22 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Reading todays media with a story about Classic Cars containing asbestos.

Yet for the most part a non story but again a big brother one too.

 

It seems these cars have  the temerity to have asbestos in brake and clutch linings as well as gaskets.

And it shows an 'Eleanor' clone Mustang. Which originally undoubtedly would have had said materials fitted from new. Though in the case of the car pictured I doubt very much if it still did as all these replacement components have been asbestos free for 20 years.

 

I feel this yet again Big brother making life hard for enthusiasts as it seems it is up too the owners to prove the cars do not have it, at reputedly $10k costs.

 

While I do not condone asbestos at all it was a very stable material for use in all these components. And I have not heard of many mechanics who have had problems working with it. One I know has cancer, not the asbestos related version. That probably because he smoked 40 a day for 50 years!

 

And ofcourse all Australian cars were made with this material as well. Evidently they pinged a 78 Holden from New Zealand  with it. Very maybe in brake materials.

I have two 70s classics here that will have the same in brake material.

So what it seems they are doing is making retrospective rules!

 

And,, the carbon material used in motorsport brake linings  is I feel far worse than asbestos for the health as well,,,F1 cars use carbon rotors as well. The incar cameras at times show a cloud of material hazing out of the front wheels on heavy stops.

 

I suggest people here in Oz lobby their local MP to tell the govt to grow up. If nothing else on employment grounds as the Classic car moverment creates quite a lot of income for the motortrade. You know, headlines. '5000 people Australia wide will become unemployed as these cars are banned'

[Ray Bell]

The current fuss is about cars being imported, Lee...

Those EJ Holdens which people have put back on the road with original brake and clutch linings are totally unaffected. Never mind that there's always going to be ten of them for every import.

The department concerned (Customs? Border Security?) got caught out when it was discovered that a whole bunch of Great Wall vehicles had come in from China with asbestos in their head gaskets. A massive recall took place, I understand.

The law has been in place for a while but they didn't appreciate the extent of use of asbestos, but now they're embarrassed and going mad about it.

The Mustangs about which I've seen information were thoroughly inspected. The inspection, as with anything to do with asbestos, has to take place in strict conditions by people with protective clothing on and lots of Ts crossed and Is dotted. This is costing a fortune.

They didn't stop with brakes and clutches. They scraped sound deadening, ripped out hoodlinings and generally wreaked havoc with the cars, the cost was $16,000 and the owner also had a huge list of parts he had to replace.

In the meantime we have thousands of acres of rooftops in Australia made from asbestos-reinforced cement sheeting, on factories and homes and even covering dams in high evaporation areas. This material, when exposed to weather over the decades, breaks down and the asbestos fibres blow free in the wind.

Some suburban fencing is also made from it, and when this goes unpainted it is subject to the same problem. 'Encapsulated' by painting with an appropriate sealing paint it's rendered safe.

As safe as the stuff in the sound deadening that will be removed from expensive cars being imported because of the inappropriate application of these long-standing rules.

[Lee Nicolle]

I can understand it with new vehicles. China is rife with asbestos unlike the rest of the world.

But destroying an imported older car because of what it might have is just dumb and simply making statistics. And originally those cars all had asbestos in clutch plates and brake linings, as did all vehicles over about 25 y/o.

That was the basis of the thread.

And the law normally does not allow any retrospective changes. So they are actually [again] exceeding their authority.

[Ray Bell]

Nobody has made any retrospective changes...

They are saying that no cars imported into Australia today may contain asbestos. That the cars might be 80 years old is not a part of the equation as they didn't come to Australia 80 years ago.





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Edited by Ray Bell, 27 November 2017 - 03:57.

[Lee Nicolle]

I have just lobbied my local federal MP. I got the not interested style of deal, and oh but it is dangerous!

Also he did the same as I have just done,, gone through the internet news and it has disapeared.  

I suspect a Govt department or two have been extremely embarrassed about the article.

