95 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

PayasYouRace, on 22 Feb 2019 - 18:31, said:

While I get Formula E's idea of taking racing to cities, I'd like to see a couple more permanent circuits now that the cars are a bit faster. There's some lovely circuits out there that might suit the sill relatively slow FE cars.

 

Yeah sounds fun. I guess all you need is to map out a route on google maps (or other online map of your choice).

I think they can certainly get away with more visits to circuits which sit within city limits. The critera seems to be more that it's close to a city center than that it is a temporary track. Hermanos Rodriguez of course is one of those, but also the likes of Buenos Aires, Portland, Imola and IMS to name a few could also be eligible should FE decide to visit more permanent facilities without diluting the ethos of bringing the racing to the people.

 

Fab on the competition side. Thought a little more and I think the best time for it might be after the Season 6 calendar is revealed... That way there's interest and people wouldn't unwittingly design a circuit that FE thought up simultaneously. I'll put that one on the to do list for now.

[PayasYouRace]

Vielleicht, on 23 Feb 2019 - 15:46, said:

I think they can certainly get away with more visits to circuits which sit within city limits. The critera seems to be more that it's close to a city center than that it is a temporary track. Hermanos Rodriguez of course is one of those, but also the likes of Buenos Aires, Portland, Imola and IMS to name a few could also be eligible should FE decide to visit more permanent facilities without diluting the ethos of bringing the racing to the people.

 

Fab on the competition side. Thought a little more and I think the best time for it might be after the Season 6 calendar is revealed... That way there's interest and people wouldn't unwittingly design a circuit that FE thought up simultaneously. I'll put that one on the to do list for now.

 

I'll be happy for you to start a thread whenever, but the odds of someone picking the same road layout in the same city as FE is pretty small, don't you think?

[Muppetmad]

I think anybody who can design a circuit layout identical to one subsequently used by FE should win the competition immediately!

[Vielleicht]

Both very fair points.

[Anja]

I have a feeling that a lot of entrants would design the circuit in their local, shall we say "not necessarily high enough profile for FE to target", area anyway 

[Vielleicht]

Well written article (I'd say) on the use of the Monaco short track by FE, nicely segueing into the discussion about FE and it's street circuit ethos.

 

https://drivetribe.c...5SCy-59iOrxtU4A

 

So, does FE really need to 'graduate' to 'proper' circuits or is that missing the point entirely?

[PayasYouRace]

Vielleicht, on 13 May 2019 - 09:23, said:

Well written article (I'd say) on the use of the Monaco short track by FE, nicely segueing into the discussion about FE and it's street circuit ethos.

 

https://drivetribe.c...5SCy-59iOrxtU4A

 

So, does FE really need to 'graduate' to 'proper' circuits or is that missing the point entirely?

 

Yet there's still a non-street circuit on the calendar.

 

I think FE could fit in well with some smaller circuits that otherwise can't host top level series. I don't mean things like the Silverstone "national" circuit that hosts BTCC (that's basically what FE does in Mexico City) but things such as Lydden Hill*. I think a nice rural setting would also suit the series' green credentials.

 

*UK examples picked due to my own familiarity. Not saying they have to be those tracks.

[Vielleicht]

PayasYouRace, on 13 May 2019 - 11:54, said:

Yet there's still a non-street circuit on the calendar.

 

I think FE could fit in well with some smaller circuits that otherwise can't host top level series. I don't mean things like the Silverstone "national" circuit that hosts BTCC (that's basically what FE does in Mexico City) but things such as Lydden Hill*. I think a nice rural setting would also suit the series' green credentials.

 

*UK examples picked due to my own familiarity. Not saying they have to be those tracks.

Well, Mexico City is kind of a hybrid I guess and it's very much in the heart of the city itself. It's not a foundation shaking inclusion to the calendar. Somewhere like Lydden Hill is in the Kent countryside so, nice as it may be, is at odds with the concept of FE.

 

The interesting argument made in the article for is that, while there is an assumption from existing race fans that it will 'graduate' to permanant circuits at some point and until then shouldn't be taken so seriously, does that really matter? Is it worth pandering to the existing fans wishes or is Formula E better off continuing to chart its own course and it's own audience? Back in the early days, FE's pursuit of 'a new audince' was considered by many as a pointless endeavour. How does that initial outlook compare with today?

