119 replies to this topic

[Simon Hadfield]

Is there anywhere today a better motorsporting spectacle than an HSCC Historic Formula Ford race?  At one point yesterday in the second race the front eight cars were covered by 1.2 seconds and the first six at the finish were split by only a second.  If there was ever a Grand Prix with this intensity, and it has to be said, respect, it would be discussed through the ages!  

With the first four or five positions changing during every lap, with every single front running car finishing, I can only recommend forgoing your bizarrely priced ticket to the snoozeathon that passes as top flight motorsport today and get to see one of these races as soon as possible.  

For the display of pure talent and ability I really cannot think of any other competing category. 

It is also worth noting that the first eight cars were comprised of 5 different makes and 7 different models.   

[Mallory Dan]

Hear hear, Simon. I was at the Saturday event, just brilliant!

[Cirrus]

I agree. The second HFF race at Donington was possibly the best race I have ever seen.

[JacnGille]

The SCCA National Championship FF races at Road Atlanta were always barn burners!

[RTH]

FF1600 was elegantly simple accessible and clearly judging by the multi championships at the time affordable it created  the racing car construction industry of the UK.

They tampered with it at their peril  and lost. Triggering the slow decline of it all.

[Giraffe]

There is a rather rude joke about a bear shoot that I cannot repeat here, but it ends with the bear tapping the guy with the rifle on the shoulder and saying to him ..."you're not  really here for the hunting, are you???"

  It's much the same as F1, football and many other mass popularity sports, go into the crowd at Silverstone and you will find Hamilton or Ferrari or whoever fans not giving a damn about the quality of the racing, but just craving a victory for their hero or team. Football is the same, it's being caught up in the tribal atmosphere and that sense of belonging to something. That's how sport is marketed.

Historic Formula Ford is truly awesome as a racing spectacle as Simon says, and has been for a long time now and that's pretty much how it was in period. Marshalling on the first lap of a top Formula Ford championship race 45 years ago was utterly terrifying such was the intensity of the racing. If you could only bottle it......

Edited by Giraffe, 09 April 2018 - 15:48.

[John Ginger]

I knew there was a reason why it takes me until October/ November to get to Silverstone

Must get to some earlier HSCC meetings

[john aston]

Go to Cadwell in May - no better place and no better time of year , to watch HSCC racing.  

[AJCee]

Looking back, I have to say that the FF Festival was one of THE events of the year for me. In its heyday it was a fantastic weekend's entertainment with a format that generated excitement and terrific racing.

[E1pix]

The SCCA National Championship FF races at Road Atlanta were always barn burners!

If recalling correctly, the winner in 1977 was 1.8 seconds ahead of 17th at the finish. 

 

Thank You Simon, huge FF fan here, since 1972! And still, and I lettered over 100 of them in my sign days.

 

A best friend won our championship twice, in 1972 and 1974, when it really meant something. These days, not so much, so it's great you have such a rabid following there!

 

So pleeeease stop this thread, lest we load us the bus and head on over. 

[D-Type]

It's a pity that FF was just too late to be eligible for the Goodwood Revival.
Having said that, it is probably the reason that Historic FF is still affordable.

[Mallory Dan]

Probably says summat about National/Club racing in the 70s/80s, that I often used to regard FF races as race meeting fillers. While they were good at that time, I reckon 76 and 78 in particular, I'd regularly turn my attention to the next really interesting race. Clubmans A, Spec Saloons, F4, Libre, FF2K, S2000, Modsports, even Prodsaloons on occasion. Possibly because FFs were so numerous, sometimes a meeting would have 4 different races for them, familiarity tended to breed a little contempt. Now though, invariably they're the highlight of HSCC meets - apart from FF2K of course....!

[opplock]

It's a pity that FF was just too late to be eligible for the Goodwood Revival.
 

 

Keep FF well away please. Historic FF allows those without seven figure bank balances to compete on relatively equal terms and the racing is fantastic. The HSCC Superprix is my favourite meeting of the year. It usually conflicts with the FOS which largely explains why I haven't been to FOS for more than 10 years.   

[Nick Planas]

My brother was timekeeping and sent me this link:

https://www.youtube....h?v=xlgSJclUbO4

[DogEarred]

FF1600 was elegantly simple accessible and clearly judging by the multi championships at the time affordable it created  the racing car construction industry of the UK.

They tampered with it at their peril  and lost. Triggering the slow decline of it all.

 

I may upset people by saying that I think 'they' was Stuart Turner.

