41 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

What was the reason this time, one crashed car off the track shouldnt warrant it.

 

Did they hit the panic button?

[Myrvold]

The SC itself was fine enough, we've seen people go off there in the dry this weekend as well, and with the weather changing that quickly they could arrive on slicks on a fully wet track.

 

Why it lasted as long as it did it a mystery. Should've been done within 2, maybe 3 laps.

[Muppetmad]

Seriously? Sutil was just one crashed car off the track at Suzuka in 2014. In wet/slippery conditions, with a car in the gravel that likely requires a crane to remove it and is in the firing line, a safety car is absolutely the right call.

[Laster]

Not sure what the complaint is. A wet track a car is off in the barrier in a corner where cars often go off in wet conditions, they needed to move it and it was only safe to do under safety car conditions. The safety car wasn’t there for reasons like the track being too wet, it was there for safety of the marshalls. In this case it was completely the right call.

[Mosquito]

They need to safely remove Vettel's car. I was more surprised by how long the SC lasted, it looked like they kept it out until the entire field had bunched up again. Then again, I don't recall any images of Vettel's car being remived, so perhaps it took them that much time.

Given the tricky conditions, location of Vettel's car and risk in that corner (e.g., Erickson in qualifying in perfect conditions), I don't think this was an overreaction.

[chrcol]

Not sure what the complaint is. A wet track a car is off in the barrier in a corner where cars often go off in wet conditions, they needed to move it and it was only safe to do under safety car conditions. The safety car wasn’t there for reasons like the track being too wet, it was there for safety of the marshalls. In this case it was completely the right call.

 

Why would VSC be unsafe (slowed pace, no overtaking), no marshalls needed to go on the track racing area.

Edited by chrcol, 22 July 2018 - 18:16.

[Risil]

If you need a crane, you need a safety car. Perhaps they could've left Vettel's car where it was, but poor Seb still needs to get out of the car and make his way to safety.

[P123]

SC was the sensible choice. It was wet, cars were on slicks and a tractor was out recovering a car.

[chrcol]

If you need a crane, you need a safety car. Perhaps they could've left Vettel's car where it was, but poor Seb still needs to get out of the car and make his way to safety.

 I have watched dozens of races where a crane has been used and no SC. IS the crane = SC a new rule?

Edited by chrcol, 22 July 2018 - 18:17.

[Joseki]

Are people gonna meltdown every single time there's a SC and drops of rain?

 

And let's not forget that the last time we had a crane on a wet track without a SC a driver died.

Edited by Joseki, 22 July 2018 - 18:19.

[Heyli]

 I have watched dozens of races where a crane has been used and no SC. IS the crane = SC a new rule?

Depends on the location I guess.

[noikeee]

Should at very least be a VSC to fetch a car. That was what we learnt with Bianchi.

[sportyskells]

Why do people moan when there a SC? in this case no issues with the SC and have you forgot the reason is the "lapped cars may overtake" rule, not the weather fault this time around

[Atreiu]

What was the reason this time, one crashed car off the track shouldnt warrant it.

 

Did they hit the panic button?

 

They couldn't risk others crashing into Vettel's car. So Vettel's car being stranded was a problem and getting it safely removed was another as well.

[f1paul]

Stupid innit. Why didn't they put the red flag out??????

 

 

[Risil]

I have watched dozens of races where a crane has been used and no SC. IS the crane = SC a new rule?

 

I don't make the rules, or apply them, so if you've seen lots of cranes on a live track, then it's probably not the rule. However I think this should be the rule and I certainly don't have a problem with it being applied.

[chrcol]

Having now watched the race, I think the length of time the SC was out for was they were waiting for dry conditions to return, so yeah I think it was pulled out because it was wet rather than because vettel crashed.  I think if it was dry conditions and vettel crash in same spot it would either be double yellows or VSC.

 

Race control seems to have a panic attack when water falls.

 

The reason I am not happy is that the best F1 racing clearly happens in wet conditions and we keep getting robbed of it in the last several years.

 

Bianchi was an isolated incident rather than a norm.

Edited by chrcol, 23 July 2018 - 09:09.

[chrcol]

I don't make the rules, or apply them, so if you've seen lots of cranes on a live track, then it's probably not the rule. However I think this should be the rule and I certainly don't have a problem with it being applied.

