79 replies to this topic

[Bomsb]

Ricciardo just had his 5th mechanical failure for the year and the usual haw haw youll be driving for Renault next year have fun with your decision comments came out again. But lets look closer at the mechanical failures for each team so far.

 

https://www.racefans...ents-penalties/

 

Red Bull easily have the worst reliability with 7 total mechanical failures. But what about Renault? Just 1. Of the 10 teams  Renault are only behind Mercedes for having great reliability. So Christian Horner and Helmut Marko can crow all they like about the Renault engine in the back of their car. The Renault chassis has no problem whatsoever so maybe, just maybe its Red Bull themselves that are the cause for all of their problems.... 

[keshav]

Its just Ricciardo. Max is doing quite well with the PU. Seems like just bad luck.

[Laster]

I think you’re right to point out the difference in reliability, but I believe you’re only looking at reliability costing race finishes. I know Hulkenberg has had two gearbox change penalties, an engine change penalty, that engine blowing up in Austria, a fuel flow problem in qualifying for Spain, and a fuel baffle problem in Hungary. Meanwhile I can recall Sainz MGU-K letting go in France and the Engine penalty in Spa.

[krapmeister]

I think you’re right to point out the difference in reliability, but I believe you’re only looking at reliability costing race finishes. I know Hulkenberg has had two gearbox change penalties, an engine change penalty, that engine blowing up in Austria, a fuel flow problem in qualifying for Spain, and a fuel baffle problem in Hungary. Meanwhile I can recall Sainz MGU-K letting go in France and the Engine penalty in Spa.

You can say the same for Ricciardo - many races affected by grid penalties.

And even of the races he won, China he barely made it out for qualifying after an engine swap and Monaco he had and MGU-K (?) failure during the race.

He has had ridiculously bad reliability now for almost 1.5 seasons - it really is beyond a joke.

[Ivanhoe]

You can say the same for Ricciardo - many races affected by grid penalties.
And even of the races he won, China he barely made it out for qualifying after an engine swap and Monaco he had and MGU-K (?) failure during the race.
He has had ridiculously bad reliability now for almost 1.5 seasons - it really is beyond a joke.

All Renault reliability problems no? That’s the issue of this thread. Not Dan vs Max, but RBR reliability vs Renault.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 21 October 2018 - 20:51.

[SonGoku]

RBR is known for pushing the boundaries and then you can end up on the wrong side.

[SwedeForceOne]

Luck evens out over a couple of seasons















Just kidding, Ric is that lonely guy on the edge of the Bell curve of luck

[eREr]

Ricciardo just had his 5th mechanical failure for the year and the usual haw haw youll be driving for Renault next year have fun with your decision comments came out again. But lets look closer at the mechanical failures for each team so far.

https://www.racefans...ents-penalties/

Red Bull easily have the worst reliability with 7 total mechanical failures. But what about Renault? Just 1. Of the 10 teams Renault are only behind Mercedes for having great reliability. So Christian Horner and Helmut Marko can crow all they like about the Renault engine in the back of their car. The Renault chassis has no problem whatsoever so maybe, just maybe its Red Bull themselves that are the cause for all of their problems....

This table is not perfect. Both Mercedes retired in Austria because of technical issues (hydraulic and fuel pressure issues).

[CL16]

Just wait till it’s the Honda going bang weekly in that tiny packaged Redbull, only reason it’s become half an ok engine is because it’s no longer constrained by McLarens tiny package.

[Ivanhoe]

Horner said Ricciardo suffered a Renault failure in Austin.

[Arundo]

I believe that Redbull is way more on the edge with their engineering then Renault but thats probably because they are in different stages of their "path" Redbull fighting to keep up with Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault trying to get to the front within the next 3 to 5 years. 

 

Redbull needs to get more out of the other parts of the car then other teams as the Renault is lacking. 

[RPM40]

I believe that Redbull is way more on the edge with their engineering then Renault but thats probably because they are in different stages of their "path" Redbull fighting to keep up with Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault trying to get to the front within the next 3 to 5 years. 

 

Redbull needs to get more out of the other parts of the car then other teams as the Renault is lacking. 

 

I think thats it really. Red Bull probably run more aggressive packaging and cooling. Its nothing new that their package has been more unreliable than the other Renault teams. 

[A3]

So the Red Bull is too advanced for the French PU?

Or should RBR just be less aggressive with the package and stop trying to fight with Merc and Ferrari?

What’s the solution?

[Andromeda]

Starting to think Riccardos move to Renault wasnt such a good idea. Cant believe Im saying this right now but that Honda is looking good

[RPM40]

Starting to think Riccardos move to Renault wasnt such a good idea. Cant believe Im saying this right now but that Honda is looking good

 

Why? They didn't even score points today. The factory Renault team got 6th and 7th.

