1244 replies to this topic

[LucaP]

I think the new Giulia model will be next

[jr80]

I wonder if the wtcc move to tcr will have big implications for btcc? With the cost of a wtcc entry falling to roughly btcc costs and at least one former btcc driver saying the tcr laps quicker than a ngtc on the same track will we see a push to tcr rules in the UK.

[PayasYouRace]

Who said the TCR lapped faster? I thought they were pretty slow.

There’s going to be a British TCR championship next year IIRC. It would have a lot of work to do to overhaul the BTCC in popularity. But the TCR regulations are another matter entirely. I’m not sure the BTCC wants to get into another international specification. That inevitably ends in rising costs.

[Kraken]

PayasYouRace, on 24 Dec 2017 - 15:07, said:

Who said the TCR lapped faster? I thought they were pretty slow.

There’s going to be a British TCR championship next year IIRC. It would have a lot of work to do to overhaul the BTCC in popularity. But the TCR regulations are another matter entirely. I’m not sure the BTCC wants to get into another international specification. That inevitably ends in rising costs.

 

Josh Files said on TenTenths that the TCR cars are as fast if not slightly faster than the NGTC BTCC cars. Would seem accurate given the relative weights and power and if anyone should know it should be him.

Don't see how the BTCC adopting TCR regs would lead to higher costs seeing that a TCR car is at least half the price of a BTCC one, a lot less to run and is also eligible to run in multiple series other than just TCR.

From what people are saying the British TCR series is struggling to attract drivers although it has a lot of teams interested.

Edited by Kraken, 24 December 2017 - 21:23.

[PayasYouRace]

TCR might be lower cost now, but international level formulae always end up with inflating costs, especially as TCR is now effectively at world championship level. Super Touring was low cost too, initially.

I’m just sceptical about the whole TCR thing going into the future, especially when the NGTC has been such a huge success for BTCC.

[Kraken]

PayasYouRace, on 24 Dec 2017 - 21:38, said:

TCR might be lower cost now, but international level formulae always end up with inflating costs, especially as TCR is now effectively at world championship level. Super Touring was low cost too, initially.

I’m just sceptical about the whole TCR thing going into the future, especially when the NGTC has been such a huge success for BTCC.

TCR costs would have to triple to match the costs of building and running an NGTC car. The NGTC car would still only be able to run in BTCC and nothing else as well. That's a massive increase in price that I just can't see happening given that TCR doesn't allow manufacturers to be directly involved.

NGTC can be seen as a success on some levels and a failure on others. The cars are slow for the amount of money they cost, complex to setup and many drivers who are far better than those in the series can't afford to join.

[PayasYouRace]

It would not surprise me for TCR costs to triple or more as it becomes an established international formula. How long before manufacturers begin to back door their way into the WTCR, or simply get the rules changed to allow them in?

The NGTC formula is still bringing in full fields, so the cost isn’t prohibitive. How many teams are going to want to run in multiple series? Very few did it when BTCC and WTCC both ran S2000 cars, and they were usually manufacturer entries.

[Fondmetal]

Modern BTCC is a joke. Hot Hatches resembles the kind of cars you see in Max Power with boy racers for its appeal.

Aussie V8 is definitely much better so too is DTM.

[PayasYouRace]

DTM isn’t touring car racing. It’s a silhouette formula playground for German car manufacturers.

Aussie Supercars is good though, but it doesn’t really fit in with the typical car on UK roads. That’s something BTCC does do well.

[Silverstone96]

Watching the season review this morning on itv this morning and it hit me how over the course of a season there is so little actual racing at the front for the lead, the races all have a similar pattern of leader streaks off into distance and carnage behind.

Any racing for the lead is dictated by the success ballast so it’s usually like taking candy from a baby for the lighter car, shame they can’t do away with that so there would be a some real genuine battles at the front.

The ballast system almost ensures that every one gets a turn at winning to guarantee the grand finale.

[JHSingo]

Kraken, on 25 Dec 2017 - 09:01, said:

many drivers who are far better than those in the series can't afford to join.

 

That's hardly new, is it? It's been the case in every specification of car the BTCC has used in the recent past, whether it's Super Touring, BTC, S2000 or NGTC. It's always been too expensive for some drivers.