[PayasYouRace]

At some point electric racing is going to have to become more mainstream as we move away from petrol. So FE will either have to expand its horizons a bit or give up its exclusivity on electric single seaters.

[Anja]

As far as I understand it never really was about the principle of racing on street circuits, the priority point is to have the races in cities to be more convenient for the fans and easier to promote. Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez is located within the city so it's a perfect situation.

Edited by Anja, 13 May 2019 - 12:40.

[Ben1445]

It's definitely a rather large leap from Hermanos Rodriguez to Lydden Hill. 

 

What I'd say is that FE is showing that the city centre circuits plan is actually working. It is not like FE has duty to do also race on traditional, permanent more isolated facilities as well. If there's such a big appetite for it, some other existing or yet to be born series will surely occupy that space. If it's more popular at permanent race tracks then said series will surely succeed.

 

But are you going to get more people to go and see race for an FE-like series at Oschersleben than the former Tempelhof Airport in the heart of Berlin? I doubt it. 

Edited by Ben1445, 13 May 2019 - 13:00.

[Vielleicht]

Ben1445, on 13 May 2019 - 12:58, said:

It's definitely a rather large leap from Hermanos Rodriguez to Lydden Hill. 

 

What I'd say is that FE is showing that the city centre circuits plan is actually working. It is not like FE has duty to do also race on traditional, permanent more isolated facilities as well. If there's such a big appetite for it, some other existing or yet to be born series will surely occupy that space. If it's more popular at permanent race tracks then said series will surely succeed.

 

But are you going to get more people to go and see race for an FE-like series at Oschersleben than the former Tempelhof Airport in the heart of Berlin? I doubt it. 

Well yes, but I do kind of get PAYR's point about exclusivity. If they're going to be exclusive about it they could be said to be cutting out the traditional circuits from the new age racing, and it's not like they're all financially sound either.

 

Although they could have electric GTs, Touring Cars, Prototypes in the meantime as they're not covered by exclusivity deal, so maybe there is still no duty to race on them. And said deal only runs to 2029 (or earlier of someone waves enough cash at Agag and the shareholders).

 

Actually, if we get a postition where the exclusivity deal were to cause any issue for motorsport generally then it could be said at that point that FE had become extraordinarily successful.

Edited by Vielleicht, 14 May 2019 - 08:00.

[thegamer23]

Would like to see a return of Long Beach some day. 

Season 1 & 2 races there were pretty great. They could even use the full circuit now, it's just over 3 km. (like Rome) 

Edited by thegamer23, 14 May 2019 - 08:10.

[blackhand2010]

Yeah, if it was up to me I'd like to see them move up to the next stage of circuits, whilst remaining in the city environments.

Think Montreal, Melbourne, and Adelaide F1 circuits. Bigger and longer, but still near enough cities.

I'd suggest the Valencia street circuit, but given how awful that was...

[Ben1445]

Vielleicht, on 14 May 2019 - 07:56, said:

Well yes, but I do kind of get PAYR's point about exclusivity. If they're going to be exclusive about it they could be said to be cutting out the traditional circuits from the new age racing, and it's not like they're all financially sound either.

 

Although they could have electric GTs, Touring Cars, Prototypes in the meantime as they're not covered by exclusivity deal, so maybe there is still no duty to race on them. And said deal only runs to 2029 (or earlier of someone waves enough cash at Agag and the shareholders).

 

Actually, if we get a postition where the exclusivity deal were to cause any issue for motorsport generally then it could be said at that point that FE had become extraordinarily successful.

Well exactly. I doubt the exclusivity deal will be any particular issue unless it gets extended by 10 years or so. If nothing dramatic happens I wouldn't expect EV racing to have any particular threat until the late 20s at the earliest, by which time the deal will nearly be over. So no duty for me for them to expand onto non-city zone tracks within the deal's timeframe. 

 

That's assuming we don't have this massive environmental revolution in the 2020s because of the creeping recognition of the climate emergency which throws everything up in the air. But that's another discussion entirely. In that case though, the exclusivity deal wouldl be a front and centre motorsport issue. 

[Sterzo]

Anja, on 13 May 2019 - 12:40, said:

As far as I understand it never really was about the principle of racing on street circuits, the priority point is to have the races in cities to be more convenient for the fans and easier to promote.

