10584 replies to this topic

[MortenF1]

Beri, on 17 Jan 2019 - 10:49, said:

Stroll is the most underrated driver on the current grid. All brough upon himself by his attitude. But the guy can race. He will surprise many of us and will give Perez a run for Carlos Slim's money, if Force Canada gets its mess sorted out right.

What?? Absolutely not. Stroll will continue to be slow and not up to the task. Perez will trash him.

[sopa]

Even though Button and Raikkonen were beaten by their team-mates in their rookie seasons, they performed absolutely adequately for F1 standards and even showed signs of brilliance. Nothing un-F1worthy in their performance that would indicate they shouldn't have been there, even if they obviously weren't performing at their peak yet.

 

If I think of drivers, who were thrown into F1 too quickly, I think of Alguersuari and Grosjean in the middle of 2009 without any testing.

[noriaki]

BRG, on 19 Jan 2019 - 16:47, said:

There's a great big elephant over there - the one with Nelson Piquet jr and Piquet Sport written on it.  At least Lawrence Stroll didn't rename Prema after himself.  But I agree, young Nelson wasn't of much significance.

 

Oh yes, it does.

 

Do you want to continue this until the end of the pantomime season or shall we leave it there?

 

Yes, Nelson Piquet junior indeed is a great example of a driver who was hailed as a great junior talent, who was not at all generally criticized for his privilege nor for his F1 performances. 

 

Besides, Kimi took 7 seasons to get a title. You must, logically, think Danny Ricciardo and Mansell were rushed into the sport too I gather it? 

Edited by noriaki, 19 January 2019 - 18:15.

[noikeee]

Piquet Jr was pretty damn criticized too for having a team set up by his dad back then. He only started getting a pass from these forums when he legit challenged Hamilton for the GP2 title.

And I think it's a bit more honest to name the team after yourself, at least that makes it crystal clear what it's about.

Edited by noikeee, 19 January 2019 - 19:16.

[sopa]

There is a question worth asking though. How would one rate Stroll's 2016 F3 season? Was there any driver in the field, who could/would have genuinely challenged/beaten Stroll to the championship that year if they didn't have the handicap of not being in the best team/not being #1 driver in the team. How good was Stroll's performance that year?

[Muppetmad]

Stroll generally drove excellently in 2016; in many races he started on pole and simply ran away with it. There were definitely some impressive performances in there. The issue was that, from the very first race of the season, there were also races where his team mates ended up gifting him positions rather than putting up a fight. Given Stroll's undeniably poor race craft in 2015, it struck me at the time that giving Stroll such an easy time with his team mates would do him no favours in preparing him for F1. As it is, Stroll's race craft in F1 has been better than I had originally anticipated.

Edited by Muppetmad, 19 January 2019 - 20:12.

[KWSN - DSM]

If Stroll had no money, but the same racing CV no one would question him getting a chance at F1, he took a podium in his first season, he is not a great driver, but he is a solidly good driver. If he challenge Perez I expect comments about favoritism, if he does not then I expect comments of how he clearly is not worthy.

 

Stroll can not win on this board no matter how he does.

 

I expect Perez to be clearly better than him over the season, I expect Stroll occasionally qualify and race better than Perez.

 

[Maxioos]

KWSN - DSM, on 19 Jan 2019 - 20:32, said:

If Stroll had no money, but the same racing CV no one would question him getting a chance at F1, he took a podium in his first season, he is not a great driver, but he is a solidly good driver. If he challenge Perez I expect comments about favoritism, if he does not then I expect comments of how he clearly is not worthy.
 
Stroll can not win on this board no matter how he does.
 
I expect Perez to be clearly better than him over the season, I expect Stroll occasionally qualify and race better than Perez.
 

From a lot of (new) in team battles I don't expect anything at front, just going to see and experience how it will play out.

For some battles I have a prediction.
-I expect Hamilton to win the in-team battle.
-I expect Max to win the in-team battle.
-I expect Kvyat to win the in-team battle.

