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#1 Salsin

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 23:14

Reading various people asking for info. on all sorts of topics reminded me of something.

What has happened to this Archive? I recall that, after Martin Hadwen's death in 2010, I read that it was being moved to premises at the Snetterton circuit?

Is it still there? Has it been moved to another of MSV's locations? I don't see MSV promoting it as a historical research archive.

 

I would be sad to think it has just "vanished" as I was instrumental in organising the transportation of bulky collections from a number of donors over to Martin in Norfolk. After meeting Martin at a "do" at Snetterton, he told me that his big problem was physically moving "stuff" from A to B. The company I worked for at the time had a motor sport enthusiast MD and we had vans visiting private homes (as distinct from business premises) all over the country. The MD agreed that, providing it didn't involve a van going too far off its planned route, we could pick up from the donor, bring back to our HQ, store temporarily in our warehouse and then deliver to Martin when we next had a van going up the A11 towards Norwich. It worked well and I even recall persuading my wife a few times that she would like a day out when we had a donor who was keen to offload material quickly and before we had a van scheduled to visit that area. I recall everything from books, magazines, brochures, photos, entry lists etc. etc. Pretty well everything was donated by private individuals although I do recall us collecting from Thruxton on one occasion when they were having a clear-out.

Has anyone any knowledge about it?

Mike Dodman.



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#2 D-Type

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 19:00

I wondered what had happened - I didn't know about Martin Hadwen's death.



#3 Rupertlt1

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 17:58

The silence is ominous.

We had a bunch of incompetent do-gooders here in Canada. Due to improper storage the finest collection of Canadian motor sport memorabilia, much of it irreplaceable, was destroyed by some very stupid people.

You have to look to the USA to see how it can be done.

The International Motor Racing Research Center, in Watkins Glen, New York, is an exemplar. This grew as an offshoot of the public library. Rumour has it that they received a wedge of cash resulting from the McLaren fine in the Spygate affair. Another breathtaking document and photograph collection is at the Revs Library in Naples, Florida.

Silverstone are allegedly contemplating something similar. Can't these folks get together and offer an archive that is worthy of British motor sport?

 

RGDS RLT



#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 18:06

There was an earlier thread asking the same question:

Motor Sport Archive

but again no real info was forthcoming.

#5 Salsin

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 19:37

Just a thought.

I wonder if anyone from MotorSportVision monitors this forum and whether MSV would like to give us an official response?

Mike Dodman



#6 john winfield

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 07:35

Just a thought.

I wonder if anyone from MotorSportVision monitors this forum and whether MSV would like to give us an official response?

Mike Dodman

Good question Mike.

I wonder whether space in the soon-to-be vacated Donington Collection buildings could be allocated for development of the Archive. Donington has reasonable transport links and, of course, a racing legacy.

Any thoughts, MSV?



#7 Garsted

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 15:49

I enquired of MSV in June 2015 and got this reply:-

 

"The Archive is not currently available for public use. It is our intention to bring back to use but the process is proving somewhat protracted.

 

I am sorry we cannot help at this time."

 

I will ask again

 

Steve



#8 Rupertlt1

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 23:18

There is a pattern that emerges in all this. Well-intentioned folk scoop up valuable material and then by a set of chances make it unavailable to everybody else. People that have donated material feel duped, researchers looking forward to better days, have been disappointed and deprived.

On a wider point TNF has been going for some while, but without any systematic output. My approach is to reinforce success, hence time spent contributing to the heroic efforts of Martin Krejci to document race results, captioning photographs at Revs and assisting single marque experts with research. Hill climb histories are also an interest (documenting Firle Hill Climb played a part in the Revival - it reminded folk of what they had lost). 

Much remains to be done. I think of UK racing where there are still large gaps in our knowledge of what took place at circuits in the fifties and sixties, on up to modern times. Some great researchers are thwarted simply because they do not have access to the right information.  We can do better. I want to reach the widest audience possible. 

What is happening at Silverstone?

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 01 November 2018 - 23:26.


#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 07:42

And just to lay down another marker, when the Haynes Motor Museum in Sparkford was redeveloped a few years ago, an archive was promised there too.



#10 Rupertlt1

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 12:28

Before we get too fed up it is worth remarking on a couple of good sources in England:

 

- the museum at Gaydon has Motor and Autocar in their archive which are easily accessible.