That's my understanding of Agag's reasoning too, and it is, of course, twaddle. I happen to live in London, but for most British racegoers it's much easier to reach (say) Silverstone than to use public transport to an awkward location in an expensive city - which is where FE will be racing.

[RSRally]

Sterzo, on 14 May 2019 - 22:03, said:

That's my understanding of Agag's reasoning too, and it is, of course, twaddle. I happen to live in London, but for most British racegoers it's much easier to reach (say) Silverstone than to use public transport to an awkward location in an expensive city - which is where FE will be racing.

That depends if they're seeking the still relatively small number of hardcore FE fans or a more casual audience comprised of a small percentage of London's 8 million population to fill the grandstands..

[Ben1445]

RSRally, on 15 May 2019 - 04:44, said:

That depends if they're seeking the still relatively small number of hardcore FE fans or a more casual audience comprised of a small percentage of London's 8 million population to fill the grandstands..

I would also still say it's much easier and familiar for the surrounding population to go into London on a train and use the Underground/DLR to get over to the Royal Docks then it is getting public transport to (or even driving to for that matter) an old airfield in the countryside. After all, people regularly go over to the docklands area for fun to see concerts in the O2. 

[RSRally]

Ben1445, on 15 May 2019 - 07:50, said:

I would also still say it's much easier and familiar for the surrounding population to go into London on a train and use the Underground/DLR to get over to the Royal Docks then it is getting public transport to (or even driving to for that matter) an old airfield in the countryside. After all, people regularly go over to the docklands area for fun to see concerts in the O2.

Especially if FE are trying to reach a new audience rather than just recycled F1 fans.

[BRG]

Sterzo, on 14 May 2019 - 22:03, said:

That's my understanding of Agag's reasoning too, and it is, of course, twaddle. I happen to live in London, but for most British racegoers it's much easier to reach (say) Silverstone than to use public transport to an awkward location in an expensive city - which is where FE will be racing.

 

Ben1445, on 15 May 2019 - 07:50, said:

I would also still say it's much easier and familiar for the surrounding population to go into London on a train and use the Underground/DLR to get over to the Royal Docks then it is getting public transport to (or even driving to for that matter) an old airfield in the countryside. After all, people regularly go over to the docklands area for fun to see concerts in the O2. 

It rather depends on your starting point.  As the old jest about the driver asking an Irish chap for directions has it 'Sure and if I was going there, I wouldn't be starting from here'

[Ben1445]

BRG, on 15 May 2019 - 18:31, said:

It rather depends on your starting point.  As the old jest about the driver asking an Irish chap for directions has it 'Sure and if I was going there, I wouldn't be starting from here'

Well, what can I say, you are not wrong. I was thinking the south of England as whole if that helps. 

 

For example, getting to Silverstone by train from the south (assuming a race event is running a shuttle from Milton Keynes) will have you going into London anyway.

Edited by Ben1445, 15 May 2019 - 18:53.

[August]

Would be cool to have some ovals in Formula E. Maybe Martinsville and Bristol.

[Ben1445]

August, on 15 May 2019 - 21:01, said:

Would be cool to have some ovals in Formula E. Maybe Martinsville and Bristol.

I could certainly respect the boldness of taking Formula E deep into NASCAR territory... 

 

But you know what, I would be interested to see how these things would race on a short oval. 

Edited by Ben1445, 15 May 2019 - 22:35.

[SonGoku]

I hope they move quickly to the bigger normal circuits, where you can actually recognise the corners instead of turning left and right in a local car park. The cars will be able to do it sooner than later. Also they should fill the F1 less months, people will always want to watch racing.

[RacingGreen]

Round 1 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 2 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 3 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 4 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 5 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 6 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 7 - anywhere but Berlin

Round 8 - anywhere but Berlin

etc.

 

Maybe 15 or 16 races not in Berlin

 

PS Nothing against the place as a city, but that track is a farce.

Edited by RacingGreen, 15 May 2019 - 21:51.

[Ben1445]

SonGoku, on 15 May 2019 - 21:40, said:

I hope they move quickly to the bigger normal circuits, where you can actually recognise the corners instead of turning left and right in a local car park. The cars will be able to do it sooner than later. Also they should fill the F1 less months, people will always want to watch racing.

To be fair, all race track corners ever were unfamiliar at some point in their existence... 