 

But, judging by the fact that BTCC has had a capacity grid of more than 30 cars for several years now (never was the case in any of the other eras I mentioned) I'd say they were doing alright.

 

Fondmetal, on 25 Dec 2017 - 22:24, said:

Modern BTCC is a joke. Hot Hatches resembles the kind of cars you see in Max Power with boy racers for its appeal.

Aussie V8 is definitely much better so too is DTM.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but this "grass is greener" attitude does wind me up.

 

DTM is better? Really? Mercedes is leaving after next year, meaning the series future is very uncertain. The racing is a joke - they need DRS to help with overtaking in what is supposed to be touring car racing, for goodness sake. There's fewer cars on the grid, and nowhere near the variety you'll see on a BTCC grid.

 

Same deal for Supercars. That's a series that has massive problems in its immediate future, with the uncertainty over future regulations. Due to the collapse of the car industry in Australia, it will change from how it has been - and maybe not for the better. The much loved V8s are going. There's only two manufacturers present, Holden and Nissan - the latter which may be leaving in the very near future. What's more, the series is on pay TV in Australia. Imagine how long the BTCC would survive if it chased TV money, and went to Sky or BT? Not very long, is my guess.

Both have good qualities, but to pretend that they are far superior to the BTCC is laughable, frankly. I wish more people in the UK would recognise how good the BTCC is now, rather than having an outdated, myopic view that "hurdur, it's not as good as in the 90s".

[Kraken]

Capacity grids of drivers and capacity grids of quality drivers are two very different things. Most of the drivers don't even get a look in on the coverage and if the grids were reduced to 25 it would make no difference (other than the income to the series) apart from maybe reducing the number of stoppages.

BTCC is good entertainment and they make no bones about being an entertainment series. Is it a good racing series? No, IMO, as it's too artificial, too slow and too spec.

[V8 Fireworks]

Kraken, on 27 Dec 2017 - 15:05, said:

BTCC is good entertainment and they make no bones about being an entertainment series. Is it a good racing series? No, IMO, as it's too artificial, too slow and too spec.

 

Come back from driving one and tell me it's too slow. 

 

TCR is less spec but BOP'ed, so is that better?

 

While Supercars is far more spec than BTCC, the cars are all interchangeable apart from riveted and bolted-on external panels.

[Sterzo]

Silverstone96, on 20 Dec 2017 - 14:35, said:

hard to get excited about the alfa entry with what will essentially be an 8 year old car - I'm surprised the FIAT group even allowed it.

 

It's a current model, they're selling them, there's no replacement imminent, and crucially it's the right size for the BTCC. The performance depends far more on development than on the base model anyway.

[V8 Fireworks]

Sterzo, on 27 Dec 2017 - 16:41, said:

It's a current model, they're selling them, there's no replacement imminent, and crucially it's the right size for the BTCC. The performance depends far more on development than on the base model anyway.

 

Surely if the Levorg is not too long for NGTC specs, then the Alfa Romeo Giulia would also be not too long?  Vauxhall Insignia, Audi A4 and Volkwagen CCs have also been raced, without being declared too large to meet the regulations.

 

In fact the Giulia is 30mm shorter than the Levorg!

 

I don't understand why you wouldn't the race the Giulia (as a RWD of course) given how competitive the RWD Levorgs have been.  The standard engine of the Giulia is even a 2.0L petrol turbo (should the entrants not want to use the Swindon TOCA engine) -- the Giulia could not be a more perfect fit for BTCC and NGTC. 

 

I don't understand why they are not using the Giulia, it makes no sense!?

 

I just think that while BTCC still allows RWD cars, as Alfitsis they should be making use of this provision.  It's not like TCR, where they is no choice but to use Giulietta due to FWD-only regulation. Especially since Alfitsis were longing for so long for the return of RWD machines from their loved brand. They have a chance to choose the race a RWD Alfa in the prestigious BTCC, but they are building a FWD instead -- I don't get it.

 

   

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 December 2017 - 16:59.

[LucaP]

Please, porn is not allowed here

[Sterzo]

V8 Fireworks, on 27 Dec 2017 - 16:46, said:

I don't understand why they are not using the Giulia, it makes no sense!?

