1942 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

"Toro Rosso will unveil its new Honda-powered car on the morning of the first pre-season Formula 1 test at Barcelona next month."

 

It's all terribly exciting.   

 

[Nova]

Time to start the 2018 thread soon?

 

At any rate. Not being held back by lackluster McLaren pit stops anymore, glory awaits for 2018 ......

 

[V8 Fireworks]

Time to start the 2018 thread soon?

 

At any rate. Not being held back by lackluster McLaren pit stops anymore, glory awaits for 2018 ......

 

 

It's always best to lower one's expectations. 

[JimmyTheFox]

Rumour time from Japan.

 

Honda have improve power output by 70hp on the dyno, lets hope a good chunk of that makes it to the track in Melbourne

[Pumpkinz]

The famous Honda Dyno that kept on delivering the 4.0 Spec or one in the Real World?

[JimmyTheFox]

The one that made Verstappen sign a new Red Bull contract

[Pumpkinz]

Ok, the fantasy one then. 

[V8 Fireworks]

Rumour time from Japan.

 

Honda have improve power output by 70hp on the dyno, lets hope a good chunk of that makes it to the track in Melbourne

 

 

 

If true that is superb but I refer to "lower your expectations". 

[Nova]

Toro Rosso target top 5

 

http://en.f1i.com/ne...-five-tost.html

 

Or at least in the hunt for top 5. But with those 70 ekstra HP .... McLaren watch out

[V8 Fireworks]

Toro Rosso target top 5

 

http://en.f1i.com/ne...-five-tost.html

 

Or at least in the hunt for top 5. But with those 70 ekstra HP .... McLaren watch out

 

It's good to aim high! 

 

I think Toro Rosso - Honda will be doing very well if they don't finish in last place of WCC.  (Assuming Sauber-Ferrari with current spec PU and Alfa sponsorship is much more competitive than 2017 Sauber-Ferrari.)

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 07 February 2018 - 07:13.

[Nova]

It's good to aim high!

I think Toro Rosso - Honda will be doing very well if they don't finish in last place of WCC. (Assuming Sauber-Ferrari with current spec PU and Alfa sponsorship is much more competitive than 2017 Sauber-Ferrari.)

I'd say that's fair. Still the least powerful engine, probably still the least reliable engine, small team, new team for Honda this year, and not that great a driver pairing. Everything above last is fair delivered.

[KWSN - DSM]

Will it be Orange?

 

[noikeee]

Toro Rosso target top 5

 

http://en.f1i.com/ne...-five-tost.html

 

Doesn't hurt to be ambitious. 

 

I mean, come on. Last year even at its best the car was only right about 5th best very fleetingly on the hands of Sainz, and before it started going backwards. Then they added a very unexperienced, dubious lineup of drivers. Then they added the worst engine on the field. Even if Honda do legitimately improve a lot, that's a hell of a lot of ground to make up. And that's not even considering they'll now be up against a Renault works team gaining momentum and a McLaren team gaining momentum.

 

They'll do okay if they beat Sauber IMO.

Edited by noikeee, 07 February 2018 - 11:22.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Anything better than a Minardi style back-marker will be a success imo.

 

Renowned rubbish engine + young, inexperienced drivers doesn't typically equal anything other than plum last.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 07 February 2018 - 11:34.

[PayasYouRace]

Seems like a good place to split the topic into a 2018 thread.

[KWSN - DSM]

So on topic....

 

2018 will be a tough year for Toro Rosso, the engine deal came about after the 2018 car had already been conceptualized and surely with various parts and pieces already manufactured, they are competing with an engine which have clearly less ooomphhfff than the other 3, they will be the favored child of the engine manufacturer being that they are currently an only child, but from the Mclaren Honda 3 years it constantly seemed as if they were not on the same page in the book.

 

I like the underdogs, I want the little ones to bat above their expectations, but 2018 with all the new including a driver pairing of F1 rookies will make for a steep mountain to climb.

 

Anything not finishing last will be a success.

 

[Nova]

 

 

 

Until it become serious ......

[Nova]

https://drivetribe.c...ITtG3TRUx0KvKjA

[KWSN - DSM]

One more sample of utter and complete lag of imagination.

 

[Stephane]

I'd love it to look like this. But i'm pretty sure the design won't change from las year

[Vettelari]

Call me crazy, but I think that Honda will have made a decent improvement. STR have developed a gem of the car the last few seasons. The drivers are the real question mark.

 

Being the Honda factory team will be an advantage.

 

I see STR battling with Williams, HAAS, and Sauber and beating all 3. 7th place overall is a real possibility, in my completely worthless opinion.