 

On that note though, I do like how Jack Nicholls refers to corners/areas of track based on the places where they are in the city rather than just T4, T8 etc. For example, when he was saying 'and such and such is going for the overtake into Place Vauban' in Paris, it gave it a nice sense of character. He's been doing it here and there right though from Season 1. 

[PayasYouRace]

I guess it's quite hard to make a modern street circuit look visually distinctive, but then most modern permanent circuits look alike too.

[Ben1445]

I always think a really great street circuit should ideally have a unique recognisable feature, like Long Beach's fountain or Monaco's Grand Hotel Hairpin. Or even that narrow bit in Baku. 

 

Closest FE has got might be Rome. 

[maximilian]

Ben1445, on 15 May 2019 - 22:35, said:

I always think a really great street circuit should ideally have a unique recognisable feature, like Long Beach's fountain or Monaco's Grand Hotel Hairpin. Or even that narrow bit in Baku. 

 

Closest FE has got might be Rome. 

 

True, the display of fascist architecture is hard to miss! 

 

I always felt that Punta d'Este had a lot of charm and character, racing right next to the beach.

[BRG]

August, on 15 May 2019 - 21:01, said:

Would be cool to have some ovals in Formula E. Maybe Martinsville and Bristol.

But think of the regeneration problems.   

 

Ah, problem solved, lets have two chicanes on each straight.  And one in each corner.  That'll fix it.

[Vielleicht]

I've been toying with this idea for... actually the better part of a decade. Becuase I was/still am a massive racing circuit nerd. But I do think it would be fun if they could make a visit to the Norisring work with a layout inspired by the iterations used in the late 1940s and 50s.

 

[Ben1445]

Nice! Like the historical twist. 

[BRG]

Never been a huge fan of the Norisring, but that modification would improve it a lot.  And two hairpins and two chicanes meets the FE track design blueprint.  Let's do it!

Edited by BRG, 19 May 2019 - 19:48.

[Vielleicht]

Here's the 1951 layout, just in case anyone was wondering

 

[ElectricBoogie]

FE in its current state would have huge difficulty making the finish line at Montreal. At least with 45 min + 1 lap.
Just a short time per lap off full throttle, 200W, a bit of life and coast would not do the job. Terrible racing. Gambling on a safety car going way too quick or dead slow all the way.

Two 30 minute races would be nicer. 

I keep repeating until it's reality. Electric racing needs battery swap pitstop. Car can be lighter, more powerful and races longer. All the good stuff.

And that's before you add wider slick tires and real rain tires. Let alone aero that's made to be slippery and high downforce. Ask the Posche peepz about 919 Evo and how that car got to go faster through Eau Rouge AND up the Kemmel Straight than an F1 car. A spec 919 Evo would 40-55kWh swappable battery and AWD would do the trick just fine for electric racing. Ready for 6- and 24 hour races as well. No need to be slower than F2 or LMP1 for that matter. Just slightly shorter stints maybe.

[Ben1445]

ElectricBoogie, on 19 May 2019 - 22:49, said:

FE in its current state would have huge difficulty making the finish line at Montreal. At least with 45 min + 1 lap.
Just a short time per lap off full throttle, 200W, a bit of life and coast would not do the job. Terrible racing. Gambling on a safety car going way too quick or dead slow all the way.

Two 30 minute races would be nicer. 

Circuit Gilles Villeneuve? 

[KinkyMasta]

Maybe I'm mad to say this..

 

I'd like to watch a FE race in Montjuïc.

Edited by KinkyMasta, 20 May 2019 - 13:55.

[Vielleicht]

KinkyMasta, on 20 May 2019 - 13:55, said:

Maybe I'm mad to say this..

I'd like to watch a FE race in Montjuïc.

Not mad at all, I have wanted this from day 1!

Unless we are both mad...

[maximilian]

Vielleicht, on 19 May 2019 - 21:32, said:

Here's the 1951 layout, just in case anyone was wondering

 

 

Why does this remind me of the "FE is like riding a flaccid penis" comment? 

[balage06]

Sterzo, on 14 May 2019 - 22:03, said:

That's my understanding of Agag's reasoning too, and it is, of course, twaddle. I happen to live in London, but for most British racegoers it's much easier to reach (say) Silverstone than to use public transport to an awkward location in an expensive city - which is where FE will be racing.

