So why is that that track with two cornes gets four turns? Or a track with two corners and a kink gets 5 Turns
Thats rally strange. And I would like to know the story behind it.
Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 30 April 2018 - 08:00.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:59
Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 30 April 2018 - 08:00.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:49
Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:16
From 'turn' 16 to 'turn' 1 in Baku the cars are flat out. But they designate turns 17, 18, 19 and 20 in between. Go figure.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 10:41
Err, because the corner has multiple apexes. When there is more than one car on the track, it is unrealistic to turn through 180 or 120 degrees on an oval with a single steering wheel action; the car has to be straightened and steered for the next apex. Even if a car is driving alone, a single steering action with corrections will create a slower line and lap time than addressing multiple apexes.
In recent years, new F1 circuits have not had many (enough?) multiple apex or tightening apex corners. It's one reason why racing has been unexciting. Multiple apexes or flowing track stretches create driver error or challenge the car, setting up interesting racing.
There are many exceptions, of course. The newish circuit at Austin (COTA) shows how to get it right with unusual corners. Old circuits (Brooklands, Monza with banking, AVUS) had 180 degree turns which didn't have more than one apex. The drivers just held on for dear life.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 11:17
Posted 30 April 2018 - 15:32
Err, because the corner has multiple apexes. When there is more than one car on the track, it is unrealistic to turn through 180 or 120 degrees on an oval with a single steering wheel action; the car has to be straightened and steered for the next apex. Even if a car is driving alone, a single steering action with corrections will create a slower line and lap time than addressing multiple apexes.
Edited by king_crud, 30 April 2018 - 15:32.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 15:32
In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever, whereas the 'infield' at the circuit's Shaw's hairpin can just about accommodate a couple of TNF photographers and their Box Brownies. (Hopeful cue for a couple of photos....?!). At Cadwell, racers seem to find many different 'apexes' at Charlies and Park, both of which seem never-ending, whereas The Mountain and The Hairpin are a touch tighter. This has little or nothing to do with your original post BBLF but I believe it's good to talk.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 17:36
Edited by Michael Ferner, 30 April 2018 - 17:38.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 17:45
I'll echo Michael here, I've never once heard of an oval with a dogleg or tri-oval referred to as "turn 5" NASCAR telecast by any chance? If so, pffft, never mind
To make it sound more interesting...
No need to as ovals come in a remarkable variety of radii, banking and configurations. They are hardly all the same.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 18:42
From 'turn' 16 to 'turn' 1 in Baku the cars are flat out. But they designate turns 17, 18, 19 and 20 in between. Go figure.
The FIA do have an odd approach to corner numbering at times. Most peope, I'm sure, would categorise Club corner at Silverstone as one corner - however, in the eyes of the FIA, it is two.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 19:00
When I was young, I thought the turn names must make some logical sense but now I think they were likely determined somewhat arbitrarily.
I've never understood why the wonderful left hander at the end of the Moraine straight at Elkhart Lake was Turn 5 when it is only the 3rd or 4th turn on the track.
Maybe RA Historian can enlighten us.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 19:17
In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever, whereas the 'infield' at the circuit's Shaw's hairpin can just about accommodate a couple of TNF photographers and their Box Brownies. (Hopeful cue for a couple of photos....?!). At Cadwell, racers seem to find many different 'apexes' at Charlies and Park, both of which seem never-ending, whereas The Mountain and The Hairpin are a touch tighter. This has little or nothing to do with your original post BBLF but I believe it's good to talk.
12 out of 10, John. I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park. Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 19:54
The FIA do have an odd approach to corner numbering at times. Most peope, I'm sure, would categorise Club corner at Silverstone as one corner - however, in the eyes of the FIA, it is two.
Do you mean pre-2010, because it's definitely two separate corners now.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 20:08
12 out of 10, John. I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park. Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.
Only tears of joy. Cadwell was still lovely the last time I was there (2016?) although some of the farm buildings have gone. Thrilling to watch in the wooded esses at the top of the Mountain. And at the uphill sweep of 'Turn 1'.
OT apologies.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 21:35
There is a romance to using proper names to identify race circuit corners which the American-seeded, accurate, but crushingly unimaginative, system of Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3 etc can never replace.
We have a problem at Goodwood since Revival was launched in 1998. Some of the participants and - most regrettably - some of the commentators - seemed to have a deficient understanding of the historic circuit's traditional corner names, and what track areas were traditionally (and by usage) encompassed within those names.
