14497 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

Kimi is still reigning Ferrari WCC driver, wouldn't have been if the race had ended otherwise. We shall see if he (and Massa) stays in position as long as Mika (and David) did.

 

Gotcha, somehow I thought I was in the McLaren thread. 

[scheivlak]

Last WDC's team mate who was worse then PER this year was Jos Verstappen (#10) in 1994. Back then, Jos DNF'ed in 6 and DNS in another 6 out of 16 races.

Note: Jos was the back up choice. JJ Lehto started as MIchael's team mate, got injured, came back and was soon replaced again.

Edited by scheivlak, 08 December 2024 - 17:50.

[SpaceHorseParty]

Kimi is still reigning Ferrari WCC driver, wouldn't have been if the race had ended otherwise. We shall see if he (and Massa) stays in position as long as Mika (and David) did.

Bottas was driving for Mercedes when they last won the WCC (2021). So, before today, 3 out of the 5 active constructors to have won the WCC had won their most recent one with a Finn in the team. Williams and Red Bull were the two exceptions.

[PayasYouRace]

Last WDC's team mate who was worse then PER this year was Jos Verstappen (#10) in 1994. Back then, Jos DNF'ed in 6 and DNS in another 6 out of 16 races.

You can thank me for working all that out in the other thread.

[Myrvold]

Note: Jos was the back up choice. JJ Lehto started as MIchael's team mate, got injured, came back and was soon replaced again.

 

Lehto was a weird choice. At least for someone who don't know any of the reasons why he was chosen (like me)

[scheivlak]

Lehto was a weird choice. At least for someone who don't know any of the reasons why he was chosen (like me)

He was a very convincing British F3 champion in 1988 way ahead of the likes of Gary Brabham, Damon Hill and Eddie Irvine. Many people expected wonders of him back then but in the end that promise never materialised in F1.

[Risil]

In retrospect Benetton would've been better off sticking with Brundle for 1993 and 1994. But who else in 1993 who was out of contract the following year would've been more promising? Alain Prost aside obviously

That said, they did probably get the slower of the two Sauber drivers from that year.

[NewMrMe]

Answering a couple of points.

 

JJ Lehto was highly rated in the early 90s. It wasn't surprising when Benetton signed him for 1994. The problem was that he broke his neck in an accident in pre-season testing. The injury did for a while cause issues with how he used his hands. His F1 career never recovered from it although he did go on to have a successful sports car career including winning Le Mans.

 

With hindsight Martin Brundle was one of Michael Schumacher's better teammates. The problem was back then nobody knew how good Schumacher was. The other thing to consider is that Brundle had a terrible start to 1992. I have read that Patrese signed to join Benetton for 1993 about the time of the 1992 Monaco GP. The story said that Patrese became aware of Williams talking to Prost early in 1992, but incorrectly assumed it was to replace him and not Mansell. He then instructed his manager to find him another drive. Because of Brundle's poor start to the year, Benetton were open to discussions with Patrese's management.

[PayasYouRace]

I just thought that after Brundle ran Michael relatively close, Flavio just wanted to put lapdogs in the second car from then on.

[Psymon]

Taken from an Autosport post on Facebook:

 

McLaren are the first team in F1 history to have 0 classified DNFs in a season

 

(Yes Lando didn't finish in Austria, but his retirement from the race was close enough to the end that he was still classified in the final standings)

[PlatenGlass]

I just thought that after Brundle ran Michael relatively close, Flavio just wanted to put lapdogs in the second car from then on.

 

I don't think so. Herbert had a good reputation and they brought him in at the end of 1994, presumably to improve results.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think so. Herbert had a good reputation and they brought him in at the end of 1994, presumably to improve results.

 

They then proceeded to give him virtually no support for 1995. "Just there to drive the second car" in his own words.

[HistoryFan]

Biggest gap between world championships. 26 years.

 

Ferrari held the record before with 16 years between 1983 and 1999.

[PlatenGlass]

They then proceeded to give him virtually no support for 1995. "Just there to drive the second car" in his own words.

 

Yeah. I suppose his signing was to give the impression that they wanted a proper two-car team.

[PayasYouRace]

Ferrari held the record before with 16 years between 1983 and 1999.

 

It was 21 years, between their drivers' championships from 1979 and 2000.

