47 replies to this topic

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Does anybody know why are turns on oval tracks in US divided in two parts. For example. A classic D shaped oval has Turn 1 and Turn 2 (first corner) than straight, than Turn 3 and Turn 4 (second corner) and than a straight with a dogleg sometimes called Turn 5

So why is that that track with two cornes gets four turns? Or a track with two corners and a kink gets 5 Turns

Thats rally strange. And I would like to know the story behind it.

Edited by BiggestBuddyLazierFan, 30 April 2018 - 08:00.

[Bloggsworth]

To make it sound more interesting...

[jcbc3]

From 'turn' 16 to 'turn' 1 in Baku the cars are flat out. But they designate turns 17, 18, 19 and 20 in between. Go figure.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

From 'turn' 16 to 'turn' 1 in Baku the cars are flat out. But they designate turns 17, 18, 19 and 20 in between. Go figure.

I cant figure something that makes no sense.

[Charlieman]

Err, because the corner has multiple apexes. When there is more than one car on the track, it is unrealistic to turn through 180 or 120 degrees on an oval with a single steering wheel action; the car has to be straightened and steered for the next apex. Even if a car is driving alone, a single steering action with corrections will create a slower line and lap time than addressing multiple apexes.

 

In recent years, new F1 circuits have not had many (enough?) multiple apex or tightening apex corners. It's one reason why racing has been unexciting. Multiple apexes or flowing track stretches create driver error or challenge the car, setting up interesting racing.

 

There are many exceptions, of course. The newish circuit at Austin (COTA) shows how to get it right with unusual corners. Old circuits (Brooklands, Monza with banking, AVUS) had 180 degree turns which didn't have more than one apex. The drivers just held on for dear life.

[Collombin]

I would love to know where turn one ended and turn two began at Langhorne - and did that place have multiple apices, just one, or even none?

[king_crud]

Err, because the corner has multiple apexes. When there is more than one car on the track, it is unrealistic to turn through 180 or 120 degrees on an oval with a single steering wheel action; the car has to be straightened and steered for the next apex. Even if a car is driving alone, a single steering action with corrections will create a slower line and lap time than addressing multiple apexes.

I don't recall Milwaukee having multiple apexes, it just seems to be turn in once from the front straight and you're on the back straight

Edited by king_crud, 30 April 2018 - 15:32.

[john winfield]

In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever, whereas the 'infield' at the circuit's Shaw's hairpin can just about accommodate a couple of TNF photographers and their Box Brownies. (Hopeful cue for a couple of photos....?!). At Cadwell, racers seem to find many different 'apexes' at Charlies and Park, both of which seem never-ending, whereas The Mountain and The Hairpin are a touch tighter. This has little or nothing to do with your original post BBLF but I believe it's good to talk.  

[Michael Ferner]

I think it's probably just tradition, and likely started with the big Indianapolis oval where there are, indeed, four distinguishable turns. Most smaller, and some of the bigger ovals do, in fact, have only two turns, but the exit of the first one into the backstretch is invariably called Turn 2, and the exit from the last one into the homestretch Turn 4 - even at Langhorne, where there aren't any straights!! Curved straights, or "doglegs" are usually not numbered as turns, at least I don't think I have ever heard or read about that being done, so there is no Turn 5. Most ovals with an irregular form and/or an uneven number of turns still have them numbered from 1 to 4, e.g. Phoenix International, or Michigan International.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 30 April 2018 - 17:38.

[Jim Thurman]

I'll echo Michael here, I've never once heard of an oval with a dogleg or tri-oval referred to as "turn 5"  NASCAR telecast by any chance? If so, pffft, never mind 

 

To make it sound more interesting...

 

No need to as ovals come in a remarkable variety of radii, banking and configurations. They are hardly all the same.

[bsc]

From 'turn' 16 to 'turn' 1 in Baku the cars are flat out. But they designate turns 17, 18, 19 and 20 in between. Go figure.

The FIA do have an odd approach to corner numbering at times. Most peope, I'm sure, would categorise Club corner at Silverstone as one corner - however, in the eyes of the FIA, it is two. 

[Sisyphus]

When I was young, I thought the turn names must make some logical sense but now I think they were likely determined somewhat arbitrarily.

 

I've never understood why the wonderful left hander at the end of the Moraine straight at Elkhart Lake was Turn 5 when it is only the 3rd or 4th turn on the track. 

 

Maybe RA Historian can enlighten us.

