So why isn't the Champcar/ Indy championship ever factored into it? The 500 was part of those championships. I only ever heard of the triple crown being three races. Not two races and a championship Kinda smacks of F1 bias there
The 500 (and Le Mans for that matter) have always dwarfed their respective championships in importance. On the other hand, what's so special about Monaco apart from its uniqueness? Why not the Italian GP for example? Or Bahrain?
OK, maybe not Bahrain.
But anyway, as a kid I only ever heard it in association with WDC and was confused by the recent references to Monaco. Then the very recent TNF thread tracing the origins put any small doubts I might have had to bed.
So why isn't the Champcar/ Indy championship ever factored into it? The 500 was part of those championships. Why no Sportscar or endurance championships? I only ever heard of the triple crown being three races. Not two races and a championship Kinda smacks of F1 bias there
It's supposed to be the three most prestigious races in the world, the triple crown of races
It isn't, though. The Indy 500 is bigger than the championship it belongs too, and so is the Le Mans 24 hour race. The Monaco Grand Prix isn't.
What I found convincing about the TNF thread were not arguments, because we can all have opinions, but recollections from historians knowledgeable about the Graham Hill era of how it was defined then (and before).
multiple race winner in F1 within a sniff of the WDC. I get you don't like the guy but overrated is laughable
EDIT: missed the bit about other categories....
Overrated doesn't mean he was bad, just that he got more hype surrounding him than what was worth. We will never know how well he would have performed against a stronger team mate in that Williams. And also, when he joined McLaren, he was never a threat to Kimi.
Montoya fulfilled his potential. I think what we saw was pretty much the maximum. As entertaining as he was, he was too preoccupied (obsessed?) with Schumacher M than he was on bettering himself. Actually, he probably should have paid more attention to beating his team-mate Ralf Schumacher consistently.....Ralf was the less spectacular of the two but delivered around the same results. And pretty much nobody rated Ralf (which was unfair IMO).
I think you are right on that point. Since Michael was the benchmark it's no wonder that JPM wanted to beat him. But it became like an obssesion I felt at the time. In a way he was trying to prove he was the alpha dog in the field.
Then we have the "weak minded European racers" quote that he was claiming before even starting in F1. Funny enough he said the same in a recent interview but conceded that MS was one of the few that wasn't mentally weak...(in the same interview he is saying that Lewis is weak mentally when things don't go his way, hmm)
It isn't, though. The Indy 500 is bigger than the championship it belongs too, and so is the Le Mans 24 hour race. The Monaco Grand Prix isn't.
What I found convincing about the TNF thread were not arguments, because we can all have opinions, but recollections from historians knowledgeable about the Graham Hill era of how it was defined then (and before).
Learn something new every day! The press, or who ever , has sure done a good job of changing the definition that's for sure!
I guess on the face of it it would seem more natural for it to be 3 races, which combined with Graham's domination of Monaco made it easy for a switch to occur. But hey, it's nothing official anyway, so nothing to stop anyone making their own up - just don't claim it as the rightful one!
The only problem with this "correct" definition is that JV will now come out of the wood work to start sniffing around for top LeMans drives so he can try and win the triple crown now that he too probably has been taught the true definition!
The "triple crown" was something invented by Mario Andretti, if memory serves....Mario was the first to speak of trying to emulate Graham Hill in winning the F1 championship, Le Mans and Indy.
There was a time when I thought JPM might do just that....not a totally wasted talent because he has achieved a lot....but he didn't achieve all he could have.
The only problem with this "correct" definition is that JV will now come out of the wood work to start sniffing around for top LeMans drives so he can try and win the triple crown now that he too probably has been taught the true definition!
There is no true definition of such thing as a triple crown, as it doesn´t really exist - or at least not more then e.g. the le patron-trifecta, which is winning the French Grand Prix, Roland Garros and the Tour de France...at least in my own imagination....
... They had very different strengths and weaknesses so often on the days Ralf struggled a bit JPM was right on it and vice versa. Any grumbling from Patrick Head and co in hindsight is just making excuses.
Now if I were Patrick Head I'd bellow this at you, but I'm not so I'll write quietly. I think you've just made exactly the same point he was making. After Jones, Mansell et al, he expected a driver to be on top form every time. I don't think there's any denying that, good as they both were, Ralf's and Juan Pablo's weakest area was their lack of relentless consistency.