Size and weight, maybe? We're talking Knockhill and Brands Indy, not Le Mans. Rivals are Mercedes A class, BMW 1 series etc.

[V8 Fireworks]

Sterzo, on 27 Dec 2017 - 17:01, said:

Size and weight, maybe? We're talking Knockhill and Brands Indy, not Le Mans. Rivals are Mercedes A class, BMW 1 series etc.

 

Yet the Subaru Levorg won the championship.    

 

As a Honda fanatic, I am certainly not against front-wheel-drive.  I will defend it to the hilt if people claim the new Civic Type R is garbage "because FWD" for instance. 

 

But I just follow these words:

Tiff Nedeell: However much you try with FWD, it's always more of a compromise.  This rear-wheel-drive BMW super tourer is beautifully balanced. https://youtu.be/cEfiwyiV8hs?t=4m31s

 

Matt Neal always mentions how a fast FWD touring car is usually setup to be loose in the rear which is not necessarily reassuring to drive, but it has to be done because that's the fastest way.

 

I don't understand why you'd "sign up" for making a racing car that will be spooky to drive, when you have the option to use a RWD base car instead. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 December 2017 - 17:26.

[JHSingo]

Kraken, on 27 Dec 2017 - 15:05, said:

Capacity grids of drivers and capacity grids of quality drivers are two very different things. Most of the drivers don't even get a look in on the coverage and if the grids were reduced to 25 it would make no difference (other than the income to the series) apart from maybe reducing the number of stoppages.

BTCC is good entertainment and they make no bones about being an entertainment series. Is it a good racing series? No, IMO, as it's too artificial, too slow and too spec.

 

I'd argue that this year's grid was one of the best in quite a while. The amount of young talent and new names coming through and challenging at the front, alongside the established stars of the series, is probably at the highest it has ever been at. I remember, not that many years ago, that guys like Plato or Neal would be able to come through the pack and finish on or near the podium, even after starting at the back. That's not the case now - there's far fewer grid fillers.

 

And let's not forget, even in a series like DTM, there's been quite a few fairly useless drivers there in recent years.

 

I've addressed the speed thing in F1 topics. To me, it doesn't matter how fast the cars are (or not) if the racing's sh*t, like it has largely been in F1 this year. DTM too, like I say. The cars are very quick, but is the racing better than in the BTCC? Absolutely not. And at least in the BTCC you don't have to worry about manufacturers essentially deciding the outcome through team orders. NGTCs are still the fastest cars the series has had in lap times, and any faster and they'd have to start butchering classic old venues like Oulton Park etc for safety measures.

 

Not every BTCC race is a classic, some are too chaotic, but at its best there's no other four wheel series that comes close for the amount of close racing and wheel-to-wheel action that you get in the BTCC, imo.

Edited by JHSingo, 27 December 2017 - 17:18.

[BRG]

Kraken, on 27 Dec 2017 - 15:05, said:

Capacity grids of drivers and capacity grids of quality drivers are two very different things.

Where is this mythical series with a full grid entirely of quality drivers?  Not F1, F2 GP3, F3, F4, Indycar, DTM, Supercar, TCR, WEC etc etc.

 

BTCC isn't perfect, far from it, but it works, probably better than any other race series around.

[Vielleicht]

BRG, on 27 Dec 2017 - 19:39, said:

Where is this mythical series with a full grid entirely of quality drivers?  Not F1, F2 GP3, F3, F4, Indycar, DTM, Supercar, TCR, WEC etc etc.

 

BTCC isn't perfect, far from it, but it works, probably better than any other race series around.

Formula E

[Disgrace]

There's little wrong with the BTCC grid. Six champions and in Ingram, Goff and Jackson there's at least three further potential champions. Plus multiple race winners who in the right car/team could show similar credentials.

[Silverstone96]

V8 Fireworks, on 27 Dec 2017 - 16:46, said:

Surely if the Levorg is not too long for NGTC specs, then the Alfa Romeo Giulia would also be not too long? Vauxhall Insignia, Audi A4 and Volkwagen CCs have also been raced, without being declared too large to meet the regulations.

In fact the Giulia is 30mm shorter than the Levorg!