 

- the B.A.R.C. at Thruxton has programmes, some B.A.R.C. Gazettes (plus some random rare photographs which needed digitising when I was there). Make an appointment.

 

RGDS RLT

 

P.S. Prescott very good source. Also try Shelsley Walsh..


Edited by Rupertlt1, 02 November 2018 - 12:56.


#11 DCapps

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 12:59

There is a pattern that emerges in all this. Well-intentioned folk scoop up valuable material and then by a set of chances make it unavailable to everybody else. People that have donated material feel duped, researchers looking forward to better days, have been disappointed and deprived.

On a wider point TNF has been going for some while, but without any systematic output. My approach is to reinforce success, hence time spent contributing to the heroic efforts of Martin Krejci to document race results, captioning photographs at Revs and assisting single marque experts with research. Hill climb histories are also an interest (documenting Firle Hill Climb played a part in the Revival - it reminded folk of what they had lost). 

Much remains to be done. I think of UK racing where there are still large gaps in our knowledge of what took place at circuits in the fifties and sixties, on up to modern times. Some great researchers are thwarted simply because they do not have access to the right information.  We can do better. I want to reach the widest audience possible. 

What is happening at Silverstone?

 

RGDS RLT

 

Rupert,

 

You make some very pointed, valid points that span many of the long litany of issues that plagues the study of motor sport history. I, for one, certainly appreciate the yeoman's work you are doing to help a wide variety of people and organizations with their research.

 

As you suggest, with the information available, it is somewhat difficult to develop knowledge of the topic....

 

HDC



#12 RobMk2a

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 14:05

Rupert, 

 

The VSCC library in Chipping Norton has copies of Autosport, Motor, Motor Sport, Autocar and a number of early publications and various books.

 

The volunteer librarians will do a search but its probably best to visit. 

 

I understand that the Beaulieu archive has more info / photos but I've not visited yet. 

 

Rob 


Edited by RobMk2a, 02 November 2018 - 14:05.


#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 15:40

I haven't been to Beaulieu for some years, but they have Autocar, Motor and Light Car (the last only up to 1940 and post-1945; Gaydon has the wartime issues). However, their copies of the earlier years are in awful condition, due to heavy use. And their reading room charges are eye-watering!

 

For anyone wishing to consult good quality pre-1948 issues of Autocar and Motor, I'd recommend the Library of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in London. Lovely people, very helpful! And free to use - they do charge for photocopies, but raised no objection to me using my own scanner. Do book what you want in advance as the stuff has to be retrieved from the basement. The library's catalogue is online - they have lots of interesting stuff!



#14 RS2000

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 16:31

There is a pattern that emerges in all this. Well-intentioned folk scoop up valuable material and then by a set of chances make it unavailable to everybody else. People that have donated material feel duped, researchers looking forward to better days, have been disappointed and deprived.
RGDS RLT


Yes. There is an element of distrust and concern that some archives held by key figures who are no longer in the first flush of youth (including some major figures from works competition history) may get into the hands of the wrong people. "Wrong" includes some supposedly reputable "one make" clubs, who guard data unnecessarily closely (claiming to be protecting against "replicas" but in reality concealing known replicas passed off as original vehicles).
The problem for anyone holding unique data is where to gift it prior to their demise.

Can we please change the thread title to motorsport rather than racing?

Edited by RS2000, 02 November 2018 - 16:33.


#15 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 23:20

When I was researching the history of the British GP for a book project I was young, naive (Doug Naive) and felt confident that the RAC would have preserved all of its original race documentation, copies of the duplicated in-race press bulletins, practice times, race results, the whole kaboolah.   I asked the friendly RAC Press Office people in Pall Mall and was assured that oh yes, their library held everything I could possibly want to know.  

 

This was terrific news so I reported to the RAC in Pall Mall and was directed to the library.  There I was shown...shelves containing bound volumes of...'Autosport', 'Motor' and 'Autocar'.  There you are, I was told triumphantly, there is everything you could possibly want in there...

 

My goodness me - I actually had at home more published reference than they had there.  When I asked about original documentation, entry forms, scrutineering and timing records etc, i was just greeted with blank looks.  The concept alone seemed to mystify them completely.  "Ooh no", I was told, "We never keep any of that stuff...".

 

I told them that they should start keeping it, right then.

 

But I suspect my entreaty fell upon deaf ears.