 

Yes I have seen it dozens of times, cranes been used to pick up cars with racing going on, I have even seen racing at monaco with a car dangling on a crane above the track, and it wasnt SC.

 

If we had a SC every time a crane type vehicle was used to recover a car the SC rate would probably be doubled or tripled.

[Jon83]

There would have been a SC even without the wet conditions.

[johnmhinds]

Safety car was out because the marshals were using a big green tractor to remove Vettels car.

And it stayed out so long after that because it took two or three laps for the field catch up to the safety car and unlap themselves, some of them pitting for tyres made that process take even longer than normal.

[Henrik B]

Bianchi was an isolated incident rather than a norm.

 

No it wasn't. When one car go off in the wet, it's very likely other cars will go off in the exact same spot. There were several incidents before Bianchi where people should have used a bit of imagination and realize what could have happened. We had seen incidents at Nurburgring and Interlagos for example.

 

I have no issue with upgrading a double yellow or VSC in the dry to a SC in the wet because of the added risk.

[Arundo]

Safety car deployment was reasonable due to the corner and the slippery conditions, we dont want cars to slide into marshalls. But yes the length of the safety car was too long in my opinion. No need to wait until the track gets better, thats part of racing.

[pacificquay]

Yes I have seen it dozens of times, cranes been used to pick up cars with racing going on, I have even seen racing at monaco with a car dangling on a crane above the track, and it wasnt SC.
 
If we had a SC every time a crane type vehicle was used to recover a car the SC rate would probably be doubled or tripled.

There’s a difference between cranes lifting from behind a barrier and cranes which are essentially tractor type vehicles in run off areas

[Gareth]

There would have been a SC even without the wet conditions.

I think they would have used the VSC if it was dry.

 

But I agree with you that, given the position of Seb's car, no way they were recovering it just under yellows.

[Muppetmad]

Bianchi was an isolated incident rather than a norm.

Good. We'll keep it that way by learning the lessons from his tragic death, rather than repeating the same mistakes. The procedure followed in Germany has been the norm since Bianchi's accident, and it is absolutely correct that it is now the norm. Bianchi was not mere collateral damage you can wave away through a rhetorical sleight of hand.

[Spillage]

Seriously? Sutil was just one crashed car off the track at Suzuka in 2014. In wet/slippery conditions, with a car in the gravel that likely requires a crane to remove it and is in the firing line, a safety car is absolutely the right call.

But isn't that why they introduced the VSC? They definitely needed to neutralise the race - after Bianchi's accident, it's entirely appropriate that they don't take risks when a car's in the wall on a slippery day.

 

I was a bit confused as to why it wasn't a VSC, though. There was no debris on the racing line.

[F1matt]

Bianchi crashed because he failed to slow sufficiently for yellow flags while the marshals risked their lives to move a stricken race car, he wasn't the only one who did this but he was the only one who paid the price with his life. Since then instead of Charlie Whiting or anyone else within the FIA having the balls to stand up to the drivers and dishing out a proper punishment including suspending them for not adhering to the rules we are now in a situation where race control see rain and look to bring out the safety car instead of letting them race. As for the chances of ever seeing a wet start again without a safety car, forget it.

 

 

And we are told these are the best drivers in the world......

[Gareth]

But isn't that why they introduced the VSC? They definitely needed to neutralise the race - after Bianchi's accident, it's entirely appropriate that they don't take risks when a car's in the wall on a slippery day.

 

I was a bit confused as to why it wasn't a VSC, though. There was no debris on the racing line.

Circuit was wet where the accident occurred, but dry elsewhere so most cars were on slicks. if the rain came harder, there would have been a risk of a slick runner going off at the same corner even under VSC speeds.

[Spillage]

Circuit was wet where the accident occurred, but dry elsewhere so most cars were on slicks. if the rain came harder, there would have been a risk of a slick runner going off at the same corner even under VSC speeds.

How much slower is the SC than the VSC, then? I was under the impression - possibly mistakenly - that there was hardly anything in it.

[l12mcg]

How much slower is the SC than the VSC, then? I was under the impression - possibly mistakenly - that there was hardly anything in it.

Safety car speed is at the discretion of the safety car driver I would imagine. The VSC is not, so one is determined by on track conditions and can be slowed to a crawl past an incident and used to guide cars to the correct path as we’ve seen many times over the years.