And as Ray has pointed out there is acres of asbestos roofing Oz wide. in fact in the last fortnight a local Gym was closed down for a fortinght because they pressure cleaned the roof and a big media scare. Though fact, asbestos is everywhere and will not go away for a long time.

As has been in the media it is in hospitals, Govt buildings, private commerce buildings and tens of thousands of homes.

 

I have no problem with banning it as it can be dangerous, just not retrospectively.  though the risk is far less than made out. As a lot of people in the motortrade will attest who have worked with it for  over a 100 years.

 

And as for car insulation? I have never seen it in cars ever except for aluminium asbestos heat sheilds on the floor to insulate exhaust heat. 

I presume what is on most cars with catalytic cverters is an 'substitute' asbestos

[Catalina Park]

The underfelt fitted to most Australian made cars contains hessian which often comes from hessian bags that carried asbestos.
So it is quite common for old underfelt to show asbestos fibres.

Should new cars be allowed into Australia with asbestos? No.
Should used cars be allowed into Australia with asbestos? I would say no too.

If you allow one 66 Mustang you will also allow a dozen used 2009 Chinese cars.

I don't think this a topic for the nostalgia forum unless you are feeling nostalgic about cancer.

Edited by Catalina Park, 27 November 2017 - 09:16.

[Robin Fairservice]

By the way, there is more than form of Asbestos; one is more dangerous than the others, but I can't remember the names.  Cristolite is the most common.  In the western states, Vermiculite, a common loose insulation in ceilings, contains enough Asbestos to be rated as a hazardous material.

[RS250]

Thorny subject, Asbestos. Having some experience of working with it, it really only becomes an issue when the material becomes airborne. If you keep it wet, or sealed you should be ok.
Carbon brakes fill me with dread though - the clouds are bad enough when drivers brake hard, but the massive cloud of highly toxic dust that the wheel hammers generate in a very confined pit area can't be good for anybody in the vicinity.

[Glengavel]

By the way, there is more than form of Asbestos; one is more dangerous than the others, but I can't remember the names.  Cristolite is the most common.  In the western states, Vermiculite, a common loose insulation in ceilings, contains enough Asbestos to be rated as a hazardous material.

 

IIRC crocidolite is dangerous; a fellow student had, as a project, investigating the properties of fibres in a magnetic field. His professor had the idea that you could differentiate between two different types (one was classified as dangerous, one wasn't) because one form was susceptible to magnetic fields and one wasn't. After a year of squinting through a microscope and trying to determine angles of alignment, said student was enormously pissed off when they classified both types as dangerous and the research was abandoned.

[Lee Nicolle]

The underfelt fitted to most Australian made cars contains hessian which often comes from hessian bags that carried asbestos.
So it is quite common for old underfelt to show asbestos fibres.

Should new cars be allowed into Australia with asbestos? No.
Should used cars be allowed into Australia with asbestos? I would say no too.

If you allow one 66 Mustang you will also allow a dozen used 2009 Chinese cars.

I don't think this a topic for the nostalgia forum unless you are feeling nostalgic about cancer.

I very much doubt that hessian insulation was made from used  hessian bags. One is a woven material and one  long strands glued to a bitumenous back.

Though Ford have always used a straight bitumen style stuff glued straight to the floor. GM used the above material.

As for used Chinese cars? Far too hard to bring them in and since they have no value not worth it. That and the rules are far different for cars over 25 y/o

[Cavalier53]

From Europe:

I remember frequently grinding asbestos brake pads between practice sessions with sandpaper.

 

Fortunately, so far no related health issues as yet - contrary to so many workers at the nearby asbestos plant in.... a nearby local factory. Many small country roads in the area are contaminated with asbestos used at the time, all to be carefully decontaminated.

 

Google for "Goor" if you like to know the more about the issue - or the straightforward translation of goor in English .

 

Jan.

[ed holly]

Today there was a radio interview about some Classic Maserati's that have been denied entry into Australia on a tour,  including 2 of them were returning after having restoration work done overseas. 