It would be interesting to see him in the other McLaren during the Senna years for a mano-e-mano nuclear war between them, with less of the PR rubbish of modern times.
But he just didn't have the mindset of a Michael Schumacher to dedicate himself to excellence. He is of the Ronnie o' Sullivan, Nick Kyrgios or Paul Gascoigne mode of sportsman who loves the fun and flairy part of competition, whereas the Hendrys, Federers and Schumachers have a dedication and mental discipline towards all the 'boring' parts of the sport to ensure their performances are the utmost extraction of their full potential. This means Montoya wasn't good enough to be top level in F1, at least in the modern era. The '70s-'80s, who knows.
That's an interesting fact and I agree. I wonder if Montoya and Maldonado swapped eras with each other, if we'd have noticed any difference?
Have to say, I never thought I would see Juan Pablo Montoya and Nick Kyrgios compared to each other in the same sentence. Or Ronnie O'Sullivan and Paul Gascoigne for the matter. So props for that
FWIW I loved Montoya, driving for Williams (my favourite team at the time) so was disappointed when he left them to go to Mclaren. Was devastated though when he left F1 to go to Nascar. As someone previously mentioned, Red Bull possibly could've been a better fit for him - though if he got offended by what Williams or Mclaren said to him then I couldn't see him putting up with Marko for very long.
He could've - and should've - had one WDC at least...
I read somewhere, probably autosport, that Williams team had a big painting done for one of their old crew (John something...?), who was retiring or leaving and the whole team signed it with best wishes etc. Juan wrote "**** off John" as a joke. Well, it made me chuckle, cos I'm childish, but the reporter suggested that the team didn't appreciate his humour at all and were really quite upset with him about it.
So I guess we can compare him with Noel Gallagher too while we're at it..
Imagine how good he would have been if that cameraman didn't break his f***ing head?!!??!
My avatar says it all - I am a MASSIVE fan.
He was screwed out the 03 title by .. a number of F(i)Actors which was a travesty.
Raw pace wise, right up there. Complete racer that was needed for F1 - maybe not at times. Once he tired of the F1 circus it was over pretty quickly for him. However, some of that was his own fault.
He wasn’t even doing that badly in 2006, but clearly the way McLaren works didn’t suit him.
Unfortunately, I can't agree. He seemed lost and slow in 2006. He explained in the interview for mclaren.com:
Quote
The team had an option on me in December 2005, for 2007, and they didn’t take it – they said they wanted to wait a little bit more. We knew Fernando was coming, and we knew Kimi was going. You have an option on me, and you’re saying you want to take a little bit more time? I was more of the theory you either want me, or you don’t. If I’m not worth enough to be there, then I might as well do something else. In my mind from that point on it didn’t really matter.
I think the consensus that seems to be forming in the thread pretty much sums up JPMs short time in F1. All I've really got to add is; thank god he showed up when he did. Juan Pablo was the only reason I didn't completely lose interest in the sport during the Schumacher years.
He had balls. When he passed Schumi on the outside of bus top chicane, didn't flinch or backdown. A lot of drivers would be intimidated when they see that red car and that red helmet during those years. Not JPM.
I will tell you one thing, Montoya was more talented and a far better race car driver than JV, he just had some bad luck. Some his own doing and some not his own doing. He could have easily been a WDC
Actually I find Montoya and J.Villeneuve pretty similar, in F1 terms. Both had a couple of seasons in which they seemed pretty good - not "absolute-best-good", but close enough. But they couldn't keep up that intensity for whatever reason and declined.
I watched Montoya in F3000 and knew straight away he was going to be a beast. I was a big fan of his in F3000 as his personality was already clear. In F1, he was formidable and I would argue Michael's biggest threat in the early 2000s. Faster than Kimi, even more gritty than Alonso but without the work ethic of the latter meant he never quite got there. Bridesmaid.
As a long time fan of JPM I have found some interesting stories over the years.