 

I remember his speech after the FFF at Brands circa 1980 when he announced all kinds of things to 'professionalize' it. 

 

Almost everybody clapped & cheered, not least a very few manufacturers who could see short term rich pickings. I can remember thinking "This is going to kill it all".

 

As you say, it triggered the slow decline.

[Gary C]

after coming in 'towards the back' in an HSCC Superprix Historic FFord race, one of my mates informed me that I had missed a good race!

[Stephen W]

FF1600 at Silverstone back in the day was manic. Usually 15 cars in the leading bunch which might get whittled down to just TEN by the end! Whilst often there would be two heats and a final - all three races being cliff-hangers.  I agree with Mallory Dan (for once!) that the proliferation of FF1600 races often watered down what was on offer. On some trips to Oulton there would be four races on the card and very few people doing more than one of them!

[Cirrus]

My brother was timekeeping and sent me this link:

https://www.youtube....h?v=xlgSJclUbO4

 

That in-car footage only shows a small part of the action. As Richard Tarling said in his comment on YouTube - he really needed a rear-facing camera as well.

 

Try these...

 

 

Edited by Cirrus, 10 April 2018 - 07:28.

[E1pix]

My brother was timekeeping and sent me this link:
https://www.youtube....h?v=xlgSJclUbO4

Camera car's got one serious motor!

[2F-001]

Wow!

[Bloggsworth]

Camera car's got one serious motor!

 

You could always tell when you'd been overtaken by a car with an A6 cam - Not that I'm suggesting  that this is the case in this particular instance.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 10 April 2018 - 08:32.

[Nick Planas]

That in-car footage only shows a small part of the action. As Richard Tarling said in his comment on YouTube - he really needed a rear-facing camera as well.

 

Try these...

 

 

What with this footage and the passing of John Miles, it got me thinking about those old F3 races in the late 60s; 6+ cars battling for the lead. *sigh*

[JacnGille]

[2F-001]

re. the Donington footage: I noticed that they managed to race in close-company without knocking off each other's front wing endplates or barge boards; maybe they're not trying hard enough...

Edited by 2F-001, 10 April 2018 - 13:10.

[E1pix]

Cirrus' links shows some flying parts, all is right with the world. :-)

[Bloggsworth]

Oh, we were trying, but as most of us were paying our way, bending each others cars was not an option. I spent 10 laps trying to get past Freddie Jacks once; he made Brabham look slim; we ran side by side all the way round Brands, wheels overlapping on more than one occasion, we didn't touch each other once (I finally got past on the 11th lap).

[RTH]

Camera car's got one serious motor!

Yes he has.

[MCS]

FF1600 at Silverstone back in the day was manic. Usually 15 cars in the leading bunch which might get whittled down to just TEN by the end! Whilst often there would be two heats and a final - all three races being cliff-hangers.  I agree with Mallory Dan (for once!) that the proliferation of FF1600 races often watered down what was on offer. On some trips to Oulton there would be four races on the card and very few people doing more than one of them!

 

Excellent thread.  I absolutely loved Formula Ford in the seventies - it was a regular "no holds barred" extravaganza that very, very rarely failed to deliver.  I can happily remember two heats and then a final at Oulton Park, three heats and a final at Mallory and wonderful close racing at Aintree (remember Ian Smith's magnificent "alternative" FF Festival?) and Silverstone - especially on the Club Circuit.  Wow.

 

And then of course there were races - including the wondrous FF Festivals - at Snetterton and Brands and just about everywhere else. I enjoyed FF1600, as it became, in Ireland, Holland and Belgium before I fell away from racing - but even then I would attend the FF Festival at Brands when I hadn't a clue who was even likely to win.

Edited by MCS, 10 April 2018 - 17:22.

[FrankB]

FF1600 at Silverstone back in the day was manic. Usually 15 cars in the leading bunch which might get whittled down to just TEN by the end! Whilst often there would be two heats and a final - all three races being cliff-hangers. 

I have recollections of a Silverstone FF commentary in the 70s that went something like, "At the end of the first lap Smith is in the lead, Jones is in second place and everyone else is in third."

[Sterzo]

Looking back, I have to say that the FF Festival was one of THE events of the year for me. In its heyday it was a fantastic weekend's entertainment with a format that generated excitement and terrific racing.

Still is for some of us. OK, you can no longer play "spot the future champion", but it's unbeatable for pure racing.