I don't understand why you wouldn't the race the Giulia (as a RWD of course) given how competitive the RWD Levorgs have been. The standard engine of the Giulia is even a 2.0L petrol turbo (should the entrants not want to use the Swindon TOCA engine) -- the Giulia could not be a more perfect fit for BTCC and NGTC.

I don't understand why they are not using the Giulia, it makes no sense!?

I just think that while BTCC still allows RWD cars, as Alfitsis they should be making use of this provision. It's not like TCR, where they is no choice but to use Giulietta due to FWD-only regulation. Especially since Alfitsis were longing for so long for the return of RWD machines from their loved brand. They have a chance to choose the race a RWD Alfa in the prestigious BTCC, but they are building a FWD instead -- I don't get it.

It’s not really a factory entry...that’s the pinch of salt it should be taken with.

[Fastcake]

That the BTCC works, and more than works thrives, is more than enough to cheer about.

 

I'm rather pessimistic about the motorsport world at the moment. There is barely a series out there that isn't struggling for a future, losing cars, manufacturers and funding, including the aforementioned "superior" V8 Supercars and DTM. And far too many have tiny crowds, non-existent viewing figures and are tucked away on obscure channels with zero promotion. We've lost dozens of championships in the last decade, and not just the dregs like Auto GP either. Motorsport is also intrinsically linked to the motor industry, which is going through a massive period of change at the moment.

 

In this environment it is foolish to suggest any major changes, particularly to an unproven set of rules such as TCR. I don't think the BTCC is perfect - I would argue the performance balancing is too close to random - but I know it will still be here entertaining us in five years time, and that's all that matters to me.

[king_crud]

V8 Fireworks, on 27 Dec 2017 - 16:46, said:

Why is Tarquini about to drive on the grass?

[PayasYouRace]

king_crud, on 28 Dec 2017 - 10:08, said:

Why is Tarquini about to drive on the grass?

Because that’s the inevitable result of Tarquini in an Alfa touring car. #Knockhill1994

[midgrid]

Jake Hill will remain with Team HARD for 2018.

[midgrid]

BTC Norlin will replace its Chevrolet Cruzes with ex-Dynamics Honda Civic Type Rs.

[Kraken]

BRG, on 27 Dec 2017 - 19:39, said:

Where is this mythical series with a full grid entirely of quality drivers?  Not F1, F2 GP3, F3, F4, Indycar, DTM, Supercar, TCR, WEC etc etc.

 

BTCC isn't perfect, far from it, but it works, probably better than any other race series around.

Never said there was. The original point I was responding to basically said BTCC was best because it had a full grid. The size of the grid is no indication of quality. 

 

Fastcake, on 27 Dec 2017 - 22:12, said:

That the BTCC works, and more than works thrives, is more than enough to cheer about.

 

I'm rather pessimistic about the motorsport world at the moment. There is barely a series out there that isn't struggling for a future, losing cars, manufacturers and funding, including the aforementioned "superior" V8 Supercars and DTM. And far too many have tiny crowds, non-existent viewing figures and are tucked away on obscure channels with zero promotion. We've lost dozens of championships in the last decade, and not just the dregs like Auto GP either. Motorsport is also intrinsically linked to the motor industry, which is going through a massive period of change at the moment.

 

In this environment it is foolish to suggest any major changes, particularly to an unproven set of rules such as TCR. I don't think the BTCC is perfect - I would argue the performance balancing is too close to random - but I know it will still be here entertaining us in five years time, and that's all that matters to me.

I'd dispute the statement that the TCR rules are unproven. TCR is a massive success story against the backdrop you mention. The cars are a fraction of the price of the BTCC ones, can race in multiple series and are just as fast (or slow depending on your viewpoint).

Personally I'm not so pessimistic about motorsport in general. I just seeing it going back to it's root of private stables and individuals rather than the corporate monsters some series became. No bad thing in my book.

[JHSingo]

midgrid, on 28 Dec 2017 - 17:18, said:

Jake Hill will remain with Team HARD for 2018.

 

Jake is one of those young drivers I hold in high regard. He had some strong performances last season, and could have had even better results if not for some bad luck. I'd say it's only a matter of time before he starts challenging for podiums and wins.