 

However - the BRDC does have quite a good archive and library in the old Abbey farmhouse at Silverstone, and it has grown and been pretty well re-organised in recent years.  The picture is not all uncomprehending indifference...or at least...not quite.

 

DCN



#16 RobMk2a

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 08:55

When I was researching the history of the British GP for a book project I was young, naive (Doug Naive) and felt confident that the RAC would have preserved all of its original race documentation, copies of the duplicated in-race press bulletins, practice times, race results, the whole kaboolah.   I asked the friendly RAC Press Office people in Pall Mall and was assured that oh yes, their library held everything I could possibly want to know.  

 

This was terrific news so I reported to the RAC in Pall Mall and was directed to the library.  There I was shown...shelves containing bound volumes of...'Autosport', 'Motor' and 'Autocar'.  There you are, I was told triumphantly, there is everything you could possibly want in there...

 

My goodness me - I actually had at home more published reference than they had there.  When I asked about original documentation, entry forms, scrutineering and timing records etc, i was just greeted with blank looks.  The concept alone seemed to mystify them completely.  "Ooh no", I was told, "We never keep any of that stuff...".

 

I told them that they should start keeping it, right then.

 

But I suspect my entreaty fell upon deaf ears.

 

However - the BRDC does have quite a good archive and library in the old Abbey farmhouse at Silverstone, and it has grown and been pretty well re-organised in recent years.  The picture is not all uncomprehending indifference...or at least...not quite.

 

DCN

Doug,

 

I visited the RAC Club in London about 2 years ago and received the same response, as again they seemed to believe they had everything either in the library or searchable online. When I pointed out this was not the case ( I was looking for RAC Rally entry documents) and asked more questions the librarian finally admitted that there is a 'store' somewhere in Victoria. However, it appears that this is not accessible. Maybe you could speak to Ben Cussons to see if he can make the information available to researchers? 

 

Rob 



#17 Allan Lupton

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 09:33

Can it be that the store "somewhere in Victoria" is in the Belgrave Square premises where the RAC Comps. Dept. once was?

 

Anent Silverstone, a few years/decades ago BRDC was assembling a complete set of race programmes (and probably other documents). I seem to recall being contacted by someone (Martin Grant-Peterkin I think) who had been hired to do the work to see if I had some of the Eight Clubs programmes he was short of. I had and donated them on the understanding that they would give me photocopies for my records which I duly received. I assume that whatever was collected at that time hasn't been thrown out but I've no idea what sort of access there is.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 07 November 2018 - 09:40.


#18 Kvadrat

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 09:57

This was terrific news so I reported to the RAC in Pall Mall and was directed to the library.  There I was shown...shelves containing bound volumes of...'Autosport', 'Motor' and 'Autocar'.  There you are, I was told triumphantly, there is everything you could possibly want in there...

 

My goodness me - I actually had at home more published reference than they had there.  When I asked about original documentation, entry forms, scrutineering and timing records etc, i was just greeted with blank looks.  The concept alone seemed to mystify them completely.  "Ooh no", I was told, "We never keep any of that stuff...".

 

 

Someone here at TNF also told a story of how he tried to access FIA archives ringing at the door of their Paris office and was told that's impoossible and advised to make a request at their Swss office.



#19 Red Socks

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 17:43

The late Neil (RN) Eason-Gibson has some responsibility both for the presence and absence of British records.

Back in the 1960's when he was secretary to the BRDC at Silverstone he watched very carefully as the then board decided they no longer required the early years records of the club, members, results etc and they were disposed of. On receiving written confirmation that they were indeed utterly redundant he then made his way the the place where they were dumped and collected them all up and took them home .

Years later when their disposal was being regretted he duly returned them all -with one exception he kept the proposal of his late fathers BRDC membership -I seem to think proposed by Sir Malcolm Campbell and seconded by another pre war star.

In later years he was every year  the RAC Secretary to the British Grand Prix for a long time and in those days entries were in writing as was the drivers signing on sheet. He would wait until the stewards had signed off the final documentation of the race and gone and again he would collect up all the drivers signing on sheets and take them home. I understand they sold for good pocket money over the years, I remember back in the nineties him telling me that due to the presence of Senna's signature one years BGP signing on sheet alone had sold for over £1000 to Japan.