[Arundo]

So the Red Bull is too advanced for the French PU?

Or should RBR just be less aggressive with the package and stop trying to fight with Merc and Ferrari?

What’s the solution?

 

Both i guess, Renault engine is not all that solid. Redbull has a quick car but if one driver every race fails to finish due to mechanical stuff they cant win the constructors championship. 

 

Solution ? Make the car more reliable. Hopefully Honda gives Redbull more room to be less aggressive next year so the reliability goes up. 

[rockdude101]

It wouldn't surprise me if it were discovered that Dan is a guinea pig for development and Max receives the setup that is stable. 

 

Shades of Webber/Vettel again. 

[Paincake]

Renault isn't good, but Verstappen got 2nd with good pace? Red Bull and their engineers put higher a risk development into the renault engine. When Renault comes out and openly says that its not Renault but Red Bull themselves that cause these dnf's, what Renault really mean is ''don't push our engine too much on the limit, relax''.

I don't doubt that eventually Honda may have a good relationship with Red Bull... but it will such patience wich McLaren didn't have even with all their resources.

I personally still expect Renault to be up there eventually, they always have in past history... but then again time will tell.

[w1Y]

Maybe Dan is a car breaker???

Tje reliability is a joke

[Heyli]

Renault isn't good, but Verstappen got 2nd with good pace? Red Bull and their engineers put higher a risk development into the renault engine. When Renault comes out and openly says that its not Renault but Red Bull themselves that cause these dnf's, what Renault really mean is ''don't push our engine too much on the limit, relax''.

I don't doubt that eventually Honda may have a good relationship with Red Bull... but it will such patience wich McLaren didn't have even with all their resources.

I personally still expect Renault to be up there eventually, they always have in past history... but then again time will tell.

Would be awfull if RB wasn´t pushing though. That would just mean they are a guaranteed 5th/6th every race?

[Arundo]

Would be awfull if RB wasn´t pushing though. That would just mean they are a guaranteed 5th/6th every race?

 

They should, I think Redbull waited long enough for Renault to get their **** together. Even Honda seems to get it together somehow where Renault is still slow and a bit of a porcelain engine. 

[krapmeister]

All Renault reliability problems no? That’s the issue of this thread. Not Dan vs Max, but RBR reliability vs Renault.

Well I wasn't comparing Dan vs Max so no idea why you brought that up?

My point was in reply to Laster's - if you also include non-race ending issues then RBR has a list as long as your arm. And not all of them are on Renault's head.

The reliability from RBR has been pretty shocking, and it has been going longer than just this season...

[gowebber]

Imagine if Ricciardo's car is virtually bullet proof next year surely it can't be anywhere near as bad as the number of problems this season. That could get real interesting between Cyril and Horner. It does seem more a case of RBR packaging considering the difference in issues between the teams. Is there anyone that had has more car issues over a season or so in F1??

Edited by gowebber, 22 October 2018 - 04:59.

[Bomsb]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

[Requiem84]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

Hulk used more engines than Verstappen?

[Ragnar668]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

Understanding the frustration, but why do you think he has to spin anything?
Renault wants to be in F1 and are asking a lot of money for these engines
If this is necessary to get a podium or a win then it's up to Renault to finally get it right
 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Its just Ricciardo. Max is doing quite well with the PU. Seems like just bad luck.

Or something fishy going like on like all the reliability problems Lewis had in 2016!

[eREr]

Hulk used more engines than Verstappen?

It seems you didn't follow the Renault drivers. It would have been better to keep this comment for yourself.

To be constructive let's see why Hulk used more PU elements than Max:
1. He had a turbo failure in Austria which damaged also the ICE.
2. He had a big penalty for Monza, so they changed everything for free to add more elements to his pool for free.

RB had more dnfs because of other reasons than because of Renault. As an RB fan you should be well aware of this (lots of gearbox issues, exhaust issues, accidents, etc.).

[DILLIGAF]

Not sure if Red Bulls high failure rate is just bad luck, the way they package the engine in the RB14, or the Renault engine itself. Likely a mixture of each imho.

Bob Bell put it this way "We make no changes to the engines we use for our (works) cars and the ones that go to our customers. It may be the installation of the engines that affect the Red Bull cars, or maybe they've just been unlucky"

Edited by DILLIGAF, 23 October 2018 - 00:08.

[teejay]

What was the actual failure for Dan?

 

Camera replay didn't sound like it was breaking into bits when it shut down. 

[krapmeister]

Battery failure - similar to Bahrain apparently...

[teejay]

Wonder if that is related to the packaging causing cooling issues? 

 

A relationship like this has to be a two way street - both sides have to be somewhat flexible, especially when it isn't sole supply from the engine builder. 

 

IMHO.

[Requiem84]

It seems you didn't follow the Renault drivers. It would have been better to keep this comment for yourself.