Christian Horner was in F3000 at the same time as JPM and he has said in several interviews that Montoya ended his F3000 career after watching him in pre season practice going into T1 completely on the edge and realized he could never commit to a corner the way he did as his self preservation instinct would prevent him from doing so. Then at Red Bull he was interested in hiring him, specially at the insistence of Adrian Newey who was a big fan of his after his days at McLaren. Here's the bit from the interview:
Newey and a lot of the McLaren engineers (Phil Prew amongst them, who now is at Mercedes) were very impressed by him so they clearly were seeing something we didn't in the Raikkonen vs Montoya years. Montoya has repeatedly said in interviews that he hated the way the car drove and only towards the end of 2005 they started making it better for him, even developing a whole new suspension for his car. Raikkonen's fans are quick to say Montoya was trashed by Raikkonen in 2005 (and he was) but never cease to make up excuses when the car didn't suit Kimi (half of his career basically).
Zanardi talked a bit about him in his book "My Sweetest Victory" when he was bound for F1 and JPM, who was a Williams test driver, was about to come to CART so they did some testing together in Europe so Montoya could help him get up to speed with the Williams. He recalls that he and Chip Gannassi were very surprised with Montoya's speed and how happy he was when Montoya eventually beat Ralf in F1 years later. Zanardi had no love for Ralf, who he recalls "as fast as he was unpleasant". Ralf seems to have been a lot faster than what most people give him credit for (in his earlier years). Juan Pablo himself has said that he was crazy fast.
Jonathan Williams, son of Frank, said in an interview with Peter Windsor about how impressed they were with him climbing up the European open wheel ladder. He mentioned that he still is one of his father's favorite drivers and they still talk. Interview:
Here is a very interesting interview with Maurice Hamilton. A lot of little gems in that one, including the time he and other up and coming drivers (like McNish) did a private testing with Jackie Stewart. Very good read fan or not:
Then we have the "weak minded European racers" quote that he was claiming before even starting in F1. Funny enough he said the same in a recent interview but conceded that MS was one of the few that wasn't mentally weak...(in the same interview he is saying that Lewis is weak mentally when things don't go his way, hmm)
Interesting claim, which makes you wonder, who is he comparing that to? American drivers are mentally stronger? I have my doubts, to say the least.
A driver with a talent comparable to any of his peers, exciting but unlucky to be paired with the slightly underrated Ralf (which now gets used to dirt on Juan excellent 2003 for instance), and then McLaren as an environment was just not for him.
Disagree with the JV comparisons. The Canadian was performing on a high level basically only in the nineties, he was already a shadow of himself in 2003 and his post F1 career is nothing to write home about. Otoh, JPM *still* is performing on a high level, and I am not sure if people appreciate his versability quite enough, especially seeing just how difficult NASCAR Sprint Cup is to excel at. I think JPM and Allmendinger must be the only drivers without an "oval" upbringing to win a Cup race?
About his McLaren days - I think Ron really disliked him - after his 3 wins, the most ITV guys got from him was "A great drive from Juan Pablo" and the next sentence was always about how great Raikkonen's race was. He never went to collect trophy on the podium when Montoya won - Newey was on the podium when Montoya won British GP, Whitmarsh in Monza, Haug in Brazil. But every time that Kimi won thr race, Ron was on the podium with him (except in Belgium, where for some reason no McLaren representative showed up, so Raikkonen had to take both trophies).
Maybe he didn't like the fact that he missed 3 races with a broken shoulder that he got riding motorbikes and McLaren had to lie with a straight face to cover for his unprofessionalism. Oh how I enjoyed that at the time...
Overrated (which doesn't mean slow, he was fast and daring just not as fast as some people seem to remember/think) driver particularly by the british (english) press who were looking for someone to take on the hated MS. Kimi showed him up
Montoya fulfilled his potential. I think what we saw was pretty much the maximum. As entertaining as he was, he was too preoccupied (obsessed?) with Schumacher M than he was on bettering himself. Actually, he probably should have paid more attention to beating his team-mate Ralf Schumacher consistently.....Ralf was the less spectacular of the two but delivered around the same results. And pretty much nobody rated Ralf (which was unfair IMO).
Ralf was criminally underrated. He won more races than JPM in the Williams, and outscored him in 2001 with some luck. In the subsequent seasons Ralf got the worse luck, he had two terrible accidents that slowed him down. In the Toyota he was just the shadow of his own self.
Maybe he didn't like the fact that he missed 3 races with a broken shoulder that he got riding motorbikes and McLaren had to lie with a straight face to cover for his unprofessionalism. Oh how I enjoyed that at the time...
Overrated (which doesn't mean slow, he was fast and daring just not as fast as some people seem to remember/think) driver particularly by the british (english) press who were looking for someone to take on the hated MS. Kimi showed him up
Interesting claim, which makes you wonder, who is he comparing that to? American drivers are mentally stronger? I have my doubts, to say the least.