[Gareth]

How much slower is the SC than the VSC, then? I was under the impression - possibly mistakenly - that there was hardly anything in it.

Good point - I don't know.

 

When forming up behind the SC, it's a max speed set by the ECU and enforced in the same way as a VSC. Whether the FIA set a different (lower, or higher) max speed for an SC vs a VSC, or whether it is the same, I don't know.

 

When lined up behind the SC, I think what l12mcg says is correct.

[lamo]

It was the most nailed on SC all season.

- car wedged in barrier
- potential barrier repair required
- tractor required to drive into gravel
- track half wet / half dry
- entire field on slicks on a damp track

The potential for another car to follow Vettel in was very high, SC was a no brainer

Edited by lamo, 23 July 2018 - 12:28.

[JeePee]

How much slower is the SC than the VSC, then? I was under the impression - possibly mistakenly - that there was hardly anything in it.

Well, the SC is a bit slower, because the field drives under VSC speeds but still bunches up behind the SC. Although in Hockenheim it did take some time for the #5 to get on the back of Verstappen

[lamo]

Yes I have seen it dozens of times, cranes been used to pick up cars with racing going on, I have even seen racing at monaco with a car dangling on a crane above the track, and it wasnt SC.

If we had a SC every time a crane type vehicle was used to recover a car the SC rate would probably be doubled or tripled.

It was not a crane it was a tractor vehicle on the gravel. The cranes used in Monaco are stationary ones situated behind the barriers. Please find me an instance when a tractor vehicle entered the gravel or track since Japan 2014 when it has been wet conditions.

Edited by lamo, 23 July 2018 - 12:31.

[Tsarwash]

I agree that a safety car is necessary if there is a tractor on track in the wet, but I'm not convinced that they couldn't just leave his car there for the rest of the race. It's a slow corner. 

Saying that there was a potential barrier repair needed, did you actually look at how slowly he hit the advertising sheet ? I'm guessing that he was going around 4 mph when he actually made contact. I doubt that any bits of the nose cone were broken off. 

[Dratini]

Just ask yourself what we'd be saying if there was no safety car and someone crashed into Vettel's car, or tragically, a marshal.

[jee]

Wasn't safety car only required when it was needed to create a gap between cars for the marshalls to work ON the track? Vettel was off the track, FCY would have been easily sufficient.

[Tsarwash]

Just ask yourself what we'd be saying if there was no safety car and someone crashed into Vettel's car, or tragically, a marshal.

If a decision had been made to leave Vettel's car where it was, then there would be no need for any marshals to be on the live track. Vettel is perfectly able to get off the circuit without somebody holding his hand. I think another car crashing into Vettel's car with enough speed to pose a significant risk was unlikely. If it was a fast corner, then yes, call a VSC or safety and remove the car, but it is a slow corner, no need in my opinion. 

[johnmhinds]

Leaving crashed cars on the track in areas where others cars regularly crash isn’t an option they can take.

Just imagine an accident like Hamilton’s brake failure with another car left by the barrier.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 July 2018 - 15:08.

[Bartonz20let]

Bianchi was an isolated incident rather than a norm.

Stupidest thing I've read on the internet ever. Utterly moronic.

Not sure why there is any issue considering the location of the parked Ferrari and the crane, you only have to see how easily seb skipped across that gravel.

[AlcidioG]

Seriously... whats with this crying about the SC? It was the correct call with a tractor removing Vettel's car.
Or is it because Hamilton ended up winning? Even with no SC he would have won.
There was no way Raikonen and Bottas would have been able to hold him behind on cold (older) softs vs (fresher) ultras.
They were only 1 and 2 seconds in front of him when the SC came out.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather not see another driver die on track.

Edited by AlcidioG, 23 July 2018 - 19:10.

[Dolph]

Bianchi crashed because he failed to slow sufficiently for yellow flags while the marshals risked their lives to move a stricken race car, he wasn't the only one who did this but he was the only one who paid the price with his life. Since then instead of Charlie Whiting or anyone else within the FIA having the balls to stand up to the drivers and dishing out a proper punishment including suspending them for not adhering to the rules we are now in a situation where race control see rain and look to bring out the safety car instead of letting them race. As for the chances of ever seeing a wet start again without a safety car, forget it.


And we are told these are the best drivers in the world......

Not this BS again