 

While not a popular opinion, I see them finishing 7th in the WCC, matching McLaren and Force India at some tracks, and being the surprise team of the year.

 

Unless Honda perform miracles, they will not be in the same class as MB, Ferrari, RBR, and Renault, though.

 

Just one fans viewing into the crystal ball...

Edited by Vettelari, 10 February 2018 - 07:05.

[DogEarred]

Your opinion is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

One thing that some people, including 'expert' journalists, seems to ignore, is that history means NOTHING in motor sport.

Whatever is there, on the track today is the only relevant fact.

 

And fact is, Honda are trying incredibly hard to sort out their problems. Honda powered drivers were running in the top ten by the end of last season, remember.

 

It's a compact engine (thanks to McLaren) & might well package nicely.

 

Being the 'works' team would be indeed be advantageous but that might not be case next season because it takes a year to make fundamental changes.

It could be a rare case of success being punished by the 'higher authority'.

 

Which leads us on to that 'higher authority'. It's completely messed up some very good drivers & left STR with the difficult task of progressing rapidly with two inexperienced (F1 sense) albeit very good drivers. That point was acknowledged by the team at the end of last season.

 

Overall, nobody knows.....

[DutchQuicksilver]

If they still had Sainz and Verstappen for example, sure, they could surprise. But, they have Gasly and Hartley, two average drivers. So no matter how good the car is, it will be compromised by their line up. Similar to Williams having the same problem.

[Disgrace]

Yeah, no. The drivers are the least of their worries.

[Pete_f1]

Will this be the new mega popular thread like the McLaren threads of the last three years?

[V8 Fireworks]

Will this be the new mega popular thread like the McLaren threads of the last three years?

 

Of course not, McLaren and Alonso (probably not so much Vandoorne) have many, many fans.

 

There are some Honda fans who are here like me, and maybe some Toro Rosso / Minardi fans and perhaps too some Hartley and Gasly fans... overall this is a much lower number of fans than McLaren and Alonso fans. 

 

Big thanks to Payasyourace for creating the thread.

 

 

 

While not a popular opinion, I see them finishing 7th in the WCC, matching McLaren and Force India at some tracks, and being the surprise team of the year.

 

 

I see Toro Rosso's problem as being that McLaren-Renault should be much more competitive, while Sauber-Ferrari should be more competitive.  I guess HAAS underperformed in 2017, will they do so again?  It is possible that Sauber, HAAS and Williams may underperform, and Toro Rosso may have the chance to nip ahead of them in the WCC.

 

While not a popular opinion, I see them finishing 7th in the WCC, matching McLaren and Force India at some tracks, and being the surprise team of the year.

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 10 February 2018 - 12:44.

[MastaKink]

Your opinion is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

One thing that some people, including 'expert' journalists, seems to ignore, is that history means NOTHING in motor sport.

Whatever is there, on the track today is the only relevant fact.

 

And fact is, Honda are trying incredibly hard to sort out their problems. Honda powered drivers were running in the top ten by the end of last season, remember.

 

It's a compact engine (thanks to McLaren) & might well package nicely.

 

Being the 'works' team would be indeed be advantageous but that might not be case next season because it takes a year to make fundamental changes.

It could be a rare case of success being punished by the 'higher authority'.

 

Which leads us on to that 'higher authority'. It's completely messed up some very good drivers & left STR with the difficult task of progressing rapidly with two inexperienced (F1 sense) albeit very good drivers. That point was acknowledged by the team at the end of last season.

 

Overall, nobody knows.....

 

BIB-Shouldn't that be thanks to Mercedes? Isn't the 2017 Honda re-do effectively a Mercedes knock off packaging wise?

 

The so-called McLaren one died with the compressor in the vee design (2015/16).

[Mc_Silver]

Rumour time from Japan.

Honda have improve power output by 70hp on the dyno, lets hope a good chunk of that makes it to the track in Melbourne

I remember Hasegawa saying they matched Mercedes levels of power at the beginning of 2017 before the tests.

[Vettelari]

I keep thinking back to Max's visit to Honda that another poster brought up. Verstappen was so impressed that he immediately signed with RBR. That says a lot to me.

 

This is probably Honda's last chance to get it right and their big audition for RBR. Having Honda fail would be detrimental to the sport and would discourage other manufacturers from giving it a go. F1 needs Honda to succeed. This is the make or break year.

Edited by Vettelari, 11 February 2018 - 02:05.

[ArrowsLivery]

It'll be really good for Honda to have a helpful partner for once. One that doesn't impose senseless design limitations on the PU. Do we know who will supply oils and fuel to Honda this year? BP's fuel was pathetic last year. 