 

It is very much worth listening to the interview that runs for approx 4 minutes.and can be found at

 

http://www.abc.net.a...r-force/9579678

 

As a youngster my Dad had a taxi in Sydney. From a young age into my late teens I helped him service it and in the days of drum brakes on Holdens from FX to HR, although I was too young when the FX was around, it was my Saturday afternoon chore to pull the wheels off and blow all that dust out of the shoes and the drums. There were clouds of it and touch wood it has had no effect over the next 60 years. 

 

Talking to brake specialists years ago their understanding of brake and clutch etc asbestos is that it is not like the stuff mined at Wittenoom - that stuff is very bad and I believe is the stuff used in Fibro and maybe ship lagging which took a mate of mine at a very young age when he worked at Garden Island.

 

It does affect us in Historic Racing - how many cars have we seen in the last 12 years competing from overseas - my guess is a couple of hundred - if this obstacle stays we will never get the pleasure of that again as overseas owners will be very wary of facing similar and as yet apparently unresolved problems that these Maserati owners do. And not to mention the apprehension of those organizing committees bringing the cars here.

Edited by ed holly, 23 March 2018 - 08:52.

[Ray Bell]

I can't see that there would be much asbestos in competition cars other than:

Brake pads - regularly replaced and unlikely to have asbestos these days.

Clutch plate - similar situation.

Exhaust lagging - readily removed and replaced.

If there is any in some of the gaskets, I'm sure that could be fixed too. Cars which are in use such as these are torn down regularly and it's a routine matter to replace such parts.

Where it might matter is if, for instance, Mercedes-Benz might want to display a 300SLR at motor shows and they wouldn't be tearing them down so often, and they would have asbestos in the places mentioned.

[Charlieman]

Where it might matter is if, for instance, Mercedes-Benz might want to display a 300SLR at motor shows and they wouldn't be tearing them down so often, and they would have asbestos in the places mentioned.

Stable solid asbestos -- the stuff found in shed roofs or the bath panel in my home -- is almost harmless. It's only when you drill it or break it up that a hazard is created. I've worked in public buildings where the policy was to leave asbestos panels alone until somebody needed access, at which time specialists would come in to remove all in the vicinity. 

 

So in the case of a show car -- not a runner -- leave it alone. Maybe give exposed asbestos wool (exhaust insulation) a lacquer coat but that may exacerbate exposure.

[Ray Bell]

That's not the issue, Charlieman...

It's illegal to allow any asbestos to enter the country as part of a car. No matter what kind of asbestos and no matter what part of a car.

As for roofing materials being safe if undisturbed, I beg to differ. The cement breaks down over time in the weather and asbestos can be freed into the air. Then it's dangerous.

[Cavalier53]

As said before: the dust from asbestos is a serious health hazard, but untouched asbestos structures do not present any hazard - many of us might drink potable water transported in asbestos-cement pipelines. Those risks have been established as negligible: http://dwi.defra.gov...ement pipes.pdf
Unfortunately, asbestos particles suspended in air are a serious health threat - workers and managers of our local Eternit company are still suffering badly.

Just lets not confuse anyuse of asbestos with its' removal issues - and the use in brakes and coupling liners, unfortunately

[D-Type]

I fully appreciate the health risks from working with asbestos.  What I fail to understand is why motor mechanics working with asbestos dust in brake drums and clutch linings don't seem to have a higher incidence of asbestosis compared to the general public.

[Lee Nicolle]

I can't see that there would be much asbestos in competition cars other than:

Brake pads - regularly replaced and unlikely to have asbestos these days.

Clutch plate - similar situation.

Exhaust lagging - readily removed and replaced.

If there is any in some of the gaskets, I'm sure that could be fixed too. Cars which are in use such as these are torn down regularly and it's a routine matter to replace such parts.