[RTH]

Well there is a very small 3 cylinder Ford 1 litre engine and  transmission & driveshafts  in the base Fiesta which transversely could be attached to a very simple slim minimalist single seater. Cost is what really counts if you want  something to grow and be a success. Remember how popular  500 racing and 1 litr F3 became and the thrills low powered racing cars provide . ditto for instance 125cc motorcyle racing and before that bikes with just 50cc . 6 a breast coming in to the very last bend.

 

IF , there was the will ( and there does not seem to be )  it could  happen again . John Webb used to  get things moving  often with success.

[Mallory Dan]

Did I hear MAWP on Saturday saying something about why FF isn't invited to the Members Meeting at Goodwood? 

[Bloggsworth]

Did I hear MAWP on Saturday saying something about why FF isn't invited to the Members Meeting at Goodwood? 

 

Common people did Formula Ford...

[2F-001]

Did I hear MAWP on Saturday saying something about why FF isn't invited to the Members Meeting at Goodwood? 

As a competitor, how would you feel about that, Bloggsworth?

A huge pack josting and slipstreaming around Goodwood might be good to watch, but as others have intimated it could possibly trigger an unwelcome (for some) skewing of the market for FF1600s - and the use thereof.

[E1pix]

That's a good point, Tony...

[Cirrus]

Historic FF1600 provides fantastic racing and fits perfectly within the HSCC's portfolio. If HFF were to be invited to Goodwood we would soon see cars changing hands for £50K-£60K - there is a precedent...

 

Classic F3 has suffered in the UK thanks to the "Monaco Effect". When 2 litre F3 cars were invited to Monaco Historique, prices shot up - the value of an historic racing car is directly proportional to what you can do with it. Wealthy people were buying cars purely for Monaco and not racing them anywhere else. Owners of existing CF3 cars blew their entire season's budget on the Monaco race which resulted in depleted grids domestically.

 

Now Monaco has gone F1, the wealthy people don't want to sell their F3 cars at a loss so are sitting on them. As a result, the 2 litre F3 cars in the UK struggle to get viable grids.

Edited by Cirrus, 11 April 2018 - 17:54.

[Bloggsworth]

As a competitor, how would you feel about that, Bloggsworth?

A huge pack josting and slipstreaming around Goodwood might be good to watch, but as others have intimated it could possibly trigger an unwelcome (for some) skewing of the market for FF1600s - and the use thereof.

 

Someone needs to invent a tongue in cheek emoji...

[2F-001]

For me, or for you?     

 

Joking aside, I would be interested to hear the views of a regular enthusiast and competitor who’s supporting historic FF1600.

 

I suppose anyone who’s wanting, or needing, to sell a desirable car might welcome a ‘gentrifying’ of the market, but as Cirrus explains (above) it could have unintended (or undesirable) consequences.

[john aston]

Judging by the interest of many of the crowd at Goodwood in anything other than saloons and Cobras/ E Types I suspect that , for some, giving them FF1600 would be like giving a pig a strawberry. It's nearly as bad at the Silverstone Classic - the best racing , by a big margin,  comes from F Junior and FF1600 when invited. And nobody watches it  ....

[Michael Ferner]

I guess Formula Ford's problem is that the cars themselves are not "sexy" - they're pretty boring, technically, and mostly "not pretty". Even for enthusiasts, on-track action is not the be-all.

[john aston]

Really ? From a formula which might have the same engine and gearbox but with more different chassis than 2018 Indy, F1 , F2 and F3 put together? Not that  that is too hard .

 

The secret is to watch FF 1600 on track and historic F1 etc in the paddock or in practice . 

 

But for me , the simple elemental appeal of  motor racing is -'will the guy behind get in front ; and if so where and how ?' FF1600 , since I first watched it in 1968 offers more opportunities to savour that appeal than any other formula - and without pushing , shoving or (these days?  ) much cheating . Not that I  haven't seen some cynical gamesmanship in F1600 in the days before the all seeing eye of CCTV 

[E1pix]

I guess Formula Ford's problem is that the cars themselves are not "sexy" - they're pretty boring, technically, and mostly "not pretty". Even for enthusiasts, on-track action is not the be-all.

Serious question: What racing *do* you like?

[Mallory Dan]

Really ? From a formula which might have the same engine and gearbox but with more different chassis than 2018 Indy, F1 , F2 and F3 put together? Not that  that is too hard .

 

The secret is to watch FF 1600 on track and historic F1 etc in the paddock or in practice . 