And so we have ended-up with that intolerable modern-era abomination which describes the first element of St Mary's ess-bend - i.e. its right-hand entry section - as 'No Name'.
St Mary's in frontline circuit history 1948-1966 comprised to my generation the entire ess-bend section - entry right-hander/exit left-hander. So in reality we have St Mary's 1 leading straight into St Mary's 2. It is a composite twin-apex corner, an ESS-Bend.
But I keep hearing 'No Name' - ugh!!!! And seeing it in print yanks my pucker string even tighter!
This really is one of the very few things which REALLY gets me out of my pram. I don't fully understand the internal chemistry which makes this (of all things) really fire my spark plug - but it does so every single time. Last week I snapped a really gentle, well-meaning, old, old friend's head off when he dropped 'No Name' into a story he was telling us. My furious interruption - for that's what it was - embarrassed him, but almost certainly embarrassed me much more - and I apologised later for my knee-jerk detonation.
But 'No Name'. Grrrrrrr! I absolutely hate it. With a will.
Oh - and there's another - 'The Bomb Hole' at Snetterton. Quite apart from whatever became of the perfectly good 'proper name' for a hole created by a bomb - i.e. 'crater' - well, 'The Bomb Hole'...ugh. Detestable (but not quite as enraging as 'No N***')
DCN (aaah - that feels better...)
Edited by Doug Nye, 30 April 2018 - 21:40.
Posted 30 April 2018 - 21:44
Edited by bradbury west, 30 April 2018 - 21:45.
Posted 01 May 2018 - 02:51
Posted 01 May 2018 - 03:00
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Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:45
12 out of 10, John. I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park. Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.
No you wouldn't. We have lost the old bridge across Hall Bends and gained a new one to cross over to start /finish. It's as lovely as it was when I first went in 1975 and I'm thre for HSCC in 2 weeks . MSV actually look after it far better than MCD ever did..
Posted 01 May 2018 - 07:38
Oh - and there's another - 'The Bomb Hole' at Snetterton. Quite apart from whatever became of the perfectly good 'proper name' for a hole created by a bomb - i.e. 'crater' - well, 'The Bomb Hole'...ugh. Detestable (but not quite as enraging as 'No N***')
DCN (aaah - that feels better...)
Bomb Hole isn't referring to a crater. It's referring to the "bomb dump", the ammunition store, of the airfield.
Posted 01 May 2018 - 08:05
Correct, no bomb ever fell on RAF Snetterton Heath.
The corner was un-named after the circuit was shortened in 1974. It was previously the right hand part of the old Esses. Once shortened, the track had a new Esses, as in use today. This right hander was then named by the bikers, some often fell here and referred to it as the 'Bum hole', it was a PC decision by the commentators, circuit staff to call it the Bomb Hole instead.
Posted 01 May 2018 - 08:09
I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.
I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track.
I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!
Posted 01 May 2018 - 13:28
I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.
I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track.
I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!
And of course the Gasworks corner was also renamed.
Coming back to the original topic, I'll look at an old picture and say "That's Eau Rouge at Spa" or whatever, but I can never bring myself to say "That's Turn #5 at Tilkedom #3". Maybe it's an age thing?
Edited by D-Type, 01 May 2018 - 13:29.
Posted 01 May 2018 - 14:23
I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.
Indeed. This seems to a disease of the data logging age. A couple of years ago I was flagging at Post 25 at Brands Hatch, along the main straight. Having stepped out trackside during the pre race jolly for British GT hangers on, a photographer made the mistake of asking me whether he could leave the circuit at Turn 1. The sanitised reply was something like "There is no turn one at this circuit but you can leave by the ambulance gate at the top of Paddock".
Edited by opplock, 01 May 2018 - 14:23.
Posted 01 May 2018 - 17:44
I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.
I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track.
I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!
Posted 02 May 2018 - 06:35
Not if it's palpable nonsense we don't .... .
Posted 02 May 2018 - 07:26
Not if it's palpable nonsense we don't .... .
Getting angry that people don't name a corner the same as they did when you were young is palpable nonsense.
A rose by any other name and all that.
Posted 02 May 2018 - 07:48
Of course, it's not as though this sport of ours has much heritage is it? So , let's see , if Becketts were renamed Poundshop Turn or Curva di Lesmo were rebranded ' Curva di Dunking Do Nuts' you'd be just fine with that ? My view has nothing to do with my age , incidentally , as change is often just fine , but newer isn't always better.
Posted 02 May 2018 - 07:48
Getting angry that people don't name a corner the same as they did when you were young is palpable nonsense.