To be constructive let's see why Hulk used more PU elements than Max:
1. He had a turbo failure in Austria which damaged also the ICE.
2. He had a big penalty for Monza, so they changed everything for free to add more elements to his pool for free.

RB had more dnfs because of other reasons than because of Renault. As an RB fan you should be well aware of this (lots of gearbox issues, exhaust issues, accidents, etc.).

1) thats a reliability problem when your engine breaks and damages other parts. Duh.
2) let’s see with how many engines Hulk finishes the season vs Verstappen.

[David Lightman]

Newey's cars have never been the most reliable which is why I think his 'genius' reputation is overstated.

[mjjTT]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

 

RBR has more than the double amount of points then Reanult and McLaren put together.

[v@sh]

Newey's cars have never been the most reliable which is why I think his 'genius' reputation is overstated.

 

Wasn't the initial MP18 both slow and a car breaker? He does build some really unreliable cars every now and then. I think people just think about all the world championship cars he has built and have forgotten all about the other lemons.

 

As for RB having more issues, I think it's a bit of both to be honest - Renault not entirely on top of the reliability AND RBRs packaging.

 

Renault have also warned them that the C-Spec is more prone to being unreliable Also are RBR are also still using the old MGU-K?

 

Either way, it sucks for DR and hopefully he will at least be able to finish races for the rest of the year. Not sure if moving to Renault is a good idea at this point in time, the chassis is 1s behind RBR which is a lot in F1 terms and the engine has not made the gains expected ever since the regulations began.

[JBJ]

Newey's cars have never been the most reliable which is why I think his 'genius' reputation is overstated.

 

Newey's cars have never been the most reliable which is why I think his 'genius' reputation is overstated.

Yet they needed him badly in 2017

[SenorSjon]

The same team mopped up the field in 2011 and 2013.

I think Renault isn't sharing all data and perhaps parts get too hot in the RB where it isn't expected. Oddly enough, most Renault induced failures happen quite early in the race, usually the first quarter. And there have been stories about dodgy installations. Inexperience from the track side engineer? Manual not up to date? Could be a host of things. Even vibrations from the engine could destroy non-engine parts like gearboxes, while the engine is still fine.

[7MGTEsup]

Maybe Dan is a car breaker???

Tje reliability is a joke

 

Not sure you can have such a thing these days as it's all fly by wire so the computer decides how much torque to apply and how quickly to change gear. All the driver does is push buttons the computer does all the work.

[MikeV1987]

My guess would be it’s how they package the PU, similar to the McLaren-Honda partnership.

Edited by MikeV1987, 23 October 2018 - 15:42.

[Jbleroi]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

Simples Renault keeps all the good stuff for themselves and McLaren (because also customer next year) and Redbull gets all the inferior leftovers.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Wonder if that is related to the packaging causing cooling issues?

A relationship like this has to be a two way street - both sides have to be somewhat flexible, especially when it isn't sole supply from the engine builder.

IMHO.

It probably used to be until all the finger pointing and moaning started - also can’t see Renault helping them that much this year given this is there last year together!

[CharlesWinstone]

Just hoping a journo will have the courage to ask Horner or Marko how do you explain Sainz and Hulkenburg having only 1 mechanical DNF between them compared to 7 for Ricciardo and Verstappen combined when all 4 drivers have Renault engines. What spin would Horner put on that?

Easy. RB wants to be competitive and not a lap down. If Mercedes and Ferrari can do it why not Renault?

[Nathan]

What I find most amazing about the reliability records of Max vs. Dan is if memory serves me correct, Max has spent the most time racing with and behind other cars.

 

Easy. RB wants to be competitive and not a lap down. If Mercedes and Ferrari can do it why not Renault?

 

I'm not so sure about that.  I suspect Red Bull could dial some performance out of the cooling systems and still be third.  They lead 4th by a large margin, plus how competitive is a car parked on the side of the road??  If one considers the RB to be the better chassis of the 3 teams you mention, how much is down to sacrificing reliability for aero and packaging?

Edited by Nathan, 24 October 2018 - 01:08.

[teejay]

Simples Renault keeps all the good stuff for themselves and McLaren (because also customer next year) and Redbull gets all the inferior leftovers.

 

 

Not how it works - they have to make the exact same hardware and software available to customers. 

[Requiem84]

Not how it works - they have to make the exact same hardware and software available to customers.

In theory yes, but in practice?

Last year Toro Rosso got engines that were fixed with old and used spare parts because Renault ran out of new parts.

Mercedes has an (alleged) history of not making all extra special engines avalaible to its customers. Ferrari this year had the mysterious 40HP boost which its customers didnt have.

Etc etc.

[baddog]

Newey's cars have never been the most reliable which is why I think his 'genius' reputation is overstated.