[MCS]

In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever, whereas the 'infield' at the circuit's Shaw's hairpin can just about accommodate a couple of TNF photographers and their Box Brownies. (Hopeful cue for a couple of photos....?!). At Cadwell, racers seem to find many different 'apexes' at Charlies and Park, both of which seem never-ending, whereas The Mountain and The Hairpin are a touch tighter. This has little or nothing to do with your original post BBLF but I believe it's good to talk.  

 

12 out of 10, John.  I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park.  Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.

[PayasYouRace]

The FIA do have an odd approach to corner numbering at times. Most peope, I'm sure, would categorise Club corner at Silverstone as one corner - however, in the eyes of the FIA, it is two. 

 

Do you mean pre-2010, because it's definitely two separate corners now.

[john winfield]

12 out of 10, John.  I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park.  Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.

Only tears of joy. Cadwell was still lovely the last time I was there (2016?) although some of the farm buildings have gone. Thrilling to watch in the wooded esses at the top of the Mountain. And at the uphill sweep of 'Turn 1'.

OT apologies.

[Doug Nye]

There is a romance to using proper names to identify race circuit corners which the American-seeded, accurate, but crushingly unimaginative, system of Turn 1, Turn 2, Turn 3 etc can never replace.

 

We have a problem at Goodwood since Revival was launched in 1998.  Some of the participants and - most regrettably - some of the commentators - seemed to have a deficient understanding of the historic circuit's traditional corner names, and what track areas were traditionally (and by usage) encompassed within those names.  

 

And so we have ended-up with that intolerable modern-era abomination which describes the first element of St Mary's ess-bend - i.e. its right-hand entry section - as 'No Name'.  

 

St Mary's in frontline circuit history 1948-1966 comprised to my generation the entire ess-bend section - entry right-hander/exit left-hander.  So in reality we have St Mary's 1 leading straight into St Mary's 2.  It is a composite twin-apex corner, an ESS-Bend.

 

But I keep hearing 'No Name' - ugh!!!!             And seeing it in print yanks my pucker string even tighter!

 

This really is one of the very few things which REALLY gets me out of my pram. I don't fully understand the internal chemistry which makes this (of all things) really fire my spark plug - but it does so every single time.  Last week I snapped a really gentle, well-meaning, old, old friend's head off when he dropped 'No Name' into a story he was telling us.  My furious interruption - for that's what it was - embarrassed him, but almost certainly embarrassed me much more - and I apologised later for my knee-jerk detonation.

 

 But 'No Name'.  Grrrrrrr!  I absolutely hate it.  With a will.

 

Oh - and there's another - 'The Bomb Hole' at Snetterton.  Quite apart from whatever became of the perfectly good 'proper name' for a hole created by a bomb - i.e. 'crater' - well, 'The Bomb Hole'...ugh. Detestable (but not quite as enraging as 'No N***')

 

DCN (aaah - that feels better...)

Edited by Doug Nye, 30 April 2018 - 21:40.

[bradbury west]

With you all the way on the last post, Doug. It drives me mad and I told the original perpetrator so, politely, of course. As I have remonstrated about it on TNF in the past, the problem is they are unaware of the duration of Fordwater. Keep telling them, Doug.
Roger Lund

edit.spelling.

Edited by bradbury west, 30 April 2018 - 21:45.

[Ray Bell]

I have to agree with Doug...

In fact, I chimed in to post that very thing and found his post had done it. So I'll just add my vote.

Continuity is another wonderful thing. Warwick Farm never had a name change in its whole history, we all knew exactly where everything was. Oran Park, on the other hand, changed with sponsorships or even when sponsors decided to change their approach (Energol to BP, for instance) and that's fairly commonplace.

With names, however, you can more readily refer to the first part of a long bend (or embankment) using a different name to the latter part. Especially with sponsorships.

Even discussing racing raises the question of the 'Turn 1, Turn 2' thing because it's common to so many circuits and you can get lost if you're not on the ball.

As for the long bends at Cadwell (they make me drool!), I would reckon there might be three apexes to the first one because of the climbing and then dropping away, allied with the need to get your exit speed up to the maximum because of the ensuing straight. I don't know what you blokes are talking about when you've implied that the place might not be what it once was, but my visit there almost two years ago had me enthralled. The best artificial circuit I have ever seen.

[DavidI]

There's a commentator on Australian TV who insists on referring to the the last corner onto the main straight at Mt Panorama as "The Elbow." It bugs me because of the lack of knowledge, lack of professionalism, and lack of appreciation for the history of the circuit and the motorcycle rider (Jack Forrest) who that corner was named after. I suspect the commentator in question is probably unaware that anything other than V8 Supercars has ever run at that track....

[john aston]

12 out of 10, John.  I loved the hairpin when the house was there / I loved Cadwell Park.  Not even remotely sure I would go back now though - would probably burst into tears.