 

But for me , the simple elemental appeal of  motor racing is -'will the guy behind get in front ; and if so where and how ?' FF1600 , since I first watched it in 1968 offers more opportunities to savour that appeal than any other formula - and without pushing , shoving or (these days?  ) much cheating . Not that I  haven't seen some cynical gamesmanship in F1600 in the days before the all seeing eye of CCTV 

Many involving a certain 'Brazilian deity', John? 

[Michael Ferner]

Serious question: What racing *do* you like?

Oh, I like watching FFords race, and have watched the posted videos with interest, and a big smile on my face!! But, as John so well remarked, I guess "the secret is to watch FF 1600 on track and historic F1 etc in the paddock or in practice"

[Simon Hadfield]

A bit off topic but I defy anyone who saw the original Swift DB1 being unloaded before its first Runoffs not to have been impressed with Formula Ford design and detail. This car was a paradigm shift not just in Formula Ford but in the way all serious customer racing cars from then on were schemed and built.    Prior to that the ADF matched pretty much any technology being used in any other road racing discipline.  Along the way the Van Diemen RF 90 series, the Reynard 84 then 87, I can go on, all set new standards for affordable race cars.  

The point that is so often missed is that FF1600 as a "modern" series was always going to have to change at some point as the Ford Motor Company a) ceased to make that engine and b) thought it was difficult to use a terribly old fashioned "dirty" engine as the basis of any publicity campaign. 

Today, of course, this is all works to give us some of the best motor racing on the planet.  

Edited by Simon Hadfield, 13 April 2018 - 08:09.

[john aston]

Many involving a certain 'Brazilian deity', John? 

None actually - when I saw him in FF1600 he disappeared into the distance. I wouldn't name and shame but will say the best FF1600 drive I ever saw was Mark Blundell at Cadwell. He'd started at the front , got pushed off , and his recovery drive was a masterclass in elbows out, red mist fury .  

[2F-001]

A bit off topic but I defy anyone who saw the original Swift DB1 being unloaded before its first Runoffs not to have been impressed with Formula Ford design and detail. This car was a paradigm shift not just in Formula Ford but in the way all serious customer racing cars from then on were schemed and built. 

That was a Dave Bruns design, wasn't it?  Carroll Smith held him in very high regard a a designer/engineer.

 

With regards to how the formula developed, a couple of guys who raced FF1600 seriously in it's heyday as a contemporary category, explained to me just how much the initial switch to Zetec changed things; not just the engine characteristics, the way the cars had to be run, the handling, and hence the nature of the racing. 

It's hard to see how that might have been avoided - as Simon points out, it wouldn't have seemed, from Ford's overseeing corporate business viewpoint, advantageous for it to continue as it was for a relatively high-profile (near)front-line series.

Edited by 2F-001, 13 April 2018 - 08:56.

[E1pix]

Edit: Thank You for mentioning Mr. Bruns' cars, Simon!

 

 

Yes, David Bruns designed both the ADF and the Swifts. We're darned proud of him over here:

https://en.wikipedia...ift_Engineering

 

The ADF seemingly came out of nowhere here, such a radical advancement to the period's Lolas, Titans, Crossles, and the rest as to be patently unfair. Bob Earl won the car's debut Championship at Road Atlanta, Jacngille and myself were there (though didn't know each other then, he a tech inspector and me a reporter and signwriter).

 

That first ADF split a lifetime friend's two Championships ("Fast Eddie" Miller) while he was off going fast but also going broke in pro F5000.  

 

Then came the Swift DB-1 in 1983, to same effect. A later-marque DB-6 won the SCCA Runoffs as late as 2006 in Topeka, by then a decades-old design against the millennial Van Diemens and Pipers. By this time Bruns was well into designing Indy and F-Atlantic cars, and his Indy chassis won on its debut weekend. Amazing stuff...

 

 

And though OT in location, here's our 1980 FF National Championship… a real barn-burner. FF fans will love this, our friend Eddie's final Runoffs in FF, though a poor qualifying meant starting in the teens and never quite catching the lead draft (white #1, graphics by, Ahem, myself at 19):

Edited by E1pix, 15 April 2018 - 21:05.

[JacnGille]

^  I was lookin for that.  

[Sterzo]

I guess Formula Ford's problem is that the cars themselves are not "sexy"

I can (and do) stare for ages at a Formula Ford car with its clothes off, no matter how often I've seen one before. (I was at Brands in '67 for the first ever public FF race, and remember saying it wouldn't catch on).