[Beri]

Crazy to consider that, disregarding the anomaly that I refer to as Brawn, we do have to go back to 1995 to see Benetton take the Constructors title as a non factory backed team. Williams and McLaren during the 90s were the defacto factory teams for Mercedes and Renault. McLaren winning the Constructors title as a customer team is a huge achievement. And huge doesn't even cover the significance.

[HistoryFan]

It was 21 years, between their drivers' championships from 1979 and 2000.

 

yes but for constructor's championship it was 16 years. Sorry for that, now I think it's clearer.

[Risil]

Taken from an Autosport post on Facebook:

McLaren are the first team in F1 history to have 0 classified DNFs in a season

(Yes Lando didn't finish in Austria, but his retirement from the race was close enough to the end that he was still classified in the final standings)

Wow! I know this is the stats thread but huge achievement for McLaren

[Risil]

Answering a couple of points.

JJ Lehto was highly rated in the early 90s. It wasn't surprising when Benetton signed him for 1994. The problem was that he broke his neck in an accident in pre-season testing. The injury did for a while cause issues with how he used his hands. His F1 career never recovered from it although he did go on to have a successful sports car career including winning Le Mans.

Slightly underwhelming replacement for Dario Franchitti in CART. But a lot of good drivers found the jump to be very difficult, especially when going to a midfield team.

[Myrvold]

He was a very convincing British F3 champion in 1988 way ahead of the likes of Gary Brabham, Damon Hill and Eddie Irvine. Many people expected wonders of him back then but in the end that promise never materialised in F1.

 

1988 and 1994 are some years apart though.

 

In retrospect Benetton would've been better off sticking with Brundle for 1993 and 1994. But who else in 1993 who was out of contract the following year would've been more promising? Alain Prost aside obviously

That said, they did probably get the slower of the two Sauber drivers from that year.

 

JJ Lehto was highly rated in the early 90s. It wasn't surprising when Benetton signed him for 1994. The problem was that he broke his neck in an accident in pre-season testing. The injury did for a while cause issues with how he used his hands. His F1 career never recovered from it although he did go on to have a successful sports car career including winning Le Mans.

 

Based on the very limited packages on a monthly VHS thing in Norway from those years, I'm not of the impression that Lehto was better than Martini in 92 either, and that he wasn't outclassing Pirro in 91?

[Dan333SP]

I'm sure it's happened multiple times before but when was the last time a team finished 4th in the WCC with 4 or more wins? Obviously this season being so long skews this a bit with Merc but it's still interesting to me. Maybe a further refinement of that question is has a team ever finished 4th or lower where each of their drivers had multiple wins before? 

[BertoC]

I'm sure it's happened multiple times before but when was the last time a team finished 4th in the WCC with 4 or more wins? Obviously this season being so long skews this a bit with Merc but it's still interesting to me. Maybe a further refinement of that question is has a team ever finished 4th or lower where each of their drivers had multiple wins before?

I think that never happened. Best I could find is 3 wins, last time being Lotus in 85 with Senna and De Angelis winning. Also impressive was in 74, Lotus and Brabham finished 4th and 5th with 3 wins each, but only one driver winning per team.

[NCB619]

Saw a fun one in Reddit:

Lewis' last race for McLaren in 2012:

• Red Bull's multiple-time world champion spun on the opening lap to recover to 6th.
• Sergio Perez retired on the opening lap
• A British driver wins the race for McLaren
• A Spanish driver takes second for Ferrari
• The second Ferrari drive takes 3rd place

Interesting to note that two years after, was the introduction of a massive regulation change that led to Lewis winning the title with his new team...

[teejay]

Slightly underwhelming replacement for Dario Franchitti in CART. But a lot of good drivers found the jump to be very difficult, especially when going to a midfield team.

 

Yup and Hogan was definitely on the decline at the time. 

[SpaceHorseParty]

When McLaren last won the constructors' title, neither one of their current drivers was born.

[peroa]

Saw a fun one in Reddit:

Lewis' last race for McLaren in 2012:

• Red Bull's multiple-time world champion spun on the opening lap to recover to 6th.
• Sergio Perez retired on the opening lap
• A British driver wins the race for McLaren
• A Spanish driver takes second for Ferrari
• The second Ferrari drive takes 3rd place

Interesting to note that two years after, was the introduction of a massive regulation change that led to Lewis winning the title with his new team...