Regarding the FIA records, apart from results there is no reason for them to have any.They are facilitators, not organisers, so they merely licence others to run races and apart from stewards, have no secretarial/clerical presence at any events, so by definition have no paperwork or records. That responsibility is for the event organisers.



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#20 tsrwright

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 07:52

Haven't been here for a while ...

 

For the RAC archive go to https://www.royalaut...rch-collections

 
I think the archive is all at Churchill College, University of Cambridge; there isn't much detailed motorsport stuff though. The minutes of the Competition Committee are at the MSA, or whatever they now are and I consulted them a few years ago. Getting access was a struggle for a while but worth it as it was a very valuable source. By the way, the archives of the the ACU are at the University of Warwick and a catalogue is also available online. So not everything is lost, at least in the UK. Internationally it is not the same.
 
I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows anything about access to the FIA archives as there seems to be no way of finding out. Somehow I recall they are in Geneva. The problem is that correspondence simply doesn't get a reply. Links to historic material on the FIA website don't work. After a year of me asking CAMS and they asking FIA, I recently got a loan copy of the FIA 2004 centenary history written by Ray Hutton. In the meantime Ray kindly sent me his typescript of several chapters. It is a superb book, particularly valuable for its 'modern' history of the sport and it is ridiculous that it is not widely available. NO LIBRARY IN THE WORLD has a copy, not even the Bibliotheque nationale de France!
 
How can these FIA people have so little sense of the importance of their own history and why do they not want to share it?
 
Anyway, while I had the FIA book I had a  professional pdf made for private research purposes and am happy to make it available free online if anyone can suggest how this could be done.
 
Now I am seeking access to the FIA 50th anniversary book by Jean-Jacques Fréville because it may have more of the very early history I am seeking. Has anyone seen one?
 
 
 
 
 
.


#21 Peter Morley

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 09:31

 

Haven't been here for a while ...

 

For the RAC archive go to https://www.royalaut...rch-collections

 
I think the archive is all at Churchill College, University of Cambridge; there isn't much detailed motorsport stuff though. The minutes of the Competition Committee are at the MSA, or whatever they now are and I consulted them a few years ago. Getting access was a struggle for a while but worth it as it was a very valuable source. By the way, the archives of the the ACU are at the University of Warwick and a catalogue is also available online. So not everything is lost, at least in the UK. Internationally it is not the same.
 
I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows anything about access to the FIA archives as there seems to be no way of finding out. Somehow I recall they are in Geneva. The problem is that correspondence simply doesn't get a reply. Links to historic material on the FIA website don't work. After a year of me asking CAMS and they asking FIA, I recently got a loan copy of the FIA 2004 centenary history written by Ray Hutton. In the meantime Ray kindly sent me his typescript of several chapters. It is a superb book, particularly valuable for its 'modern' history of the sport and it is ridiculous that it is not widely available. NO LIBRARY IN THE WORLD has a copy, not even the Bibliotheque nationale de France!
 
How can these FIA people have so little sense of the importance of their own history and why do they not want to share it?
 
Anyway, while I had the FIA book I had a  professional pdf made for private research purposes and am happy to make it available free online if anyone can suggest how this could be done.
 
Now I am seeking access to the FIA 50th anniversary book by Jean-Jacques Fréville because it may have more of the very early history I am seeking. Has anyone seen one?
 
 
 
 
 
.

 

 

I'd like to see a copy.

Maybe you could place it in a dropbox file and then give us the code to access it?



#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 09:46

 

I'd like to see a copy.

Maybe you could place it in a dropbox file and then give us the code to access it?

 

#metoo :wave:

 

A copy did come up for auction recently and sold - along with four FIA magazines - for just £63.

 

https://auction.cata...04-2018-5-items

 

 

2004 marked FIA’s 100th anniversary and the release of this book on the history of 100 years of automobilism which was presented at the anniversary meeting on 14 October.

This book has never been for sale in stores.



#23 DCapps

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 23:24

Terry, does Hutton mention the Association Générale de l'Automobile (AGA)?

 

Apparently, that was the organization actually created in June 1904 before changing its name in 1906 to the AIACR. This was one of my relatively recent research surprises when I finally realized that I had this information for a long number of years. (Doh!)

 

Or at least that is how I have interpreted it. Any others with an idea regarding also feel welcome to add their insight on this.

