38 replies to this topic

[formelkh]

Hello,

 

again I´ve a question about the history of motor racing.

 

I´m working at my database for F1 Drivers and arrives at Roy Salvadori

 

Born 12.5.1922 in Dovercourt, Essex, died 3.6.2012, 47 GP´s and 19 points in the World-Championship.

 

He won also a lot of races in other classes and I ask myself what means the word Handicap

 

in the 1952 race BARC Goodwood [Handicap] he won at an Jaguar.

 

I´m happy with this forum and sure someone can answer me.

 

With Regards

Karl-Heinz

 

 

[GazChed]

Handicap car races were popular at Brooklands and other British circuits before and immediately after the Second World War . Early racing at Brooklands was based very closely on the organisation of horse racing with relatively short races where close finishes are aided by the use of a handicap . Unlike horse racing where horses are handicapped by carrying different weights in motor racing the handicap is by time penalties with the slowest car ( limit ) starting first and the quickest car starting last ( scratch ) the idea being that all cars arrive at the finish together .

Handicap races in contemporary motor racing have all but died out , although they are still held at Vintage Sports Car Club ( VSCC ) meetings and other smaller club meetings such as those organised by the Morgan and Bentley Sports Car Clubs .

Some long distance pre WW2 races especially those held at Brooklands used different types of handicap , the use of bends in lanes of varying severity to slow different classes of car more or less severely or where cars were handicapped ,once again on a class basis , where the smallest capacity cars were set off first through to the unlimited cars which set off quite some time later .

However the race that Salvadori won was likely to have been one of the numerous short handicaps of the type described in the first paragraph , which were a popular feature of Goodwood Members meetings throughout the circuits original life .

Edited by GazChed, 22 April 2018 - 15:57.

[Michael Ferner]

In the US, handicap can also mean a reversed start, i.e. slowest qualifier first, fastest last.

[Vitesse2]

Handicap races have been a feature of British racing since the earliest times at Brooklands. As with horse racing, where the jockeys are assigned extra weight to even things up, the idea is to even up the performance of widely differing cars and/or drivers. There are also several different handicapping methods, but the theory behind it is that if every car performed exactly according to its assigned handicap they would all cross the finish line together.

 

I'm open to correction here, as my knowledge of handicaps is mainly about pre-war racing, but as GazChed says it could have been either an individual handicap based on the driver/car combination or a 'class handicap', in which the cars would be released in groups, the smallest-engined ones being sent off first, with the bigger ones chasing. 'Hare and hounds' - if that translates into German!

 

Handicap racing was also a feature of (especially) Irish, Australian and South African road racing, but there were also some in France between the wars and in Italy in the immediate period after World War 2. ARCA in the United States also ran road handicaps in the 1930s.

[Tim Murray]

I'm guessing the race in question is this one:

http://www.racingspo...07-26-8456.html

As Gaz suggested, a short 5-lap race taking a little over 10 minutes. I suspect the XK120s would have been on scratch, the 8-litre Bentley on limit and the Frazer Nash and Healey somewhere in between.

[Allan Lupton]

Even as a Handicapper I can't add much to what's been written above. In the 1920s/30s many quite important races such as the TT were run as handicaps - in the case of the Ulster TTs a class handicap was used. The 1929 programme extolled the excellence of the handicap system citing the 13 second winning margin in 1928 - conveniently forgetting that Don's winning Lea-Francis and the Alvis that came second were both in the 1½ litre class so started together.

 

Post-war we handicapped on an individual basis with the aim of giving every competitor the same chance of winning so that it all came down to bravery at the last corner!

Like this if it all goes wrong:

[formelkh]

Thanks for your replies, now I understand it better.

 

Karl-Heinz

[Vitesse2]

Some long distance pre WW2 races especially those held at Brooklands used different types of handicap , the use of bends in lanes of varying severity to slow different classes of car more or less severely or where cars were handicapped ,once again on a class basis , where the smallest capacity cars were set off first through to the unlimited cars which set off quite some time later .

Not quite correct. The 'separate lanes' handicap system was used only in the JCC International Trophy at Brooklands. This enabled a mass start. The smallest cars had a straight-through route, while the most powerful ones had to negotiate a tight bend.