 

midgrid, on 03 Jan 2018 - 08:37, said:

BTC Norlin will replace its Chevrolet Cruzes with ex-Dynamics Honda Civic Type Rs.

 

Interesting - are Dynamics changing cars yet again then? It seems like every couple of years they're changing to a different model. Maybe after Subaru's success, they'll bring back their estate as well?

[pacificquay]

JHSingo, on 03 Jan 2018 - 13:12, said:

Jake is one of those young drivers I hold in high regard. He had some strong performances last season, and could have had even better results if not for some bad luck. I'd say it's only a matter of time before he starts challenging for podiums and wins.

 

 

Interesting - are Dynamics changing cars yet again then? It seems like every couple of years they're changing to a different model. Maybe after Subaru's success, they'll bring back their estate as well?

 

Dynamics will be running the new shape Civic as the one they had last year is no longer the current car on sale.

[midgrid]

Regular GT driver and occasional BTCC substitute Michael Caine will drive the fourth Team HARD VW CC, alongside Bobby Thompson, Mike Bushell and Jake Hill.  Michael Epps and Will Burns will be looking for new drives.

[midgrid]

Interesting story.  Carlin seriously considered entering the BTCC this season and attempted to secure a semi-works deal with Alfa Romeo, but it didn't come to fruition.  Carlin is supported financially by Grahame Chilton, father of Tom (and Max).

[F1matt]

midgrid, on 04 Jan 2018 - 10:46, said:

Interesting story.  Carlin seriously considered entering the BTCC this season and attempted to secure a semi-works deal with Alfa Romeo, but it didn't come to fruition.  Carlin is supported financially by Grahame Chilton, father of Tom (and Max).

 

 

This would have been a great entry, proven team in every level of Motorsport it enters with a very popular driver and an emotional brand, this would have generated a lot of publicity for the series. Maybe next year!

[Kraken]

F1matt, on 04 Jan 2018 - 18:19, said:

This would have been a great entry, proven team in every level of Motorsport it enters with a very popular driver and an emotional brand, this would have generated a lot of publicity for the series. Maybe next year!

 

Publicity with who though? To Joe Public Carlin and Chilton are unknown and in motorsport everyone is well aware of them.

[midgrid]

AmD retain Ollie Jackson for 2018, but British F4 racer Sam Smelt replaces Ant Whorton-Eales.

[midgrid]

midgrid, on 03 Jan 2018 - 08:37, said:

BTC Norlin will replace its Chevrolet Cruzes with ex-Dynamics Honda Civic Type Rs.

Chris Smiley will return, but Dave Newsham has announced his retirement.

[midgrid]

Jack Goff will also remain at Eurotech.

[midgrid]

WSR has announced an unchanged line-up of Colin Turkington, Rob Collard and Andrew Jordan.

[Rinehart]

PayasYouRace, on 25 Dec 2017 - 22:29, said:

DTM isn’t touring car racing. It’s a silhouette formula playground for German car manufacturers.

Aussie Supercars is good though, but it doesn’t really fit in with the typical car on UK roads. That’s something BTCC does do well.

I don't think the difference between BTCC and V8's comes down to Hatchbacks v Saloons, that's just the aesthetic difference.

It's the 350bhp and 250kph v 650bhp and 300kph figures that's the noticeable part...!!!

The BTCC cars are simply too slow and underpowered to be taken seriously. They produce entertaining bumper-car racing. But the Aussie Supercars are high level motorsport beasts that produce proper, quality racing. Pound for pound the best racing series in the world, IMO. 

Edited by Rinehart, 10 January 2018 - 11:39.

[JHSingo]

Rinehart, on 10 Jan 2018 - 11:39, said:

I don't think the difference between BTCC and V8's comes down to Hatchbacks v Saloons, that's just the aesthetic difference.

It's the 350bhp and 250kph v 650bhp and 300kph figures that's the noticeable part...!!!

The BTCC cars are simply too slow and underpowered to be taken seriously. They produce entertaining bumper-car racing. But the Aussie Supercars are high level motorsport beasts that produce proper, quality racing. Pound for pound the best racing series in the world, IMO. 

 

I'm sorry, but that's utter nonsense.