Welcome to the matrix

[Beri]

Saw a fun one in Reddit:

Lewis' last race for McLaren in 2012:

• Red Bull's multiple-time world champion spun on the opening lap to recover to 6th.
• Sergio Perez retired on the opening lap
• A British driver wins the race for McLaren
• A Spanish driver takes second for Ferrari
• The second Ferrari drive takes 3rd place

Interesting to note that two years after, was the introduction of a massive regulation change that led to Lewis winning the title with his new team...

 

So youre telling me, there is a chance of someone switching teams for next year, to dominate two seasons after?

 

Edited by Beri, 09 December 2024 - 08:37.

[NewMrMe]

I'm sure it's happened multiple times before but when was the last time a team finished 4th in the WCC with 4 or more wins? Obviously this season being so long skews this a bit with Merc but it's still interesting to me. Maybe a further refinement of that question is has a team ever finished 4th or lower where each of their drivers had multiple wins before? 

 

Never happened.

 

For the last time the team 4th in the WCC won more than one race you have to go back to Renault in 2008 with Alonso. The last time the team in 4th had both their drivers win a race was McLaren in 1997.

 

The closes it came to happening was in 1985 when Williams 3rd and Lotus 4th scored the same number of points Williams took third on countback due to having 4 wins (2 each for Mansell and Rosberg) to Lotus's 3.

[Hrco42]

Ferrari held the record before with 16 years between 1983 and 1999.

Interestingly, until yesterday, Ferrari was always on top in this record (not the only holder tho, as Lotus was the joint holder for a few years).

Ferrari won their first WCC in 1961 and second in 1964, making the record 3 years apart. Their second WCC was the first time a team won multiple WCCs, but not in the consecutive years, so at this point the record was created and starts being tracked. Lotus became the joint holder of the record in 1968, having previously won it in 1965.

Then again Ferrari won the WCC in 1975, increasing the record to 11 years.

Then Ferrari again extended the record in 1999 to 16 years (1983-1999) and it stood until yesterday.

 

To make it clearer, the record progression went on like this:

3 - Ferrari (1961-1964), Lotus (1965-1968)

11 - Ferrari (1964-1975)

16 - Ferrari (1983-1999)

26 - McLaren (1998-2024)

 

Williams last WCC was in 1997, so they could take the record as early as next year, Ferrari would need to wait until 2035.

 

Other noticable long periods (5+) between two WCCs are:

10 - McLaren (1974-1984)

9 - Red Bull (2013-2022)

7 - McLaren (1991-1998)

5 - Lotus (1973-1978), Williams (1981-1986, 1987-1992)

[Costaz]

Great stat! Perhaps Renault will come back in the 2040s to get a new record? 

[Alan Lewis]

Colin Kolles is even now plotting a Formula 1 return for Vanwall in order to add to their 1958 title...

[NCB619]

Welcome to the matrix

Been around it for a while haha.

 

Reminds me of the old 'In both 2008 and 2009 a British driver won their first WDC by finishing 5th in the Brazilian GP in a Mercedes powered car numbered 22.'

[D28]

Colin Kolles is even now plotting a Formula 1 return for Vanwall in order to add to their 1958 title...

The subject is crazy F1 stats, but this record applies only to teams that have survived for the long haul. Thus Ferrari by 1964, had passed BRM and matched Cooper in WCC titles. Sometimes the interval between championships for Ferrari is presented as a "drought", but really their record is unimpeachable.

[SpaceHorseParty]

The subject is crazy F1 stats, but this record applies only to teams that have survived for the long haul. Thus Ferrari by 1964, had passed BRM and matched Cooper in WCC titles. Sometimes the interval between championships for Ferrari is presented as a "drought", but really their record is unimpeachable.

It's nice that the WCC only started in 1958, and that Enstone wasn't more competitive in 2012–13. Otherwise every discussion about WCC droughts would always include the same argument about whether Mercedes and Lotus should count.

Edited by SpaceHorseParty, 09 December 2024 - 16:03.

[Dan333SP]

Never happened.

 

For the last time the team 4th in the WCC won more than one race you have to go back to Renault in 2008 with Alonso. The last time the team in 4th had both their drivers win a race was McLaren in 1997.

 

The closes it came to happening was in 1985 when Williams 3rd and Lotus 4th scored the same number of points Williams took third on countback due to having 4 wins (2 each for Mansell and Rosberg) to Lotus's 3.

 

Interesting! I wonder if 2024 may be the season with the "best" distribution of race wins as a % of total races between the top 4 teams? In other words, was this the most level playing field between 4 teams ever? I'd wager yes. 