No you wouldn't. We have lost the old bridge across Hall Bends and gained a new one to cross over to start /finish. It's as lovely as it was when I first went in 1975 and I'm thre for HSCC in 2 weeks . MSV actually look after it far better than MCD ever did..   

[PayasYouRace]

 

Oh - and there's another - 'The Bomb Hole' at Snetterton.  Quite apart from whatever became of the perfectly good 'proper name' for a hole created by a bomb - i.e. 'crater' - well, 'The Bomb Hole'...ugh. Detestable (but not quite as enraging as 'No N***')

 

DCN (aaah - that feels better...)

 

Bomb Hole isn't referring to a crater. It's referring to the "bomb dump", the ammunition store, of the airfield.

[Tim Murray]

My understanding is that the corner name has nothing to do with any real bombs. In the days before the corner had an official name it was often described as a ‘bum hole’ of a corner. The name stuck, but to avoid offending anyone’s sensibilities the name was modified slightly to Bomb Hole:

http://www.snetterto...pet-part-1.aspx

https://www.google.c...ttertoncorners/

Correct, no bomb ever fell on RAF Snetterton Heath.
The corner was un-named after the circuit was shortened in 1974. It was previously the right hand part of the old Esses. Once shortened, the track had a new Esses, as in use today. This right hander was then named by the bikers, some often fell here and referred to it as the 'Bum hole', it was a PC decision by the commentators, circuit staff to call it the Bomb Hole instead.

[Stephen W]

I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.

 

I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track. 

 

I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!

[D-Type]

I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.

 

I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track. 

 

I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!

And of course the Gasworks corner was also renamed.

 

Coming back to the original topic, I'll look at an old picture and say "That's Eau Rouge at Spa" or whatever, but I can never bring myself to say "That's Turn #5 at Tilkedom #3".  Maybe it's an age thing?

Edited by D-Type, 01 May 2018 - 13:29.

[opplock]

I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.

 

 

 

Indeed. This seems to a disease of the data logging age. A couple of years ago I was flagging at Post 25 at Brands Hatch, along the main straight. Having stepped out trackside during the pre race jolly for British GT hangers on, a photographer made the mistake of asking me whether he could leave the circuit at Turn 1. The sanitised reply was something like "There is no turn one at this circuit but you can leave by the ambulance gate at the top of Paddock". 

Edited by opplock, 01 May 2018 - 14:23.

[PayasYouRace]

I do not like the use of Turn1, Turn2, etc, etc, etc as it shows a complete lack of imagination or any appreciation of history.
 
I do note that a lot of corners on modern circuits do not have names. These are the ones where there is a distinct apex and where you can't 'straight line' the track. 
 
I also thoroughly dislike the renaming of corners especially for financial gain. (e.g. Monaco's Station Hairpin became Old Station Hairpin when the station was a building site this I could understand but when it was changed to Loews it lost its history. Now it is called Fairmont! Eventually possibly Travelodge.) This does lead to people continually calling it Loews when referring to races pre-1968 rather than Fairmont which appears to almost have gone in-noticed!

That’ll be an age thing. I’m too young to know it as the Station Hairpin, and I always find myself calling it Loews because that’s what I grew up with. But we all have to accept that things change.

[john aston]

Not if it's palpable nonsense we don't .... .

[PayasYouRace]

Not if it's palpable nonsense we don't .... .

 

Getting angry that people don't name a corner the same as they did when you were young is palpable nonsense.

 

A rose by any other name and all that.

[john aston]

Of course, it's not as though this sport of ours has much heritage is it? So , let's see , if Becketts were renamed Poundshop Turn or Curva di Lesmo were rebranded ' Curva di Dunking Do Nuts' you'd be just fine with that ? My view has nothing to do with my age , incidentally  , as change is often just fine , but newer isn't always better. 

[Michael Ferner]

Getting angry that people don't name a corner the same as they did when you were young is palpable nonsense.

A rose by any other name and all that.

Agreed. Some people need to remember to take their medication before posting...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 May 2018 - 07:49.

[PayasYouRace]

Of course, it's not as though this sport of ours has much heritage is it? So , let's see , if Becketts were renamed Poundshop Turn or Curva di Lesmo were rebranded ' Curva di Dunking Do Nuts' you'd be just fine with that ? My view has nothing to do with my age , incidentally  , as change is often just fine , but newer isn't always better. 

 

I'd probably just go "meh" and get on with my life. Then I'd use whatever name my audience would recognise so they know what corner I'm talking about.