 

To be honest, I was not sure that the book actually existed. Not long ago, I attempted to once again deal with the folks FIA regarding any historical files that scholars could access to use in their scholarly research -- at this point, I will stop since you already know how that went. My profound apologies to rocks everywhere, but dealing with those clowns was as if I were dealing with a huge box of clueless rocks. Again, my apologies to all the rocks out there.

 

As with Richard & Peter, providing access to scholars would be very helpful.

 

On a similar note, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame Museum recently started a preservation effort directed at the AAA, USAC, CART, etc. material through a digitization project that open up access to the material for scholars in the future. Meanwhile, the digitization of the SCCA material continues to roll along at the IMRRC in Watkins Glen. Having seen it just after it arrived, it is a massive effort to say the least, but it is proceeding at a steady pace and should be a bonanza when finally finished. The original files will then be preserved and properly stored.



#24 tsrwright

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 01:20

Hi all, Rather surprised myself and managed to post the pdf on a site I run so go for it. It's a great read. Any print shop will run it off and bind it or you can read on screen.

 

Go to www.loosefillings.com then in the menu across the top go to DOWNLOADS AVAILABLE.

 

T



#25 tsrwright

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 03:02

Terry, does Hutton mention the Association Générale de l'Automobile (AGA)?

 

Apparently, that was the organization actually created in June 1904 before changing its name in 1906 to the AIACR. This was one of my relatively recent research surprises when I finally realized that I had this information for a long number of years. (Doh!)

 

Or at least that is how I have interpreted it. Any others with an idea regarding also feel welcome to add their insight on this.

 

 

I have not heard of the AGR and a Google search only came up with one reference that I could see c1911 which translated roughly reads: We know that the General Automobile Association is currently working to have on the roads poles surmounted by indicator plates, which offer the figurative representation of the obstacles. The GA reproached the posts previously established by the Touring Club for ..

 

Tt would certainly be worth looking in period sources for the Association Générale de l'Automobile (AGA). The may be something on line in the BnF

 

It might be a good idea to explain what I am after:

 

I am working on book about motorcyclist Eric Fernihough using his papers in the Brooklands Museum and much other stuff I have found. There is so much rubbish written about the world's motorcycle speed records that I and another person (whose main interest is cars) have been working to sort fact from fiction. In order to do this properly we need to know what rules were in place at various times. There is some overlap between motorcycles and cars because in the very early days the same people ran both.

 

In summary, the first credible record trials were run by or for the Automobile Club de France (ACF) at Acheres NW of Paris in 1898 and were for cars and motorcycles.

 

In 1902 the Commission Sportive of the ACF decided that courses must be level, measured and electrically timed by Mors equipment and a course was established and homologated at Dourdan SW of Paris. I don't know what other rules were applied then.There may then or later have been a weight limit of 50kg for motorcycles but that is not clear yet.

 

The Association Internationale des Automobiles Clubs Reconnus (AIACR) and the Federation Internationale des Clubs Motocyclistes (FICM) were both formed in 1904 and both had more important things to deal with than records.

 

As far as I can tell the ACF was the French member of the FICM and continued to manage some sort of recognition of car world's 'best speeds' although I do not know if this was on behalf of the AIACR or just for its own interest.

 

At Brooklands from 1907 the BARC had taken timing very seriously; this is well documented and presumably it was homologated by or to the requirements of the ACF. A 125.95mph/202.68km speed at Brooklands in November 1909 was the first to be recognized by the AIACR as a world's record and around this time the RAC proposed to the AIACR that all short distance record times should be the mean of runs in two directions and this was adopted by the AIACR for implementation in 1911.

 

FInally, as far as preWW1 goes, the third meeting of the FICM in October 1913 decided to adopt the same rules as the AIACR (whatever they were) and presumably that applied from 1914 onwards.

 

I should say I have yet to dig deeper into this but it will be obvious that the relevant minutes of the FIA and the FIM would tell me most of what I want to know. After some years of asking, the FIM archives have not been opened since I was told they were all in store pending renovations (a stock excuse I think). I haven't yet bothered with the FIA. The RAC and ACU minutes may help.

 

Any clues or reliable information would be appreciated.


Edited by tsrwright, 08 March 2019 - 03:23.


