14 replies to this topic

[TJJohansen]

I was just over on the OldRacingCars website looking over a type I have loved since being a kid, the March 761. I was kinda flabbergasted to see that apart from the eight chassis built in period (1976), an unprecedented eight or nine more (100% increase in numbers) have popped up later. Is this a trend we are about to see more of, and will we see owners try to bulls**t the provenance of said cars? This is something I'm kinda used to from WWII fighter aircraft, where owners proclaim to have a genuine combat warrior, where in fact no part of the modern day plane has been anywhere near the famous pilot it is supposed to have been flown by.

 

T J

[john winfield]

Interesting point TJ. I wonder whether March were a special case, building chassis for the works team, plenty for customers, upgrading models, holding loads of spare parts etc. Do you think the 'eight or nine more' were built from genuine, contemporary parts that sat on the Bicester March HQ shelves?

[Geoff E]

Similar question ten years ago https://forums.autos...l=+continuation

[Automobiliart]

Hi TJ
A few years ago, Jennifer Revson wrote on my blog about the subject of a fake "original" McLaren supposedly driven by her brother Peter.
You can read it here:
http://automobiliart...abel/fake racer

After the story(ies) came out, a few high-end Concours were embarrassed into a stricter review of who they were inviting to their events.
Hopefully, that continues, and the fake ones are weeded out.
Cheers!
Paul 

[Tim Murray]

Jennifer also posted here in support of the ultimately successful campaign led by Tom Schultz (RA Historian) to debunk the fake history claimed for that particular McLaren M8:

Jennifer Revson's response.
First, I would like to thank Tom for expressing his interest, and initiating this topic, in the completely erroneous information regarding the Scott Hughes car, which appears in the current issue of Vintage Motorsport Magazine. And thanks also to the Friends and fans of my brother, Peter, who have so kindly spoken up and supported me about this most distressing distortion of my brother's Can-Am racing history. Scott Hughes has been told by me, three historians, that I know of, and numerous fellow vintage racers that he doesn't have my brother's 1971 championship winning M8F team car. In fact, what Hughes owns is a 1973 Commander Motors built car. Peter's "real" M8F team car is owned by Evert Louwman, and resides in the beautiful Dutch National Motor Museum in The Hague, and hasn't even been in the US since 1985. The fact that Hughes has been very ugly to me personally, when I've approached him about this matter, and willfully spews untruths to my brother's fans, who approach his car thinking they're touching a part of my brother's racing history, and then basks in the glory of it all, is despicable to me. He is the antithesis of everything my brother stood for in life, and I'm not going to sit back and allow him to blatantly disrespect Peter like this. I've written a very detailed letter to Randy Riggs, editor of Vintage Motorsport, asking for a correction in the next issue, and have received a reply that he would. This year marks the 40th anniversary that Peter won the Can-Am championship and sat on the pole at Indy. Naturally, I'm very proud of Peter, not only because of his racing ability, but as a man who possessed great character, and the best brother a sister could have ever hoped for. Thanks for all your support! Jennifer

The full discussion on the car can be found in this thread, starting at post 20:

’Vintage Motorsport’ magazine

[Automobiliart]

Hi Tim
Thanks for the follow-up response from Jennifer, and the link.
Cheers!
Paul

[Charlieman]

Interesting point TJ. I wonder whether March were a special case, building chassis for the works team, plenty for customers, upgrading models, holding loads of spare parts etc. Do you think the 'eight or nine more' were built from genuine, contemporary parts that sat on the Bicester March HQ shelves?

The March 761 was a strong performer for some of the 1976 season but according to contemporary reports it tended to wear out the tyres produced by Goodyear later on that year. This is not a problem in historic racing, of course.

 

I can believe that March held a stock of spares for the 761 a few years after 1976 given that a few customers still used the model or its sister models. I can believe that there were a few bent chassis for the 761 collecting cobwebs in lockup garages because the economic value (at the time) was negligible. I can't believe that resurrected bent chassis account for more than one or two recreations.

 

One car that interests me is chassis 751/3, Vittorio Brambilla's car for most of 1975 including the Austrian GP win. Oldracingcars.com records this car as "written off, United States GP 1975". Brambilla finished that race, on the same lap as the winner. He is reported as having problems in the race but unless I have missed an accident on the slowing down lap, the car was complete when March packed up their kit. The car was raced hard that year and I can see why it may have been seen as the "most worn out" of the 751s.

 

Another interesting car is 761/7, built for Willams Grand Prix Engineering for Patrick Neve to race in 1977. This is the car which allegedly had a layer of orange paint on the monocoque which allegedly made Williams believe that it was a second hand car.

 

I'd like to know what happened to 751/3, the first works March to win a WDC GP. And whether any of it was used for 761/7, the first car raced by Williams Grand Prix Engineering.