 

In the 1990s, which is widely regarded as the 'golden era' of the BTCC, the cars had 2.0 litre engines and even less power than they do today. But I doubt very few people were complaining about them being too slow 'to be taken seriously', because of the number of manufacturers involved and the quality of the drivers on the grid.

 

I just don't agree they need to be faster or more powerful to be exciting. There's GT racing for that, for a start. BTCC has always been about cars that are as close to their road going counterparts as possible, and sticking a wacking great V8 in a Honda Civic would just look ridiculous. And, as I wrote previously, if you did make BTCC cars as fast as what they have in Australia, then all of a sudden there would be safety concerns about the tracks they go to.

This is a grass is greener mentality, when in truth, the Australian Supercar series as it is right now isn't going to last. It is going to change in the near future - perhaps significantly.

 

It's funny to me - the most talk about the Supercars series I've seen on this forum and it's in this thread. And nah, MotoGP is the best racing series in the world.  

[LBDN]

Rinehart, on 10 Jan 2018 - 11:39, said:

I don't think the difference between BTCC and V8's comes down to Hatchbacks v Saloons, that's just the aesthetic difference.

It's the 350bhp and 250kph v 650bhp and 300kph figures that's the noticeable part...!!!

The BTCC cars are simply too slow and underpowered to be taken seriously. They produce entertaining bumper-car racing. But the Aussie Supercars are high level motorsport beasts that produce proper, quality racing. Pound for pound the best racing series in the world, IMO. 

 

When on earth did speed become key factor as to what makes a sport good? Formula one can be and usually is utter garbage? If anything, Euro F3 is normally better to watch and they are a lot slower. Have to say, i've attended a lot of BTCC meetings & F1 races and more often than not i find the BTCC meetings far more enjoyable. If anything, the most boring thing on the BTCC schedule is the Porsche support race. They are slightly quicker and sound fairly good but from a racing spectacle they are not great to watch at all. Considering you say BTCC isn't taken seriously, the crowds at the BTCC meetings to watch the BTCC suggest otherwise as does the long term TV deal. Seems like the BTCC is one of the few series of motorsport actually in good health at the moment.

[PayasYouRace]

Kraken, it would be better if you didn’t try to belittle fans of BTCC just because you don’t find the cars that exciting. NGTC cars aren’t as planted as you make out, certainly not as much as a DTM car or the Porsches that support BTCC.

Edit: well the post I was referring to has disappeared.

[blackhand2010]

In less contentious news, Ash Sutton is, as expected, sticking with Subaru and BMR, and Rob Collard with WSR and BMW.

 

As for a certain Mr Plato, an avid Tweeter, neither hide nor feather has been heard from him since Christmas day. Perhaps his time is finally up...

Edited by blackhand2010, 10 January 2018 - 18:47.

[Disgrace]

Neal and Collard had bad seasons and returned to championship-contending form. Plato could surely do the same.

[blackhand2010]

I think it's more to do with which team would have him, at this stage.

[Fastcake]

Someone would take Plato, if he's willing to be flexible, he's still the biggest name in the series. He is in the absolute twilight of his career now however.

[Disgrace]

blackhand2010, on 10 Jan 2018 - 20:52, said:

I think it's more to do with which team would have him, at this stage.

 

That's a caricature. He's not that toxic. Most teams would or at least should want him in one of their cars. The main problem is that the top teams, i.e. the manufacturers, have got their top drivers already. The second problem is that it just might not be worth Plato's time to drive, say, one of those shitty Fords.

[F1matt]

Plato has great skill in bringing sponsors and manufacturers to the series, he is still worthy of a seat, he was quicker than the other 2 Subaru drivers and there is no shame in been slower than Ash Sutton. He has harboured Le Mans ambitions maybe he might look to that if he leaves the BTCC?

[blackhand2010]

Disgrace, on 10 Jan 2018 - 21:01, said:

That's a caricature. He's not that toxic. Most teams would or at least should want him in one of their cars. The main problem is that the top teams, i.e. the manufacturers, have got their top drivers already. The second problem is that it just might not be worth Plato's time to drive, say, one of those shitty Fords.

 

That's kinda my point.

Unless he's coming in with a new team/manufacturer, all the top seats are taken.

I have read some speculation he may move sideways to a 888 run Subaru, but beyond that he's left in a Damon Hill in '97 style situation.