[MastaKink]

It'll be really good for Honda to have a helpful partner for once. One that doesn't impose senseless design limitations on the PU. Do we know who will supply oils and fuel to Honda this year? BP's fuel was pathetic last year. 

 

They'll be using Esso I believe and Marko said there wasn't much difference between Esso and BP last year so what makes you say they were pathetic?

[ArrowsLivery]

They'll be using Esso I believe and Marko said there wasn't much difference between Esso and BP last year so what makes you say they were pathetic?

 

I think BP's fuel was a large reason for Honda's struggles with TJI. Also I think Horner had said they were very happy with their new Mobil1 fuel, and that they were seeing real gains compared to the factory Renault PU. 

[MastaKink]

I think BP's fuel was a large reason for Honda's struggles with TJI. Also I think Horner had said they were very happy with their new Mobil1 fuel, and that they were seeing real gains compared to the factory Renault PU. 

 

I don't know why the BP wouldn't work with Honda to that extent but be ok with Renault, I think Honda's issue was it was the first year they ran any form of lean burn and they had too many other problems to deal with at the same time as having an underdeveloped combustion process. (Biggest issue was the MGU-H's reliability and how it was used according to a Honda article I saw translated elsewhere)

 

I can remember the fuel upgrades and comments from Horner and RB praising them but not at the expense of BP and the factory Renault. BP also brought upgrades that were praised like the one that was part of the developmental upgrade Max,Hulk and Hartley got (Obviously Max didn't use the fuel).

 

It certainly can make a difference, I was wary of it myself when it was announced after watching McLaren in 2014, but I just haven't seen anything that suggests BP are lagging in any way and I remember reading there was a Renault engineer working with both companies and Red Bull to aid development so assumed they'd still be quite similar after Marko's comments stating so, but those comments where a while ago now to be fair so maybe that changed during the season.

 

Something to follow anyway as even McLaren's situation is a little unclear as they've removed Castrol from their partner list so maybe there is something going on there...

[Ferrari2012]

I think BP's fuel was a large reason for Honda's struggles with TJI. Also I think Horner had said they were very happy with their new Mobil1 fuel, and that they were seeing real gains compared to the factory Renault PU. 

bulls**T the main problem by Honda is they are not ready to perform and they underestimate the challenge...when they understand it ...it was too late....and it will also be the problem until the change of engine in 2021 because they are too far behind the others...you cannot erase this deficit in one winter because the other move on...this is the reason why McLaren left them because they understand that Honda cannot catch up the other....the expertise of Redbull will help them BUT they cannot beat other manufacture  because I read somewhere that the Honda department for the PU is a lot smaller than the others so how in this world you can catch up the other without spend more money than other...it s a race and without money and right people it s impossible.there is no miracle there.

[Nova]

bulls**T the main problem by Honda is they are not ready to perform and they underestimate the challenge...when they understand it ...it was too late....and it will also be the problem until the change of engine in 2021 because they are too far behind the others...you cannot erase this deficit in one winter because the other move on...this is the reason why McLaren left them because they understand that Honda cannot catch up the other....the expertise of Redbull will help them BUT they cannot beat other manufacture  because I read somewhere that the Honda department for the PU is a lot smaller than the others so how in this world you can catch up the other without spend more money than other...it s a race and without money and right people it s impossible.there is no miracle there.

 

I read in the McLaren thread that someone at McLaren stated that a difference between Renault and Honda were experience.  Both at the track and at the factory. It sounded like Honda had more whistles and bells (machines) than Renault, but that experience counts for more.

 

Experience take time. Renault have throttled around in F1, Honda have come and gone.

[statman]

last couple of posts from "Wazari", the Honda insider on F1t for those who are interested:

 

Back on topic, I think that 980 HP is being very optimistic at this time. Good or bad, Honda has taken a very aggressive and innovative approach to 2018. The overall architecture remains the same but big changes in the intake and combustion process should be forthcoming as well as a MGU-H unit. Obviously the goal is to surpass Mercedes and while difficult, not impossible. I think a more realistic number would be 980 HP by mid-season.

 

-

 

Spec 4.0 is the one that we specifically worked on with "our" designed combustion components. There really isn't a bastard version. Only the basic architecture remains the same. The physical dimensions remain fairly close. The two versions being tested now for the upcoming season are both Spec 4.0 based with upgrades. There is a completely "new" combustion process PU that is built but with almost zero running time at this moment. I assume that is the major mid-season planned PU. Also both "new" PU's have logged considerably more KM's than 2,500 without any major issues so I don't where this "only lasts 2,500 KM's" rumor is coming from.

