who also did a podium in the same car as Ocon and then loosing to a Rookie is something that for sure doesnt go on a top team material curriculum despite the “potential” (whatever that means).

 

Perez is only considered a paydriver by idiots online. He's highly respected by actual F1 people.

[Myrvold]

Perez is only considered a paydriver by idiots online. He's highly respected by actual F1 people.

He is a paydriver.

Paydriver =/= bad driver.

[potmotr]

Perez is only considered a paydriver by idiots online. He's highly respected by actual F1 people.

 

I mean, he does bring money, and plenty of it.

 

But you're right, he's respected as a very effective points harvester. 

 

https://www.motorspo...uations-changed

[Pentecost]

Perez is only considered a paydriver by idiots online. He's highly respected by actual F1 people.

"Paydriver" is not up to interpretation. You're either paying for your drive, or you aren't. Perez brings money and it's been essential in his F1 career, Perez is a paydriver.

[sopa]

I mean, he does bring money, and plenty of it.

 

But you're right, he's respected as a very effective points harvester. 

 

https://www.motorspo...uations-changed

 

They say Perez' situation has changed.

 

Next year Perez comes up behind Stroll and tells on team radio - "I am faster. Let me ahead."

 

Lawrence connects to him from some obscure place - "You stay behind my son."

[potmotr]

They say Perez' situation has changed.

 

Next year Perez comes up behind Stroll and tells on team radio - "I am faster. Let me ahead."

 

Lawrence connects to him from some obscure place - "You stay behind my son."

 

Yes, that will be a super interesting dynamic of next season.

 

If Perez and Stroll bang wheels going down to Eau Rouge I wonder who'll get parked.  

[NorwegianRudo]

He is a very well paid driver, just because his popularity in Mexico brings in sponsors does not make him a paydriver.

 

What about Alonso and his Santander money through most of his career? Is he a paydriver?

[potmotr]

He is a very well paid driver, just because his popularity in Mexico brings in sponsors does not make him a paydriver.

 

What about Alonso and his Santander money through most of his career? Is he a paydriver?

 

It's an interesting question.

 

My understanding (based on a few Mark Hughes articles) is that Perez brings his group of sponsors to a team, then takes a percentage of that sponsorship money as his fee (the "well paid" part you mention).

 

I guess the next question is: would a team take Perez without the sponsors he brings? I think for a large part of his career the answer to that would be no. But perhaps not anymore as he's super consistent and effective, like a Mexican Nick Heidfeld.

 

Alonso, I think, could have most drives on talent alone. The Santander cash he used to bring is a nice bonus for a team, but not essential.

[SUFC]

They say Perez' situation has changed.

 

Next year Perez comes up behind Stroll and tells on team radio - "I am faster. Let me ahead."

 

Lawrence connects to him from some obscure place - "You stay behind my son."

Stroll won't be near Perez. 

[sopa]

It's an interesting question.

 

My understanding (based on a few Mark Hughes articles) is that Perez brings his group of sponsors to a team, then takes a percentage of that sponsorship money as his fee (the "well paid" part you mention).

 

I guess the next question is: would a team take Perez without the sponsors he brings? I think for a large part of his career the answer to that would be no. But perhaps not anymore as he's super consistent and effective, like a Mexican Nick Heidfeld.

 

Alonso, I think, could have most drives on talent alone. The Santander cash he used to bring is a nice bonus for a team, but not essential.

 

Considering over the years Perez has been approached by Renault (twice?), he certainly would be hired on merit (without sponsors) these days. Also there was a rumour McLaren was interested in him this year? The fact that McLaren hired him for 2013 was already a hiring on merit, even if he didn't quite live up to expectations.

 

Interesting though that Perez has thus far decided to prefer Force India to Renault. And till this day the decision looks fine despite Renault being a works team and all that. I guess he has found it hard to abandon a team, who needs him so badly (admittedly also from financial POV) and where he feels truly at home. So in a way Checo is loyal, but it may also be due to that his sponsors are closely affiliated to the team, which couldn't happen elsewhere. Also he believes F.I. can keep up their performance at least on a competitive midfield level. So that nobody apart from big three teams is an obviously better place to be in. If Perez got an offer from a top3 team, he would obviously be gone in a heartbeat, but that aint happening.

Edited by sopa, 23 October 2018 - 16:49.

[NorwegianRudo]

 

I guess the next question is: would a team take Perez without the sponsors he brings? I think for a large part of his career the answer to that would be no. But perhaps not anymore as he's super consistent and effective, like a Mexican Nick Heidfeld.

 

He got into F1 at least partly through sponsorship, but it certainly wasn't why McLaren signed him and he would have had a drive on merit ever since. 

[theflyingwheel]

It's an interesting question.