 

There was also another massed start handicap system which employed 'credit laps'. Originated at Donington Park for short races, sometimes used in Ireland and also for the 1937 Donington 12 Hours and the 1937 and 1938 TTs. Very difficult for spectators to follow unless they were opposite a scoreboard or a wizard with a slide rule!

[ensign14]

Then there's the Index of Performance, which used some sort of coefficient that gave a benefit to the smaller cars that would not contend for overall victory.  Which was a sort of handicap as the prize went to the one that beat its par score by the highest.

[GazChed]

What's a slide rule ?

[Michael Ferner]

A smartphone without batteries.

[D-Type]

Many rallies were run on a handicap basis with different time allowances for different classes.  eg the Safari up to 1958 or the Monte Carlo Rally up to the mid-sixties.

[Tim Murray]

Some long distance pre WW2 races especially those held at Brooklands used different types of handicap , the use of bends in lanes of varying severity to slow different classes of car more or less severely or where cars were handicapped ,once again on a class basis , where the smallest capacity cars were set off first through to the unlimited cars which set off quite some time later .

Not quite correct. The 'separate lanes' handicap system was used only in the JCC International Trophy at Brooklands. This enabled a mass start. The smallest cars had a straight-through route, while the most powerful ones had to negotiate a tight bend.

[Roger Clark]

I'm guessing the race in question is this one:

http://www.racingspo...07-26-8456.html

As Gaz suggested, a short 5-lap race taking a little over 10 minutes. I suspect the XK120s would have been on scratch, the 8-litre Bentley on limit and the Frazer Nash and Healey somewhere in between.

Tony Cook’s Frazier Nash was on scratch Peacock’s ‘Nash on 7 seconds and Stoop’s ‘Nash on 9. Hemsworth’s XK120 on 13 seconds. Salvadori and Crozier’s 8-litre Bentley on 23 seconds. It was an end of event race for the first four finishers in earlier scratch races. It may be that the handicaps were based on performance in the earlier races; Salvadori finished fourth in his, 3/5 sec behind the Bentley.

[GazChed]

Great photos Tim . Nice to see the Health and Safety of the day , making sure spectators stayed safely behind the wattle fencing ! I also notice the cars appear to have different colour patches on their tails , to help spectators differentiate between the different classes , a similar system still being used in multi-class racing to this day .

[RCH]

We still have handicap races today at a high level. Only now it's called Balance of Performance.

[Porsche718]

In Oz, because of our nanny state, workplace safety, bureaucratic rule makers, some of our historic meetings may have a "post applied" handicap time added after an event has finished. But this sort of defeats the purpose as spectators still can't work out who has won.

[Roger Clark]

We should always distinguish between handicaps based on engine capacity, and those based on past performance. The former, whether based on class or actual capacity, is used in more serious racing. The latter is more commonly used in club racing. Nowadays, the use of success ballast and performance equalisation are really handicap systems of the second type.

Grand Prix racing was run to a handicap system in 1938-39.

[Vitesse2]

Great photos Tim . Nice to see the Health and Safety of the day , making sure spectators stayed safely behind the wattle fencing ! I also notice the cars appear to have different colour patches on their tails , to help spectators differentiate between the different classes , a similar system still being used in multi-class racing to this day .

And also so that the judges (not spectators) seen in the picture could verify that the cars were using the right lanes.

[Charlieman]

Vintage and classic motorcycle racing organisers occasionally hold handicap races -- sidecar events are highly recommended.

 

The 1937 South African GP at which Bernd Rosemeyer (Auto Union Type C) started with a handicap of 52:53, two minutes after his team mate Ernst von Delius, is an interesting example of the handicapper challenge.

http://8w.forix.com/au-sa37.html

[Eric Dunsdon]

The great Farina won a five lap handicap at the September 1951 Goodwood meeting  after starting from scratch in  his Works Alfetta 158.  which must have been wonderful to see.

[Roger Clark]

The great Farina won a five lap handicap at the September 1951 Goodwood meeting after starting from scratch in his Works Alfetta 158. which must have been wonderful to see.

It must! Farina gave 47 secs start to the HWMs of Moss and Abecassis. He passed Abecassis approaching Woodcote on the last lap and Moss between Woodcote and the finishing line. Knowing what we do about Farina’s driving, I imagine that he was fairly forceful.

Reg Parnell in the Thinwall also got past Abecassis.

Edited by Roger Clark, 24 April 2018 - 17:38.