[Tim Murray]

Brambilla had had a nasty accident during Friday practice for that US GP which had left the car, according to Pete Lyons in Autosport, ‘very badly crumpled’. He went on to write:

Indeed, under normal circumstances the car would have been written off and a new tub ordered, but with the enthusiasm of a team backing a driver who is going well the March lads stuck themselves into the two-day chore of putting some order into the mechanical chaos. After all, it wasn’t the first time they’d done it this year ...

Vittorio therefore used Stuck’s car on the Saturday. The repaired car was ready for him to try in the warm-up session on the Sunday. He described the handling as ‘interesting’ but chose to race it as it had a good engine.

More damage befell the car during the race as it got clobbered when Vitt overtook Wilson Fittipaldi. Thus I’m guessing that although it made it to the end of the race, it was then considered unfit for further service. I’m sure Allen can confirm.

[Henk Vasmel]

Another interesting car is 761/7, built for Willams Grand Prix Engineering for Patrick Neve to race in 1977. This is the car which allegedly had a layer of orange paint on the monocoque which allegedly made Williams believe that it was a second hand car.

 

I'd like to know what happened to 751/3, the first works March to win a WDC GP. And whether any of it was used for 761/7, the first car raced by Williams Grand Prix Engineering.

The story of the March 741/751/761/761B/2-4-0 family is very convoluted with many changes in Identity, new tubs with old names etc. I could try to make a short overview from my database, but I have no guarantee that it is the complete truth.

 

For 751-3 after Watkins Glen, I have the remark: 751-3 severely damaged in practice! and cannibalised into '76 cars

 

For 761-7A (used only once) I have this: This car later turned out to have a '74 chassis (possibly a 742)

All other races then with 761-7A2 (no remark about whether it is a new or a pre-used tub).

[Charlieman]

Thanks for that information, Tim and Henk. The Motor Sport magazine report by Alan Henry records that the chassis was worked on at a nearby aircraft workshop to repair it for the race. The practice accident as described by AH sounds pretty hard.

[Peter Morley]

Frank Williams would have known that 761-7 wasn't new but he might not have told the sponsors that...

 

The factory build sheet for 761-7 (which I used to own) says:

 

761-7

D.F.V.

white/red (Belle view beer)  (note: their spelling mistake)

Monocoque - updated 751 - no number

Gearbox -

Frank Williams (for Patrick Neve)

 

collected w/e 15 april 1977

manufactured from as many second hand components as possible!

 

April 1978 - owned by Jorg Zaborowski.

[chr1s]

The original Williams chassis was re-built by March to 1976 spec, albeit around the old front and rear bulk heads, (hence no number) after it was destroyed in testing prior to the 1977 Belgian Grand Prix.

Edited by chr1s, 23 June 2018 - 08:08.

[Peter Morley]

The original Williams chassis was re-built by March to 1976 spec, albeit around the old front and rear bulk heads, (hence no number) after it was destroyed in testing prior to the 1977 Belgian Grand Prix.

 

Do you mean it was rebuilt around the bulkheads after the Belgian GP testing accident (which would be the "2nd Williams chassis").

Or was it originally (e.g. the chassis damaged in the testing accident) built using the 751 bulkheads - which might then have been replaced with 761 items for the 2nd version?

 

I assumed the build sheet referred to the first build, in which case the 751 tub would have had a number at some time but they might have re-used (e.g. rebuilt) that 751 number previously hence the tub having no number? 

Of course Frank would have wanted a new chassis number to show the sponsors that they were buying (or at least paying for) a brand new car...

[chr1s]

Do you mean it was rebuilt around the bulkheads after the Belgian GP testing accident (which would be the "2nd Williams chassis").

Or was it originally (e.g. the chassis damaged in the testing accident) built using the 751 bulkheads - which might then have been replaced with 761 items for the 2nd version?

 

I assumed the build sheet referred to the first build, in which case the 751 tub would have had a number at some time but they might have re-used (e.g. rebuilt) that 751 number previously hence the tub having no number? 

Of course Frank would have wanted a new chassis number to show the sponsors that they were buying (or at least paying for) a brand new car...

 

Yes it had to be re-built very quickly (over a weekend) after the Belgian GP testing accident,  but retained the existing bulk heads. I think your right about the build sheet referring to the original chassis, I remember reading somewhere that Frank described it as clinker built!  The point I was trying to make was that the "1st chassis ", whatever it started out as, didn't last that long and effectively became a bona fide 761.

[chr1s]

Re reading the period race rep

 

 

 

For 761-7A (used only once) I have this: This car later turned out to have a '74 chassis (possibly a 742

All other races then with 761-7A2 (no remark about whether it is a new or a pre-used tub).

 

By the time of the 1977 Belgian Grand Prix it was effectively a new tub, 761- 7A2