 

But that's just one side of the truth, the current Formula E would never work on traditional permanent circuits like Spa or Suzuka (as Buemi himself said so for example). They need these twisty street circuits because of efficient battery management and lift and coasting. Long straights and full throttle segments would kill racing in FE, every driver would just turn the power up and down and switch positions without fighting. Smaller tracks like Donington could work obviously, but using low-profile circuits instead of city locations would probably be a mistake...

[Vielleicht]

Thought this would be an interesting thread to revisit in the current situation we now find ourselves in. With the series looking like it will have to make use of permanant facilities if it wants to get racing back underway anytime soon, advancing technology in the series and a changed economic environment meaning cost reductions are a key issue for any business, Agag has floated the idea that the 'street racers' brand that FE has crafted might have to be relaxed:

 

"Just thinking out loud, imagine you make a Gen3 car that is running at 300Km/h [186mph] and it's with a range of one hour, we may think to race maybe at circuits. That reduces the costs in a different direction. I'm not saying we're going to do that, but I'm saying there are different variables in this discussion that we need to consider."

 

With the cars only likely to be getting faster over the next decade and the proposed introduction of fast charging, it does ask the question as to wether race infrastructure may be better served by a permanant (or semi-permanant) facility than the very temporary set ups to date.

 

What kind of circuits could host FE in the future? What modifications might have to be made? What would 'Your Ideal Formula E Calandar' be now?

 

 

[Ben1445]

Bit tricky perhaps as I think the street racing brand is quite well formed, moving to permanent venues would actually change the 'flavour' quite a bit. It was also created by the Agag/the FIA in a top-down fashion which means it doesn't actually have a grassroots heritage to fall back on. However, ideally I think they should keep the races in the format of 'The [City/Venue Name] ePrix' rather than a country to hang onto that particular city centric heritage. 

 

I think I'd also like to see them go to and build up existing smaller venues rather than using the bigger, famous venues like Spa or Monza just to keep some uniqueness to the calendar and help said venues upgrade to incorporate EV charging infrastructure and local renewable power generation. Going to an FE event should be experiencing something high-tech and modern in a compact and intimate environment, which I don't think going to small club tracks with decades old infrastructure or the grand and modern F1 behemoth facilities would really offer.

 

I think it would be really cool to try and swing races at newer club focussed venues like one of the Blister Berg layouts (Östschleife with chicane?), or a once popular circuit that has struggled with annual noise restrictions to be brought 'up to date' and secure its survival.  

 

I think trying to secure a return and long term presence at Long Beach would be fantastic. FE sharing a weekend at the track with other EV racing (say with Pure ETCr or if IMSA adopts a new series using ETCR regulations or creates an EV prototype class that was briefly mentioned a while back) and another weekend the IndyCar GP/ IMSA Weathertech GP... that's something I could feasibly see happening and being popular in CA within the next decade. I also think the Norisring is a good place to get a foothold in as DTM is looking at bit on the ropes (perhaps with the cool concept further up in this thread!). 

 

It's going to be very interesting to see what might happen. 

[Ben1445]

Ben1445, on 19 Apr 2020 - 13:20, said:

I think it would be really cool to try and swing races at newer club focussed venues like one of the Blister Berg layouts (Östschleife with chicane?)

I mean... 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Wind turbines too...

Edited by Ben1445, 19 April 2020 - 13:41.

[Vielleicht]

Ben1445, on 19 Apr 2020 - 13:20, said:

Going to an FE event should be experiencing something high-tech and modern in a compact and intimate environment, which I don't think going to small club tracks with decades old infrastructure or the grand and modern F1 behemoth facilities would really offer.

That actually neatly sums up really neatly why I've been resistant to using permanant tracks in the past.

[Rob29]

Agree 100% there-whole point it is city centre series-repeat of 2014 Buenos Aires and Pute de Este rounds coming up this morning on Free Sports channel

[Ben1445]

Rob29, on 21 Apr 2020 - 07:19, said:

Agree 100% there-whole point it is city centre series-repeat of 2014 Buenos Aires and Pute de Este rounds coming up this morning on Free Sports channel

Thank for the heads up, now having a watch!

Edit: Forgot how much I liked Punte del Este as a circuit.

Edited by Ben1445, 21 April 2020 - 09:19.