My understanding (based on a few Mark Hughes articles) is that Perez brings his group of sponsors to a team, then takes a percentage of that sponsorship money as his fee (the "well paid" part you mention).

I guess the next question is: would a team take Perez without the sponsors he brings? I think for a large part of his career the answer to that would be no. But perhaps not anymore as he's super consistent and effective, like a Mexican Nick Heidfeld.

Alonso, I think, could have most drives on talent alone. The Santander cash he used to bring is a nice bonus for a team, but not essential.

Since teams have taken drivers like Hulk who lost in points, podiums and got outraced and outqualified over the 3 seasons together, drivers like Sainz who got dominated by Hulkenberg or drivers like Ocon who lost vs Perez for two years straight im sure a team or two would pick him without the sponsor pack he brings.

Renault looked for him for two years straight and McLaren this year teams who dont necesary need sponsors so i think he would drive even without sponsors.

[MortenF1]

There are only two real pay drivers - Stroll and Ericsson. They do not get a salary from the team the drive for.
Perez has backers that follows him, but he is still employed/hired by the team.

[wj_gibson]

The poster above asking about Leyton House may be thinking of Andrea Moda or Monteverdi instead.

[midgrid]

A bit off topic, I just remembered Leyton House.

what were the story regarding Leyton House in the late 80's/early 90's? Wasn't there some shady business?

 

This article is a good potted history of March-Leyton House.

[messy]

There are only two real pay drivers - Stroll and Ericsson. They do not get a salary from the team the drive for.
Perez has backers that follows him, but he is still employed/hired by the team.

 

Down to one next year as we've finally seen the back of Ericsson.   

[Pentecost]

I'm sorry, it's in Dutch, but this article reports that Vandoorne will do simulation work for the Mercedes F1 team: https://sporza.be/nl...ton-in-simulat/

 

Can't find the original source.

[NorwegianRudo]

I'm sorry, it's in Dutch, but this article reports that Vandoorne will do simulation work for the Mercedes F1 team: https://sporza.be/nl...ton-in-simulat/

 

Can't find the original source.

 

Makes sense. Rumour is Albon was doing a lot of this year.

[cravenciak]

Gwen La Grue from Mercedes' junior program said to nextgen-auto, that Esteban Ocon's chances for a seat in 2019 are not big. He also said that Estaban has already signed a contract for 2020 (remember Toto saying he's sure that Ocon will drive a good car in 2020?).

[danmills]

I wouldn't rule out a matured and aged Perez replacing Vettel down the line for a stint. Like the Mexican Nick Heidfeld comment, he is a solid performer despite the fiery tendancies, brings the points home.

[Myrvold]

Down to one next year as we've finally seen the back of Ericsson.

But keep the money behind him in the team. So a win win really

[tghik]

I wouldn't rule out a matured and aged Perez replacing Vettel down the line for a stint. Like the Mexican Nick Heidfeld comment, he is a solid performer despite the fiery tendancies, brings the points home.

what for ? not going to happen, not a WDC potential and not number 2 driver, likes to squeeze his teammates to the the wall

[coppilcus]

what for ? not going to happen, not a WDC potential and not number 2 driver, likes to squeeze his teammates to the the wall

Never gets old...

[theflyingwheel]

what for ? not going to happen, not a WDC potential and not number 2 driver, likes to squeeze his teammates to the the wall

Yes agree no point in replacing Vettel with Perez and yes teams agree they dont want drivers that squeeze his teammates into the wall like Ocon in Baku 2017 or Ocon in Abu Dhabi 2016 with Whelrein

[noikeee]

He also said that Estaban has already signed a contract for 2020 (remember Toto saying he's sure that Ocon will drive a good car in 2020?).

 

Uhhh, where? There's no logical seat for him.

 

Already lined up to replace Bottas? A leading team signing a driver that was out on a sabbatical for a year?

Force Strolling Point, already replacing Perez? Why didn't they sign him for 2019 in the first place?

Williams? Why didn't they sign him already for 2019 in the first place?

A team without Mercedes engines? Why?

[johnwilliamdavies]

 

There are now only three drivers being mentioned in relation to the Williams' seat: Esteban Ocon, Robert Kubica and Nyck de Vries. Kubica has $10 million from Poland, while de Vries has the problem of not be assured of a superlicence until the Formula 2 season is finished. He is currently fourth in the championship and needs to retain that place to get the licence. Nyck also races in sports cars, sharing a Racing Team Netherlands Dallara-Gibson with Giedo van der Garde and Frits van Eerd. The car is sponsored by the Jumbo supermarket chain (which is owned by van Eerd and his family) and the suggestion is that he will provide money for de Vries to get into F1.

Having said that, Ocon remains the most likely choice because he is highly-rated in F1 and because Mercedes can help Williams with its costs in the future.

 

From Joe Saward.

[TomNokoe]

De Vries?!?!?