A rose by any other name and all that.
Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 May 2018 - 07:49.
Posted 02 May 2018 - 07:59
Of course, it's not as though this sport of ours has much heritage is it? So , let's see , if Becketts were renamed Poundshop Turn or Curva di Lesmo were rebranded ' Curva di Dunking Do Nuts' you'd be just fine with that ? My view has nothing to do with my age , incidentally , as change is often just fine , but newer isn't always better.
I'd probably just go "meh" and get on with my life. Then I'd use whatever name my audience would recognise so they know what corner I'm talking about.
In fact, this has happened at Monza, with the first chicane being renamed the Variante Goodyear for a while, and funnily enough that's the name I learned, even though nobody calls is that anymore.
Posted 02 May 2018 - 14:54
But we all have to accept that things change.
Posted 02 May 2018 - 14:58
oh no, you've said on TNF!
Posted 02 May 2018 - 15:26
If nothing changed, then there would be no nostalgia.
And....checkmate!
Posted 02 May 2018 - 20:37
As several of you have underlined above:
- I hate drivers being reduced to 3 letter abbreviations
- I hate corners' existing names being reduced to numbers
And as a side note: Permanent driver numbers are fine - if only they could be read during a race......
Spa is a good example of misuse of numbering of corners - looking at Wikipedia there seem to be corners in front of the 24-hrs pits and on Kemmel straight, so that the exit of Les Combes is now officially turn number 9! The lap has hardly started!! And Pouhon, now called the Double Left, a double Apex corner, has only one "turn" being allocated!
See http://forums.autosp...53#entry8030673 post 80 for my best understanding of the Spa corner confusion.
Sorry for my rant - back on topic for our experts on ovals .
Posted 02 May 2018 - 21:03
Back to ovals: looking in Peter Higham's International Motor Racing Guide, not one of the 18 'D-shaped' tracks like Daytona gives the 5th turn or 'dogleg' in one of the straights a name or number apart, that is, from Phoenix where it is labelled 'Dgleg'.
Posted 03 May 2018 - 01:33
Then there's Pocono Raceway, which has three numbered turns and three numbered turns only. It also has "WHAT TURN 4?" painted proudly on the Turn 3 wall.
Posted 03 May 2018 - 07:29
But Pocono is a funny place in a somewhat funny area - isn't it?
Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:57
If nothing changed, then there would be no nostalgia.
Although penned by a Roman satirist this does sum up change for those caught up in it:
"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning
to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later
in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing;
and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress
while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."
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Posted 03 May 2018 - 11:43
As several of you have underlined above:
- I hate drivers being reduced to 3 letter abbreviations
Perhaps a gripe you might wish to discuss further on the thread "On what date did F1 die?"
http://forums.autosp...ate-did-f1-die/
Posted 03 May 2018 - 11:59
I don't recall Milwaukee having multiple apexes, it just seems to be turn in once from the front straight and you're on the back straight
Oval racing isn't something which I follow but...
In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever...
I read the history of Mallory Park recently. Loads of drivers and bikers commented that Gerards was a tricky corner because it required a change of line (an apex) to get through quickly.
Posted 03 May 2018 - 15:40
I've remembered reading about Silverstone as a schoolboy. The writer described the corners at the end of the runways as being "double corners" because of the width of the runway or some other similar description that translates as a "double apex"
Posted 03 May 2018 - 19:45
Posted 03 May 2018 - 20:49
Or maybe almost anyone else who's been there can. :-)When I was young, I thought the turn names must make some logical sense but now I think they were likely determined somewhat arbitrarily.
I've never understood why the wonderful left hander at the end of the Moraine straight at Elkhart Lake was Turn 5 when it is only the 3rd or 4th turn on the track.
Maybe RA Historian can enlighten us.
Posted 03 May 2018 - 22:56
Posted 04 May 2018 - 04:47
Posted 04 May 2018 - 17:36
I'll echo Michael here, I've never once heard of an oval with a dogleg or tri-oval referred to as "turn 5" NASCAR telecast by any chance? If so, pffft, never mind
No need to as ovals come in a remarkable variety of radii, banking and configurations. They are hardly all the same.
Wasn't Trenton's dogleg (which actually turned right!) counted as a turn in its own right, making it a total of 5 turns?
Posted 04 May 2018 - 17:52
Wasn't Trenton's dogleg (which actually turned right!) counted as a turn in its own right, making it a total of 5 turns?
Curious - Trenton is the only US oval with a map in Higham's book doesn't feature turn numbers