 

He has designed 10 world constructors championship cars, and the best chassis in numerous other years.

 

No other designer even comes close to his results.

[Reddington]

He has designed 10 world constructors championship cars, and the best chassis in numerous other years.

 

No other designer even comes close to his results.

 

A fact that can't be disputed. Well put.

 

I for one don't believe in the whole "packaging too tight" narrative. RBR will have the data, see the temperatures, do the math. They will not take the risk and blow up engines due to overheating just to cross their fingers to see if it will hold or not. It is just people copy/pasting what has been speculated in the press a few times, taking it as fact and repeating it over and over until we are all blue in the face.

 

Renault will always claim an engine failure was RBR's fault whenever they can. RBR will always claim it was the engine responsible for failing, not the car. Same as RBR will claim a win was due to an excellent car and despite the engine and renault will claim the win was due to their engine. The relationship between the two has been sour for quite a while.

 

My personal two cents are that it is a combined matter of pure bad luck (otherwise both cars would face the same reliability issues, and they simply don't), maybe a case of poor installation by the Renault mechanics (I have no idea, but it wouldn't be far fetched to think Renault is keeping the best engineers for their own team now and there are recorded cases of bad installation), and indeed something RBR related in some cases.

 

And don't just pass by the fact that the RBR is simply a far better and faster car. So that will mean the engines will have to work harder over time. Not only in the races, but all the FP's and qualifying as well. It might be just 1 or 2% extra, but that might just be the threshold between being reliable and breaking down, which would then be put on RBR by some here, but if that's the case, it's Renault who supplied a product that can't be run at a top level.

 

I will admit: all speculation on my behalf. But the simple "RBR packages their engines too tight" is not flying for me.

Edited by Reddington, 24 October 2018 - 05:16.

[Requiem84]

If RB packages too tight, Renault likely will have warned RB that temps etc are too high.

If they actually warned them, it’s easy for them to shift the blane on RB (we told them so..).

But given that Renault never has said ‘we warned them’, most likely conclusion is that RB run the engine within the given parameters.

[A3]

Hulkenberg has used more engine components than Verstappen.

People can look at Red Bull, but I guess they're trying to avoid grid penalties more than Renault and McLaren.

Verstappen is highly critical of Renault and I guess he has his reasons. Renault has a history of simple incompetence. This time last year they had to scrape parts together to build a replacement engine for Red Bull. Rliability hit Verstappen so hard that Renault vowed to improve Quality Control and make sure Red Bull would get the "best parts". This year they've left crucial engine parts behind in the factory, they'had shipped an incomplete PU to a Grand Prix. On another GP weekend the driveshaft of an engine was damaged when it came out of the crate. I'm sure Max can write a book about it by now. And don't forget how Renault didn't want to change all of Ricciardo's engine components in Germany and he promptly retired with a PU failure.

Take a look at what happened last year:
https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/41955290

and

https://www.autospor...ity-action-plan
And people called Verstappen a car breaker.

It is clear to me that Renault can't handle having a top 3 team as a customer. Maybe they'll do better next year.



We know what's going on with Honda, but when you look at the complete picture Renault simply can't do a season like they're supposed to do.
https://forums.autos...2018/?p=8564369
 

USA:
 
Honda part II
 

Drv           Team           ICE    TC   MGUh  MGUk   ES    CE
Hamilton      Mercedes        3     3     3     2     2     2  
Bottas        Mercedes        4     4     4     3     3     3  
Vettel        Ferrari         3     3     3     2     2     2  
Räikkönen     Ferrari         3     3     3     2     2     2  
Ricciardo     Red Bull        5     5     5     5     4     4  
Verstappen    Red Bull        4     4     4     4     3     3  
Perez         Force India     3     3     3     2     2     2  
Ocon          Force India     3     3     3     2     2     2  
Stroll        Williams        3     3     3     2     2     2  
Sirotkin      Williams        3     3     3     2     2     2  
Hülkenberg    Renault         5     6     5     4     4     4  
Sainz         Renault         4     4     4     3     3     3  
Hartley       Toro Rosso      8º    8º    8º    7º    3     4  
Gasly         Toro Rosso      7º    7º    7º    6º    3     3  
Grosjean      Haas            3     3     3     2     2     2  
Magnussen     Haas            3     3     3     2     2     2  
Alonso        McLaren         4     4     4     4     3     3  
Vandoorne     McLaren         4     4     4     3     3     3  
Ericsson      Sauber          4     3     3     2     3     2  
Leclerc       Sauber          3     3     3     2     2     2  

ICE:  Internal Combustion Engine
TC:   Turbo Charger
MGUh: Motor Generation Unit (heat)
MGUk: Motor Generation Unit (kinetic)
ES:   Energy Store
CE:   Control Electronics
º Change since last GP

Edited by A3, 24 October 2018 - 06:39.