But the other 7 teams, I can have slight more expectation one driver over the other (kimi for instance), but not in the certainty as the 3 mentioned.

[BRG]

noriaki, on 19 Jan 2019 - 18:14, said:

You must, logically, think Danny Ricciardo and Mansell were rushed into the sport too I gather it? 

You mean the Daniel Ricciardo with seven seasons of lower formula experience in a wide variety of series, and a F3 championship to his name?

 

Mansell, yes.  I could never understand why or how he got his big break, but he turned out OK.  Things were a bit different back in the 1970s and evidently, Colin Chapman saw something that persuaded him. 

 

Are you going to trawl back to the even more distant past to try to prove your point?  Here's one for you - WDC Mike Hawthorn, who died 60 years ago next Tuesday entered F1 in his second season of racing of any type (no karts back then).

[noriaki]

I responded with those examples because clearly you are denouncing Kimi and Button's worthiness as F1 drivers because of their performances (or the long time they took to win titles) in F1.

 

I do not understand why somehow that does not apply to Ricciardo. 

[potmotr]

noriaki, on 19 Jan 2019 - 18:14, said:

Yes, Nelson Piquet junior indeed is a great example of a driver who was hailed as a great junior talent, who was not at all generally criticized for his privilege nor for his F1 performances. 

 

I often think how Nelson Junior might have got on in F1 in a scenario that was a bit less pressured.

 

ie: No Alonso, no Briatore, and perhaps with his old man stepping back a bit.

 

Boy had talent...

[BRG]

noriaki, on 20 Jan 2019 - 16:50, said:

I responded with those examples because clearly you are denouncing Kimi and Button's worthiness as F1 drivers because of their performances (or the long time they took to win titles) in F1.

 

I do not understand why somehow that does not apply to Ricciardo. 

I think you should go back and re-read the posts that got us to this point.  How you have moved from a discussion of Stroll and Button's pre-F1 experience to a wild and completely fallacious statement that I am "clearly ...denouncing Kimi and Button's worthiness as F1 drivers" is a mystery.  As is the relevance of Ricciardo and his very adequate pre-F1 record to the question..

[noriaki]

BRG, on 20 Jan 2019 - 17:16, said:

I think you should go back and re-read the posts that got us to this point. How you have moved from a discussion of Stroll and Button's pre-F1 experience to a wild and completely fallacious statement that I am "clearly ...denouncing Kimi and Button's worthiness as F1 drivers" is a mystery. As is the relevance of Ricciardo and his very adequate pre-F1 record to the question..

I agree it's got no connection with the discussion. It was you who moved discussion away from junior series by bringing up the argument that Button and Kimi were promoted too early because they failed to win the title. Not me.

Edited by noriaki, 20 January 2019 - 18:07.

[Erwin123]

MortenF1, on 19 Jan 2019 - 17:42, said:

What?? Absolutely not. Stroll will continue to be slow and not up to the task. Perez will trash him.

 

But what if Perez won't 'trash' him?
Anyone dare to guess what the reaction will be then with papa Stroll owning the team?

[Beri]

Erwin123, on 21 Jan 2019 - 07:02, said:

But what if Perez won't 'trash' him?
Anyone dare to guess what the reaction will be then with papa Stroll owning the team?

Papa Stroll also knows that Pere.. ehh.. Slim has got deep pockets. Which in turn will make the whole F1 toy of papa Stroll easier to fund.
As long as both drivers are not outshining one another and both score solid points, both can drive for Force Canada as long as they want. Until a top dog can be signed.

[lustigson]

Eh... Sauber renamed Alfa Romeo?!

[statman]

Hartley signed a contract with Ferrari to be their test and development driver alongside Wehrlein, Fuoco and Rigon.

[potmotr]

statman, on 05 Feb 2019 - 10:21, said:

Hartley signed a contract with Ferrari to be their test and development driver alongside Wehrlein, Fuoco and Rigon.