 

In fact, this has happened at Monza, with the first chicane being renamed the Variante Goodyear for a while, and funnily enough that's the name I learned, even though nobody calls is that anymore.

[king_crud]

But we all have to accept that things change.

oh no, you've said on TNF!

[PayasYouRace]

oh no, you've said on TNF!

If nothing changed, then there would be no nostalgia.

[BRG]

If nothing changed, then there would be no nostalgia.

And....checkmate! 

[Cavalier53]

As several of you have underlined above:
- I hate drivers being reduced to 3 letter abbreviations
- I hate corners' existing names being reduced to numbers
And as a side note: Permanent driver numbers are fine - if only they could be read during a race......
 
Spa is a good example of misuse of numbering of corners - looking at Wikipedia there seem to be corners in front of the 24-hrs pits and on Kemmel straight, so that the exit of Les Combes is now officially turn number 9! The lap has hardly started!! And Pouhon, now called the Double Left, a double Apex corner, has only one "turn" being allocated!
See http://forums.autosp...53#entry8030673 post 80 for my best understanding of the Spa corner confusion.

 

Sorry for my rant - back on topic for our experts on ovals .

[D-Type]

Back to ovals: looking in Peter Higham's International Motor Racing Guide, not one of the 18 'D-shaped' tracks like Daytona gives the 5th turn or  'dogleg' in one of the straights a name or number apart, that is, from Phoenix where it is labelled 'Dgleg'.   

[Rob G]

Then there's Pocono Raceway, which has three numbered turns and three numbered turns only. It also has "WHAT TURN 4?" painted proudly on the Turn 3 wall.

[MCS]

But Pocono is a funny place in a somewhat funny area - isn't it?

[Stephen W]

If nothing changed, then there would be no nostalgia.

 

Although penned by a Roman satirist this does sum up change for those caught up in it:

 

"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning
to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later
in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing;
and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress
while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."

[Charlieman]

As several of you have underlined above:
- I hate drivers being reduced to 3 letter abbreviations

Perhaps a gripe you might wish to discuss further on the thread "On what date did F1 die?"

 

http://forums.autosp...ate-did-f1-die/

[Charlieman]

I don't recall Milwaukee having multiple apexes, it just seems to be turn in once from the front straight and you're on the back straight

Oval racing isn't something which I follow but...

 

In England, two relatively low-key circuits, Mallory Park and Cadwell Park, both have long, long bends as well as very tight corners. The pre-chicane Gerards at Mallory goes on forever...

 

I read the history of Mallory Park recently. Loads of drivers and bikers commented that Gerards was a tricky corner because it required a change of line (an apex) to get through quickly.

[D-Type]

I've remembered reading about Silverstone as a schoolboy.  The writer described the corners at the end of the runways as being "double corners" because of the width of the runway or some other similar description that translates as a "double apex"

[PayasYouRace]

I suppose originally those corners would have been double apex because the runways joined at the centre. The first apex being the apex of the entrance taxiway and the runway, the second being the apex of that of the runway and the exit taxiway.

At some point they built low walls around the inside of the corners, which defined their inner boundary as a smooth curve. Later these were replaced by kerbs and eventually the racetrack was rebuilt as a purpose built racetrack.

[E1pix]

When I was young, I thought the turn names must make some logical sense but now I think they were likely determined somewhat arbitrarily.
 
I've never understood why the wonderful left hander at the end of the Moraine straight at Elkhart Lake was Turn 5 when it is only the 3rd or 4th turn on the track. 
 
Maybe RA Historian can enlighten us.

Or maybe almost anyone else who's been there can. :-)

The "turn" numbers at Road America are actually corner worker station numbers. Using them as turn designations stuck a very long time ago.

[Ray Bell]

That's interesting, E1...

But there's such lovely names there; Thunder Valley, Canada Corner.

[E1pix]

My favorite name's the "Hurry Downs."

But Canada Corner is the best turn on the course -- here in the U.S., in my opinion, only superseded by Turn 11, the "Bridge Turn," at Road Atlanta.

[Radoye]

I'll echo Michael here, I've never once heard of an oval with a dogleg or tri-oval referred to as "turn 5"  NASCAR telecast by any chance? If so, pffft, never mind 

 

 

No need to as ovals come in a remarkable variety of radii, banking and configurations. They are hardly all the same.

 

Wasn't Trenton's dogleg (which actually turned right!) counted as a turn in its own right, making it a total of 5 turns?

 

[D-Type]

Wasn't Trenton's dogleg (which actually turned right!) counted as a turn in its own right, making it a total of 5 turns?

 

Curious - Trenton is the only US oval  with a map in Higham's book doesn't feature turn numbers