[GazChed]

Forgive me for going slightly off topic , as well as handicaps the horse racing tradition of betting was an integral part of the the Brooklands scene before the war . Did this continue at Goodwood and elsewhere after the war ? The layout of the racecards for the Revival meetings suggest it did . ( Although I accept the Revival meetings don't always follow how things were done in period ! )

[Allan Lupton]

Don't know about Goodwood but I was at Silverstone for a BRDC (I think) meeting in the 1970s where there was a bookie. There was a race for historic single-seaters (250F Maseratis and suchlike) and odds were duly posted after practice.

Willie Green, driving the Bamford 250F, had trouble in practice so recorded an uncharacteristically high lap time and the odds reflected that, the bookie having done insufficient research. Rumour had it that Willie had put a few quid on himself to win - which he did.

[Porsche718]

Don't know about Goodwood but I was at Silverstone for a BRDC (I think) meeting in the 1970s where there was a bookie. There was a race for historic single-seaters (250F Maseratis and suchlike) and odds were duly posted after practice.

Willie Green, driving the Bamford 250F, had trouble in practice so recorded an uncharacteristically high lap time and the odds reflected that, the bookie having done insufficient research. Rumour had it that Willie had put a few quid on himself to win - which he did.

 

Now Allan, how long will it be before someone mentions the 1933 Tripoli Grand Prix? Oh, sorry. I just did!

[Roger Clark]

Letter in Motor Sport, December 1950:

I was disgusted to see on television, bookmakers prominent at Goodwood. Surely the R.A.C. should take steps to ban such activities. We do not want motor sport commercialised like so many other sports. I WO, Yours, etc., G. BELLA v

The programme for the 1960 T.T. meeting contained the statement:

Where betting takes place, bookmakers in all races will pay first past the post irrespective of objections.

[D-Type]

Don't know about Goodwood but I was at Silverstone for a BRDC (I think) meeting in the 1970s where there was a bookie. There was a race for historic single-seaters (250F Maseratis and suchlike) and odds were duly posted after practice.

Willie Green, driving the Bamford 250F, had trouble in practice so recorded an uncharacteristically high lap time and the odds reflected that, the bookie having done insufficient research. Rumour had it that Willie had put a few quid on himself to win - which he did.

To quote Doug Nye's British GP history regarding the 1937 Donington GP:
 

"The circuit bookies had given long-odds against the 'unknown' Germans, and as the team mechanics and knowing punterts flocked around to collect their winnings they found scattered boardfs and ticket stubs.  The bookies had fled!"

Edited by D-Type, 25 April 2018 - 16:21.

[RCH]

I've often wondered about the bookies at the Donington scenario that Duncan mentions. Would bookies ever be that naïve? I understand that betting took place on a regular basis at both Donington and Brooklands so wouldn't the bookies have learned some vestiges of what was going on. Is it just an urban myth?

[Tim Murray]

In his book Hitler's Grands Prix in England (dreadful title for a well-researched book) Chris Hilton quoted the odds offered by one bookmaker (H Scotland) at the 1937 race, taken from an old photograph:

4 - Caracciola
5 - H. Lang
6 - M. von Brauchitch (sic)
5 - R. Seaman
5 - B. Rosemeyer
10 - H. Műller
10 - Raymond Mays
10 - Earl Howe
10 - A.C. Dobson
10 - B. Bira
12 - A.B. Hyde
14 - A. Powys-Lybbe
12 - R. Hanson
10 - P.N. Whitehead
14 - R.E. Tongue
14 - C.E.C. Martin
12 - P. Maclure
10 - R. Hasse

Thus the odds offered for the German team drivers were generally shorter than for the British, but just not short enough. Apparently a number of the Auto Union mechanics decided 5-1 against Rosemeyer were good odds and invested accordingly. Not all the bookies did a runner. Hilton reckoned that somewhere between three and six of the eight bookmakers present disappeared, leaving their boards standing so no-one realised until it was too late.

They were back at the 1938 race, offering much more sensible odds.

[Charlieman]

I understand that betting took place on a regular basis at both Donington and Brooklands so wouldn't the bookies have learned some vestiges of what was going on. Is it just an urban myth?