 

-

 

Well as they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat. This formula as we know presents many challenges. Fuel load and flow limits, and IMO the most challenging to achieve the highest power from the ICE is the injector pressure restriction. Where you can be creative is the air-fuel ratio, how its delivered and ignited with one injector and spark plug. I think we all can also agree that some configuration of a pre-chamber is necessary which houses the spark plug to keep the extremely difficult to ignite lean mixture away. So if you can figure out how pre-ignite a richer mixture with the spark plug to ignite the super lean mixture in the main chamber, while at same time running the highest compression ratio possible for power and max volume of exhaust gases for the turbine, then you have an ICE that potentially can produce 850 HP from 1.6 L. To achieve max exhaust volume/velocity, you want an outside to inside ignition pattern in the main chamber with plasma jets to reach the outside edges of the piston utilizing the pre-chamber.

 

So to achieve all those things, piston design has become the main focus along with chamber design, with intake design a close second IMO among all the manufacturers. The area where I think Honda will be unique is in the actual cylinder head routing of intake and exhaust gases and valve placement. I won't go into more detail at this time but maybe a point to ponder??

 

© F1T & Wazari

Edited by statman, 11 February 2018 - 18:44.

[TF110]

Is this guy still (or even) credible? Has he said anything that has come to be? Legitimate question.

[Nova]

Is this guy still (or even) credible? Has he said anything that has come to be? Legitimate question.

 

Have no idea, but sure hope so  

 

The other site had a lot of other unconfirmed information as well, as in Honda wanting to buy a team. Most likely Toro Rosso, but also open for Red bull and Williams. Don't know how that would align with rumors of Honda supplying Red Bull and Toro Rosso.

[V8 Fireworks]

Have no idea, but sure hope so

The other site had a lot of other unconfirmed information as well, as in Honda wanting to buy a team. Most likely Toro Rosso, but also open for Red bull and Williams. Don't know how that would align with rumors of Honda supplying Red Bull and Toro Rosso.

I would rather they didn't as it went so badly last time! Can't fathom how the Earthdreams livery ever got approved, what a terrible idea.

I think it would be better to partner closely with Red Bull, if possible.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 February 2018 - 07:22.

[MrRat]

Is this guy still (or even) credible? Has he said anything that has come to be? Legitimate question.

Nopes. I used to believe in him but I highly doubt he is who he claims to be. A senior Honda engineer is not going to post random **** that has been debunked before on the internet. He claimed in 2016 that the PU was going to be very powerful but they were having issues with reliability but that should be solved soon and then he claimed that his team's solution wasn't chosen despite being better because McLaren didnt  like it.
 

[Nicktendo86]

But they still lap everything he says in that forum like it is gospel.

[MastaKink]

But they still lap everything he says in that forum like it is gospel.

 

He obviously does or did work at Sakura, I've no doubt about that, the owner of the forum is sharp enough not to get catfished to that extent but that doesn't mean what he says is gospel. He talks about literally every single aspect of the PU and chassis, every nut and bolt from combustion to suspension to the ERS system, and says he has access to McLaren emails,race telemetry etc., and he literally knows everything about everything. Even Hasegawa and Arai would struggle to have that level of knowledge and access across so many different divisions across 3 different factory's while they were the boss and in an active role, never mind just being a retired team leader in combustion like Wazari said he was. It's just silly.

 

His own division was said to be combustion but he didn't even know what fuel they were using and of course he was caught passing off muramasa's translations as internal memo's so how they then put up that ring of steel even after being caught in at least 2 straight out lies is beyond me. He's never broke an exclusive and we've just learned from the documentary it was Macca's fault they cancelled the shakedown because of the floor but strangely enough that information never made it out in between all his other claims of McLaren failures which have never been confirmed elsewhere.

 

Now he's got his own pu named after him, the mythical "Wazari Spec 4". It's truly one of the weirdest situations I've ever seen online and he must be pissing himself laughing.

 

Ok,this post was long and o/t, apologies mods.

[Risil]

That's enough chatting about other forums please.

[JimmyTheFox]

Engine installed and fired up

 

@ToroRosso/status/963779793161539584

[statman]

Engine installed and fired up

 

@ToroRosso/status/963779793161539584

 

 

But I'm quite excited actually.

 

I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if the Honda turns out to be a monster? Given Alonso's decision history, it might be possible 

[PayasYouRace]

Engine installed and fired up
 
@ToroRosso/status/963779793161539584

Interesting that they don’t actually show it firing up. I wonder if they had to start it manually again?

[noikeee]

Engine installed and fired up

 

@ToroRosso/status/963779793161539584

At the first attempt, or did they have to manufacture last minute parts?

[steferrari]

Engine installed and fired up

 

@ToroRosso/status/963779793161539584

 

 

[Disgrace]

Fair play to them if they can keep that up all season.

[goingthedistance]

That's brilliant.