 

Any prospect of any actual seat time for any of them?

 

And I'm not talking simulators.

Edited by potmotr, 05 February 2019 - 10:49.

[DutchQuicksilver]

potmotr, on 05 Feb 2019 - 10:49, said:

Any prospect of any actual seat time for any of them?

And I'm not talking simulators.

Probably zero to none. Kvyat didn’t drive the car at all in 2018 and Giovinazzi barely either I believe, at least in 2018 anyway.

[Thatfastguy]

Erwin123, on 21 Jan 2019 - 07:02, said:

But what if Perez won't 'trash' him?
Anyone dare to guess what the reaction will be then with papa Stroll owning the team?

Daddy will make sure Lance gets all the good stuff first, don't worry.

[noikeee]

DutchQuicksilver, on 05 Feb 2019 - 12:58, said:

Probably zero to none. Kvyat didn’t drive the car at all in 2018 and Giovinazzi barely either I believe, at least in 2018 anyway.

 

Vergne and Gutierrez were before them and I don't recall them touching the car neither.

[GhostR]

statman, on 05 Feb 2019 - 10:21, said:

Hartley signed a contract with Ferrari to be their test and development driver alongside Wehrlein, Fuoco and Rigon.

 

Ferrari signing ex-Red Bull drivers to their test driver line up is becoming a habit.

[Maxioos]

Thatfastguy, on 05 Feb 2019 - 13:04, said:

Daddy will make sure Lance gets all the good stuff first, don't worry.

 

Such low and disrespectful and full of jealousy comment imo.

 

There is no way he can impress you, or even can get chance. If Perez wins it's because Stroll sucks, if Stroll wins it's because his dad made him win and still Perez is the true winner.

 

[BRG]

Maxioos, on 05 Feb 2019 - 17:46, said:

Such low and disrespectful and full of jealousy comment imo.

 

There is no way he can impress you, or even can get chance. If Perez wins it's because Stroll sucks, if Stroll wins it's because his dad made him win and still Perez is the true winner.

 

Sadly, I expect that to be the general opinion through the year.  Stroll can't win - if he does, he was given unfair help.   Perez can't win, because even if he does, people will say 'It was only Stroll, a blind baboon could beat him'.

 

Truly a Lose-Lose situation for both of them.

[Myrvold]

Maxioos, on 05 Feb 2019 - 17:46, said:

Such low and disrespectful and full of jealousy comment imo.

 

There is no way he can impress you, or even can get chance. If Perez wins it's because Stroll sucks, if Stroll wins it's because his dad made him win and still Perez is the true winner.

 

However, can you realistically expect Stroll to be close to Perez in equal machinery with equal support? Look at the two drivers results compared with their teammates. Now, I subscribe to the notion that such comparisons are flawed. As it's not possible to put two drivers from different years and different teammates directly against each other. The everlasting Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen is a good example.
But Stroll was in general far off Massa. He was beaten in qualifying by Sirotkin, while being better in the races (but with much more experience in F1 cars). He hasn't exactly impressed.

While Perez was beaten by Button, he have matched and beaten Hülkenberg and Ocon. I just cannot see how Stroll will be as fast as Perez in the same cars.

[tghik]

If it wasn't for his starts, Lance would be considered even lower by the public imo, in the races his stagnating pace was appalling. Massa not being the fastest (Alonso as a proof) was still 0.6 sec on average faster than Stroll in quali mode. Perez is a heavy hard rock, too heavy for something spectacular but too hard to break. Lance going against Sirotkin and being so close is another argument that Perez should have no sweat although I expect pumped-up and motivated Stroll to be very close in the beginning

[FordFiesta]

Strange. I mean, even if his overall results kinda look like Palmer-resque, he still doesn't seem to be Palmer-ish. I don't know why that is so.

[Beri]

I agree upon Perez making life for Stroll quite challenging. But I refuse to believe that Stroll is Palmer like or worse.
The kid seriously can race. And if he gets the right equipment, he will prove it.