Bookies set the odds using mathematical models such that the money coming in on different competitors is greater than the money going out no matter who wins. In the 1930s, they'd have used the totals on betting slips being issued to track potential liability. When bets opened, a handful of punters might have got silly odds which would rapidly become less attractive. A few people might have won a few bob and a few bookies might have taken a small loss on the odds quoted above. I'm presuming that trackside bets were only for a win rather than a place.

[Roger Clark]

In his book Hitler's Grands Prix in England (dreadful title for a well-researched book) Chris Hilton quoted the odds offered by one bookmaker (H Scotland) at the 1937 race, taken from an old photograph:

4 - Caracciola
5 - H. Lang
6 - M. von Brauchitch (sic)
5 - R. Seaman
5 - B. Rosemeyer
10 - H Műller
10 - Raymond Mays
10 - Earl Howe
10 - A.C. Dobson
10 - B. Bira
12 - A.B. Hyde
14 - A. Powys-Lybbe
12 - R. Hanson
10 - P.N. Whitehead
14 - R.E. Tongue
14 - C.E.C. Martin
12 - P. Maclure
10 - R. Hasse

Thus the odds offered for the German team drivers were generally shorter than for the British, but just not short enough. Apparently a number of the Auto Union mechanics decided 5-1 against Rosemeyer were good odds and invested accordingly. Not all the bookies did a runner. Hilton reckoned that somewhere between three and six of the eight bookmakers present disappeared, leaving their boards standing so no-one realised until it was too late.

They were back at the 1938 race, offering much more sensible odds.

I don’t think those odds were unrealistic. Based on form that year, you would expect the winner to be Rosemeyer or one of the Mercedes. Caracciola favourite and Seaman shorter odds than his record suggested because of local knowledge (and possibly Mercedes desire for a local winner) seems right to me. The bookies would make a profit if the money staked on the four most likely winners was approximately equal. Any misguided bets on one of the British drivers would add to those profits.

[GazChed]

What is unrealistic are the odds offered on the local drivers , most of which the bookies could have offered for ten or even a hundred times the prices quoted and still not been over generous - from memory at least two of the British drivers didn't start . One when interviewed couldn't even remember entering ! ( Anthony Powys-Lybbe I think )

[Roger Clark]

That is true but it wouldn’t have made much difference to the bookies.

[GazChed]

Fair comment Roger but as the best of the 'British' contingent , Bira , was over 15 seconds off the fastest time in practise set by von Brauchitsch , I think they could have been a little more generous !

[Tim Murray]

Moving further OT, does anyone know how Antony Powys-Lybbe pronounced his surname? POW-iss LIBB? POW-iss LIBBy? Or, along the lines of Cholmondeley/Chumley, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw etc, something a bit like 'Parsley'?

[Geoff E]

Moving further OT, does anyone know how Antony Powys-Lybbe pronounced his surname? POW-iss LIBB? POW-iss LIBBy? Or, along the lines of Cholmondeley/Chumley, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw etc, something a bit like 'Parsley'?

No idea ... but his son expressed an opinion on the pronunciation of "St John" in this thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.britain/CHZlgKtJJUQ

(You may need to copy and paste the URL)

Edited by Geoff E, 26 April 2018 - 15:07.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks Geoff. Following the link on that page to Tim Powys-Lybbe's genealogy site leads to a portrait of Antony:

http://powys.org/lge.../smalls/1s.html

and his family tree:

http://powys.org/lge...tures/tree.html

[Geoff E]

Thanks Geoff. Following the link on that page to Tim Powys-Lybbe's genealogy site leads to a portrait of Antony:

http://powys.org/lge.../smalls/1s.html

and his family tree:

http://powys.org/lge...tures/tree.html

I didn't see those ... I just saw the biography http://powys.org/pl_...1/ps01_001.html

[robjohn]

As a boy I saw Powys-Lybbe race his Alfa at Dundrod at the beginning of the 1950s. I still have (somewhere) a newspaper photo of him "driving through the mist" to win a handicap race, probably a support race at an Ulster Trophy event.
    I've always thought of his name as being pronounced "Powz-Libby" (or Pauz-Libbi), but I have no authority for that.

    On handicapping in general, in the 1954 Tourist Trophy all cars started together but the Trophy went on the index of performance system to a 745cc DB Panhard, with the Hawthorn-Trintignant Ferrari second, though world sports-car championship points were awarded by the "on the road" method with the Ferrari first.
 

Rob J