[Dan333SP]

What I'm getting at... Mclaren won the WCC while "only" winning 25% of total races (excluding sprints here). I compared to 2012 and 2009 as two recent years with numerous teams winning races. RBR won WCC in 2012 while winning 35% of total races, Brawn won it in 2009 with 47% thanks to their early run that season.

 

Any WCCs won with fewer than 25% of total wins? 

 

Edit: pasted a little table I made in excel but it looks wonky so I'll remove. 

Edited by Dan333SP, 09 December 2024 - 16:52.

[Collombin]

Ferrari in 1977?

[PayasYouRace]

Ferrari won the constructors’ championship winning only 18.75% (3/16) races in 1982.

Both McLaren and Renault both won four each that year and finished 2nd and 3rd.

[7MGTEsup]

Ferrari 1982, WCC with 3 wins from 15 starts which = 20%

[Myrvold]

Been around it for a while haha.

 

Reminds me of the old 'In both 2008 and 2009 a British driver won their first WDC by finishing 5th in the Brazilian GP in a Mercedes powered car numbered 22.'

 

JVil's three first years in F1 and Hamilton's three first years were also somewhat interesting. So Hamilton should've joined Mercedes in 2010 instead!

[BertoC]

What I'm getting at... Mclaren won the WCC while "only" winning 25% of total races (excluding sprints here). I compared to 2012 and 2009 as two recent years with numerous teams winning races. RBR won WCC in 2012 while winning 35% of total races, Brawn won it in 2009 with 47% thanks to their early run that season.

 

Any WCCs won with fewer than 25% of total wins? 

 

Edit: pasted a little table I made in excel but it looks wonky so I'll remove. 

 

Ferrari only won 3 races in 1982 (18,7%).

 

Edit: Ah, I was late

Edited by BertoC, 09 December 2024 - 17:06.

[Collombin]

Obviously between 1977 and 1982 the rules changed from counting just one car to counting both. Ferrari managed it under both systems then.

[Dan333SP]

Ferrari in 1977?

 

This is a good shout, looks like they were 4 for 17 at 23.5%, but it seems whether you count starts or total races Ferrari in '82 takes it. Thanks for the quick research everyone! 

[Spillage]

I just thought that after Brundle ran Michael relatively close, Flavio just wanted to put lapdogs in the second car from then on.

I don't think Flavio realised how good Schumacher was at that stage. He just saw Brindle being beaten by a rookie (16-0 in qualifying) and assumed that he was underperforming so brought Patrese in for 1993. If was only when Schumacher convincingly beat Patrese (arguably more convincingly than Mansell has on 1992) that he realised Schumacher was the man to lead the team, and picked #2 drivers from then on.

Edited by Spillage, 09 December 2024 - 17:18.

[Dan333SP]

Here's one Autosport recently posted on their IG- The points gap between Max and Sergio was bigger than the combined points gap between all other teammates on the grid (285 vs 275). 

Edited by Dan333SP, Today, 15:43.

[HistoryFan]

Williams had 17 big crashes in 24 races in 2024. In 11 accidents the car was totaly destroyed.

 

Any other team with such stat in the past? I guess a team with Andrea de Cesaris on the wheel...

[Dan333SP]

Williams had 17 big crashes in 24 races in 2024. In 11 accidents the car was totaly destroyed.

 

Any other team with such stat in the past? I guess a team with Andrea de Cesaris on the wheel...

 

This is pretty incredible. Cars are also more expensive than they have ever been by some margin, so the total cost to the team through crash damage is astronomical. 

[Ruusperi]

Williams had 17 big crashes in 24 races in 2024. In 11 accidents the car was totaly destroyed.

 

Any other team with such stat in the past? I guess a team with Andrea de Cesaris on the wheel...

Did someone summon Pastor Maldonado? Ok, Pastor had more minor crashes and contacts, but not too many big ones where the car was totaled.

 

Difficult question to answer. For example, before the 90s there were no coverage of free practice sessions, and even news reports failed to mention all crashes. And when mid-season testing was unlimited, there must have been loads of big crashes. How many cars Ferrari lost in Fiorano alone? Who knows. Also, before 1994 the run-off areas were almost non-existent, so the risk of destroying the car was greater. And the smaller teams often built cars that were very difficult to drive and could fall apart at any point.

 

Luckily, though, the cars in the 80s and were cheaper to build.