He must mean American drivers, including South Americans but like you I have my doubts about his claims.
He is talking about mind games but that happens all the time in F1 so nothing out of ordinary.
JPM is always entertaining, in both good and bad ways.
I miss him in F1, he was a great talent.
Ralf was criminally underrated. He won more races than JPM in the Williams, and outscored him in 2001 with some luck. In the subsequent seasons Ralf got the worse luck, he had two terrible accidents that slowed him down. In the Toyota he was just the shadow of his own self.
Not sure big brother Michael would have made a difference to Toyota, their whole approach to the sport was wrong and they paid the price the saving grace for Ralf was the money he earned while driving for them!
He must mean American drivers, including South Americans but like you I have my doubts about his claims.
I think he may mean NASCAR drivers, considering his experience. I am inclined to believe him. You must have strong self belief to survive 200 races without a win and still do it, as Clint Bowyer did earlier this year.
I think he may mean NASCAR drivers, considering his experience. I am inclined to believe him. You must have strong self belief to survive 200 races without a win and still do it, as Clint Bowyer did earlier this year.
He was talking about it even before racing in F1 so I doubt he means NASCAR. But who knows...
Devastatingly exciting to watch, without Ferrari and the FIA buggering about with Michelin at the end of 03 I reckon he could have taken it. I was heartbroken to see him go but he would never have survived F1's cheese tyre period, driving to a delta was never his thing.
I don't understand how you can say that considering his success in American racing. Oval racing is racing to a delta to a huge degree. Especially the Indy 500 is surviving 150 laps while eeking out the fuel mileage before attacking in the final stint.
FYI, Montoya is also a sportscar ace, again a discipline in which consistent pace over outright pace is required.
Maybe he didn't like the fact that he missed 3 races with a broken shoulder that he got riding motorbikes and McLaren had to lie with a straight face to cover for his unprofessionalism. Oh how I enjoyed that at the time...
Overrated (which doesn't mean slow, he was fast and daring just not as fast as some people seem to remember/think) driver particularly by the british (english) press who were looking for someone to take on the hated MS. Kimi showed him up
Before this gets out of hand, it was 2 races. Bahrain and Imola.
I first heard of JPM in his Barber Saab days in the US, but didn't pay too much attention until he won Pau (I think?) in F3000 and was courted by Williams. After the excitement of Zanardi in Indycars I thought something would be lost when the Italian went back to F1, but boy did JPM step up. He was amazing and showed up the Indycar field.
Once in F1, he was exciting and fast, but never in the league of M Schumacher. He was slightly faster and better than Ralf, but there really wasn't much to choose between them. Ralf won more races during their time together at Williams. JPM not winning the WDC is no great travesty. There have been many with his speed and talent who haven't won it. I liked his personality and enjoyed watching him. JPM was very good but he was not one of the elite talents (Michael, Alonso, Hamilton, etc.).
Monty was almost as exciting to watch as JV in my opinion, always agressive. If you look at the 01 and 02 seasons id think most of the overtakes were split among those two. In different areas of the field however. I cheered for both of them simply because they were the most exciting to watch.
genuinely good driver but not a legend. ralf matched him but then ralf was better than rated. not his fault that michael was his brother.
the whole schumacher v montoya was always bit of nonsense as montoya was not in his league, but he was one of the few who on his day was prepared to take it to michael and win in different machinery. surprised he went nascar way...
Montoya's qualifying pace is an interesting "case" to me. He was paired against Ralph Schumacher and Raikkonen - who are definitely not great qualifiers. Montoya was obviously faster than Ralph overall, but Ralph's career looked to be very promising after 2001. Montoya was perceived as a good qualifer, but Ralph beat him in Q in 2001 11-6, lost 8-9 in 2002 and then beat Montoya again 9-7 in 2003. During his Toyota years (not counting 2007 here, he was totally lost that year), he got destroyed by Trulli in Q, 16-3 in 2005, but ended up 2 points in front at the end of the season. Then in 2006 beat Trulli in Q 11-7. Against Raikkonen, Montoya beat him just 4 times in Q in 2005 and 2 times in 2006 (we all know his 2006 lasted 10 races, and Raikkonen didn't set time in Bahrain Q, so it was 2-7).