#26 tsrwright

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 04:08

I found some 'Revues' of the AGA online at the BnF and the first one had what appeared to be minutes of a AIACR meeting. Seems it was founded 1901/2  'sous le patronage de l' ACF' and I suspect it was a parallel organisation to keep the riff-raff out of the ACF proper but under its control. Only guessing of course:)



#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:16

Some French press mentions of the AGA:

 

https://gallica.bnf.... l'Automobile")

 

It seems to have rotated very much about one man - Jules-Charles Dorange, whoever he might be - and disappears from the press in early 1914.

 

I wonder if there might be some sort of parallel with the UK, where the RAC was affiliated to the AIACR and dealt with sporting matters and the merged Automobile Association and Motor Union were affiliated to the Alliance Internationale de Tourisme?



#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:17

See also this bit of thread drift ...

 

https://forums.autos...-2#entry8427152



#29 Michael Ferner

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:33

Thanks for making this avalable, Terry! :up:

About the rules, that thread posted by Richard provides some framework, if not actual answers. Yes, 50 kgs seems to have been the general weight limit for motor bicycles at the time (1902), see also this post by yours truly: https://forums.autos...-cup/?p=8350144

#30 tsrwright

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:42

I am not certain that there was a French m/c absolute 50kg limit, at least for records, because there were speed trials eg at Dourdan October 1904 when Lanfranchi on a new Peugeot set a world's best in the under 50kg class which was faster than anyone in the over 50kg class. The next 'best' was at  in Ostend July 1905 where there can't have been an absolute limit because the best time (note I do not say 'record') was reported to be by 'Sauveniere' on a Clement V4 bicycle pacing machine of about 1500c. The Americans (FAM) adopted an equivalent 110lb limit in 1904 with no heavier class. Then when heavier bikes turned up at Ormond-Daytona beach in 1909 the organizers simply had a 'freaks' class. Shortly after that the FAM got very upset with the British ACU when they discovered they had a capacity limit of 1000cc but not a weight limit.

 

Be that as it may, can we discuss here or in a new thread how someone or some of us can get access to whatever ACF/AIACR archive(s) exist? The FIA International Historical Commission says online that it has an Archives Working Party :

 

The CHI’s Archives Working Party strives to resolve problems facing both public and private automobile-related archives under threat of being lost or destroyed, and to raise awareness of the concerns harboured by archivists who can no longer properly protect or house their own archives.

 

I have been wondering about trying and make some headway via the CAMS (Australia) delegate to the Commission but haven't got round to it yet and I don't think I have much hope on my own.

 

Can we combine forces in some way?


Edited by tsrwright, 08 March 2019 - 10:44.


#31 tsrwright

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:45

Some French press mentions of the AGA:

 

https://gallica.bnf.... l'Automobile")

 

It seems to have rotated very much about one man - Jules-Charles Dorange, whoever he might be - and disappears from the press in early 1914.

 

I wonder if there might be some sort of parallel with the UK, where the RAC was affiliated to the AIACR and dealt with sporting matters and the merged Automobile Association and Motor Union were affiliated to the Alliance Internationale de Tourisme?

 

Yes, it does sound like it.



#32 Michael Ferner

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:15

I am not certain that there was a French m/c absolute 50kg limit, at least for records, because there were speed trials eg at Dourdan October 1904 when Lanfranchi on a new Peugeot set a world's best in the under 50kg class which was faster than anyone in the over 50kg class. The next 'best' was at  in Ostend July 1905 where there can't have been an absolute limit because the best time (note I do not say 'record') was reported to be by 'Sauveniere' on a Clement V4 bicycle pacing machine of about 1500c. The Americans (FAM) adopted an equivalent 110lb limit in 1904 with no heavier class. Then when heavier bikes turned up at Ormond-Daytona beach in 1909 the organizers simply had a 'freaks' class. Shortly after that the FAM got very upset with the British ACU when they discovered they had a capacity limit of 1000cc but not a weight limit.


Note that the 50 kg limit was for motor bicycles - at the time, the name "motor cycle" was still very much in use for vehicles with three or four wheels!

#33 DCapps

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 01:26

My major impression of my first run through the Hutton FIA book made me think of the sort of the in-house corporate hagiographies that are designed to both stroke the egos of those running things and embellish (to put it mildly) the corporate legacy. Well, doh, that was its entire purpose for being, of course. Again, pending a second or subsequent reading, there seems to be a number of nits to pick*, some making me wonder if anyone actually bothered to fact-check the text -- any question of peer review being nonsensical to say the least -- not to mention what might be some interesting interpretations of the past. Yes,I understand that this was never meant to be a scholarly monograph, merely centennial happy-happy souvenir book that few would ever actually sit down and read. That said, if this could/should be considered the Official Story that the FIA wishes to convey -- well doh, again! -- to itself and those few outsiders fortunate enough to have access to this book (Thank You, Terry!!!), it certainly seems to capture the fullness of modesty for which the organization is famed...