[Maxioos]

FordFiesta, on 06 Feb 2019 - 11:05, said:

Strange. I mean, even if his overall results kinda look like Palmer-resque, he still doesn't seem to be Palmer-ish. I don't know why that is so.

 

Stroll has a far better pre-F1 career than Palmer had. And he performed far better against his teammates in F1 than Palmer did.

 

And, for most, what people seem to forget, it where learning years. He is still this young but has now 2 years experience. And by that, far better prepared than drivers same age or older that make debut rookie season coming year. The goal is, when being 23 and having 5 F1 years experience he will be stable F1 driver. And, i see no reason why that couldn't happen and why that's a wrong approach. The big teams place their drivers with small teams to learn and get experience, but, unlike those drivers, Stroll could do it him selves and didn't had to sign a very dependent contract without guarantees (see Wehrlein/Ocon/VanDoorne, etc.).

[HeadFirst]

Seems to be some disdain for the length of time it took Kimi to be WDC, however it's hard to argue with his rise to F1 .....  a total of 23 races in cars of any kind.

[BRG]

HeadFirst, on 07 Feb 2019 - 00:37, said:

Seems to be some disdain for the length of time it took Kimi to be WDC, however it's hard to argue with his rise to F1 .....  a total of 23 races in cars of any kind.

Isn't that WHY it took him so long?  Because he had to do so much learning in F1; the very learning that he should have been doing in F3 and F3000 before he graduated to F1.  Same thing for Button.

 

Whereas Hamilton arrived fully formed and gave Alonso a headache straight off the blocks.

[noikeee]

BRG, on 07 Feb 2019 - 20:39, said:

Isn't that WHY it took him so long?  Because he had to do so much learning in F1; the very learning that he should have been doing in F3 and F3000 before he graduated to F1.  Same thing for Button.

 

Whereas Hamilton arrived fully formed and gave Alonso a headache straight off the blocks.

 

He drove better before he became champion. He was at his peak in 2005 not 2007. That was his 5th season in F1, hardly horrendously late. Also it's not like he wasted a seat, was uncompetitive or a danger in the previous 4 seasons so this whole argument remains rather bizarre.

[Bleu]

The amount of races is more down to the fact that Kimi was driving one race per weekend series.

 

Max Verstappen had 48 races before his F1 debut, consisting of

4x3 Florida Series weekends (12)

11x3 European F3 weekends (33)

Zandvoort (1)

Macau qualifying race + Grand Prix (2)

[Beri]

noikeee, on 07 Feb 2019 - 22:02, said:

He drove better before he became champion. He was at his peak in 2005 not 2007. That was his 5th season in F1, hardly horrendously late. Also it's not like he wasted a seat, was uncompetitive or a danger in the previous 4 seasons so this whole argument remains rather bizarre.

Agreed. He was the grids fastest driver in his day at Woking. His bad luck was appaling at times. But there was no one as fast as Raikkonen from '03 onwards till his first Ferrari days. Only bad luck, a failed MP4-18 and an astonishing Ferrari car made it tough for Raikkonen. He was really up to speed after his second season and should have been at least a triple world champion.

[Nathan]

BRG, on 07 Feb 2019 - 20:39, said:

Isn't that WHY it took him so long?  Because he had to do so much learning in F1; the very learning that he should have been doing in F3 and F3000 before he graduated to F1.  Same thing for Button.

 

Whereas Hamilton arrived fully formed and gave Alonso a headache straight off the blocks.

 

Hamilton walked into a WC calibre car, Raikkonen walked into Ferrari domination and *on merit*, Button never had a WC calibre car.  Yes, yes the Brawn, but that was something of an anomaly.  It wasn't until he went to McLaren that he had any legitimate reason to go into a season thinking he could be a legit title contender.  In saying that, as far as rookie seasons go I do agree Hamilton was a step above both.