Where it might matter is if, for instance, Mercedes-Benz might want to display a 300SLR at motor shows and they wouldn't be tearing them down so often, and they would have asbestos in the places mentioned.

This is absolutely what I said. A 50 y/o rebuilt Mustang would have had any potential asbestos replaced at the very least WHEN the car was rebuilt. And probably decades before!

[Lee Nicolle]

I fully appreciate the health risks from working with asbestos.  What I fail to understand is why motor mechanics working with asbestos dust in brake drums and clutch linings don't seem to have a higher incidence of asbestosis compared to the general public.

As someone who has worked on cars all their life I too am well at risk. And like everyone my age in the trade I do not know anyone anyone suffering asbestosis.

And I too have used carbon brake pads in motorsport and I feel sure I have made clouds of dust that was potentially dangerous. And lots of DS11 too which I am told has asbestos? 

I used too have brake pads rebonded with sheet DS11 material which is/ was common in use for brake presses. Though the bonded pads never where as good as buying new ones. Why?  Maybe that material had asbestos 'replacement'

I also used DP11 which worked just as well BUT one Mallala meeting and the pads were crumbling. Would not take the heat so near certain asbestos free.

[Lee Nicolle]

That's not the issue, Charlieman...

It's illegal to allow any asbestos to enter the country as part of a car. No matter what kind of asbestos and no matter what part of a car.

As for roofing materials being safe if undisturbed, I beg to differ. The cement breaks down over time in the weather and asbestos can be freed into the air. Then it's dangerous.

Chinese engines with asbestos in head gaskets. Rail signal boxes insulated with asbestos. Lagging with asbestos. This in the last couple of years.

The Chinese clearly do not understand.

[2F-001]

I fully appreciate the health risks from working with asbestos.  What I fail to understand is why motor mechanics working with asbestos dust in brake drums and clutch linings don't seem to have a higher incidence of asbestosis compared to the general public.

 

 

The various materials generally lumped under the title of asbestos are rather different, with different properties and risks. Whilst it is, of course, a serious subject about which nobody would want to take undue risks, there has been a lucrative handling-and-disposal industry built up, based somewhat on the fear engendered by inaccurate - or just lazy and incomplete - reporting (and, I don’t doubt, uninformed politicians too). The blanket handling procedures that have been mandated seem to be altogether less appropriate for some types than for others.

Edited by 2F-001, 24 March 2018 - 08:18.

[Charlieman]

Chinese engines with asbestos in head gaskets. Rail signal boxes insulated with asbestos. Lagging with asbestos. This in the last couple of years.

The Chinese clearly do not understand.

I accept the point made by Lee and Ray Bell that asbestos import restrictions -- and violations by some importers -- are matters taken seriously in Australia. Quite rightly too. There's a strong likelihood that new products containing asbestos are illegally imported into other countries. That doesn't change my opinion that risk assessments of asbestos in old machinery is more appropriate than a blanket ban.

 

Unfortunately, asbestos particles suspended in air are a serious health threat - workers and managers of our local Eternit company are still suffering badly.

Just lets not confuse anyuse of asbestos with its' removal issues - and the use in brakes and coupling liners, unfortunately

 

UK experience in towns like Rochdale where asbestos was made or in shipyard towns is that families were also exposed -- children handling asbestos wool that fell off delivery lorries or wives washing overalls. Sometimes brief contact causes asbestosis, for other victims it took long term exposure. Several academic studies have examined the risk to vehicle mechanics and thankfully none or little has been found:

https://academic.oup...48/4/309/145258

[Duc-Man]

Jaysis Christ!

What a pile of BS!

I know asbestos can put someones health in danger. Under certain circumstances, yes.

A co-worker of mine was a construction worker when Eternit still contained asbestos, dealing with the stuff for years on almost daily basis, and he was a smoker too, and he got old enough to retire.

People do NOT die when they get in contact with the stuff once.

To me it seems some people create here an issue where there is non.

 

Paranoia, paranoia, shalalalala!