 

 

* Not being an FIA-certified historian, and therefore being somewhat Unworthy to offer any comments on this august literary effort, I was somehow under the impression that the formula change for the 1961-1963 period was announced in October 1958, and not in 1959. I also noticed that Hutton, in good company with that esteemed auto racing historian Russ Catlin and legions of others, seems to have not a clue that the ACA was a member club of the AAA, with the Triple-A coming into being thanks to the efforts of the ACA in late-1901/early 1902; the fall out between the ACA and the AAA was thanks to a change in the method of determining the membership fees that the clubs would be assessed beginning in 1908, $1/member versus a max of $500 for a club, which would have essentially doubled the fee  of the ACA with its 1,000+ membership. Also, the racing issue was, basically, collateral damage. It should also be noted that the ACA later rejoined the AAA. But, I digress...



#34 tsrwright

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 05:14

Note that the 50 kg limit was for motor bicycles - at the time, the name "motor cycle" was still very much in use for vehicles with three or four wheels!

 

Correct, and initially very confusing when looking for motorcycle records. Frequently, if not always, motorbicycles were listed in early French results as motocyclettes. I just noticed some results at Deauville August 1902 where there were under 30kg and 30-50kg motocyclette classes but no over 50kg. To make sense of it all we need the rules but maybe there weren't many and nobody bothered much anyway?



#35 Peter Morley

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 08:48

Hi all, Rather surprised myself and managed to post the pdf on a site I run so go for it. It's a great read. Any print shop will run it off and bind it or you can read on screen.

 

Go to www.loosefillings.com then in the menu across the top go to DOWNLOADS AVAILABLE.

 

T

 

That works, thank you very much

Peter



#36 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 13:48

My major impression of my first run through the Hutton FIA book made me think of the sort of the in-house corporate hagiographies that are designed to both stroke the egos of those running things and embellish (to put it mildly) the corporate legacy. Well, doh, that was its entire purpose for being, of course....

I have to concur, Don. The description of Mr Mosley's role bears all the hallmarks of what Private Eye calls arslikhan ...

 

Very much sanitised throughout. And in some cases inaccurate:

 

The European Championship was to run
fur only Rve years, taking in just the Grandes
Epreuves (which in 1935, poignantly; did not
include the original Grand Prix of Fraince, as the
ACF objected to the European Championship
proposed by the Germans). Mercedes' senior
driver, Rudolf Carncdola, was champion three
times, Bernd Rosemeyer won in 1936, and
Hermann Lang scored the fewest points (for
that was the way it worked, with one point for a
win, two for second, and so on) in 1939 -
although we can be fairly sure that he never
received his gold medal.

Well, he did get a gold medal - but not from the AIACR!



#37 DCapps

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 14:27

I have to concur, Don. The description of Mr Mosley's role bears all the hallmarks of what Private Eye calls arslikhan ...

 

Very much sanitised throughout. And in some cases inaccurate:

Well, he did get a gold medal - but not from the AIACR!

 

As George Takei says: Oh. My!



#38 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 19:58

This is something of a gem too - from page 72:

 

But in 1938, when Germany's
supremacy of motor racing was unchallenged,
the ONS invited the CSI to hold its autumn
meeting in 1939 in Berlin at the time of the
Motor Show. Delegates could also inspect 'the
special records track' near the city.

That would be the Berlin Motor Show which was held in that well-known Northern Hemisphere autumnal month of February then? And presumably the 'special records track' was Dessau; I'm not sure 125km away counts as 'near' Berlin!

 

Shome mishtake shurely?



#39 tsrwright

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 00:52

Amazing, a motoring book with some mistakes!


Edited by tsrwright, 10 March 2019 - 00:53.


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#40 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 01:07

Amazing, a motoring book with some mistakes!

:lol:

 

I suppose we can cut some slack on the European Championship, given that the author was presumably taking Nixon's research and Lang's testimony at face value, but I really can't see how the Berlin stuff could have got past as competent an editor as the late John Blunsden, who is credited with that role.