1474 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Due to the last thread going a bit too long and getting out of hand, we’ll have a clean slate for the final races of the season.

This is the place to discuss Red Bull Racing’s current teammate lineup and battle, and not to discuss their respective fan bases, which seems to be a problem around here of late.

Let’s give one of the most exciting driver pairings of Formula 1 the send off they deserve.

[ernestomodena]

MV vs DR over their almost 3 years is also super close now.

 

MV left, DR right:

 

56 races

 

Points: 575 vs 566

Wins: 5 vs 4

Podiums: 20 vs 19

DNFs: 13 vs 14 (I counted Max in Silverstone DNFing late in the race as a DNF)

Qualifying: 33 vs 23

 

1st: 5 vs 4

2nd: 8 vs 5

3rd: 7 vs 10

4th: 6 vs 9

5th: 10 vs 7

6th: 2 vs 4

7th: 1 vs 2

8th: 1 vs 1

9th: 1 vs 0

10th: 1 vs 0

 

Some nice statistics from the 2.

 

Verstappen now has surpased Daniel in leading laps by number and mileage.

 

Daniel has this year 8 retirements that's the same number as he finished 13th in his career.

[Laptom]

An impressive overview between the 2. This really shows how closely they are matched between the two and in my view the best combination on the grid for the last few years.

 

This year it was absolutely not for Ric regarding reliabilty, last year Max received the black cat too many times. This stat shows that in the end there is not much difference between the 2.

What is not visible in the chart is that Ric is much more steadier and that Max has some higher peaks, but also some lower grounds (more variation). If Max can reduce the variation and settle on the higher peaks, he can challenge the current top 2 (Ham & Vet). 

 

I hope Ric can make it work at Renault and the gap between the top 3 will merged for Renault. 

I also hope that Honda can deliver for Max as he earned a good setup for next year to challenge Hamilton.

[A3]

Horner added: "It looks like a clutch issue that looking at the data probably started around lap six.

"It looks similar to the issue Max had on Friday. They need to quarantine it all and get it back to the UK to understand, but that's what is looking like the culprit."

https://www.autospor...-for-mexico-win

[mjjTT]

Looking at Daniel's year in a more positive way,  66% of all his poles and 28% of all his wins were in 2018.

[mjjTT]

Atleast Max has one new record. Most wins without a pole position.

Edited by mjjTT, 29 October 2018 - 13:44.

[Maxioos]

Atleast Max one new record. Most wins without a pole position.

 

I did read yesterday there is one with 6 wins before getting first pole, so not yet. Pole in next 2 races seems out of order, so, he could get joint 6 wins. But looking at last year difference Mexico and last 2 races, this was last podium for the RBR drivers this year i expect. 

[Ivanhoe]

Always a chance of rain at Interlagos.

[mjjTT]

I did read yesterday there is one with 6 wins before getting first pole, so not yet. Pole in next 2 races seems out of order, so, he could get joint 6 wins. But looking at last year difference Mexico and last 2 races, this was last podium for the RBR drivers this year i expect. 

 

it was shown during the race and it's on the wiki f1 records page.

[ernestomodena]

Another Stat they now both have is equal number of podiums in a season. Last year Daniel did 9 podiums Max has now 9 also,

Edited by ernestomodena, 29 October 2018 - 15:33.

[Maxioos]

it was shown during the race and it's on the wiki f1 records page.

 

https://forums.autos...tics/?p=8575593

 

"Denny Hulme still has that record at 6 wins without a pole. He finally scored his first pole in Argentina 1973 and then won two more races after that." 

 

"

[zanquis]

I did read yesterday there is one with 6 wins before getting first pole, so not yet. Pole in next 2 races seems out of order, so, he could get joint 6 wins. But looking at last year difference Mexico and last 2 races, this was last podium for the RBR drivers this year i expect.

The record will be lost as soon as he ever gets a pole

[MaximumSpeed]

Is that a good record to have or not? (slow car, still winning)

[bibliophagos]

https://forums.autos...tics/?p=8575593

"Denny Hulme still has that record at 6 wins without a pole. He finally scored his first pole in Argentina 1973 and then won two more races after that."

"

Yes, but in this instance they did not mean wins before achieving pole, but wins without poles at all. So when Max gets one pole, he loses the record again.

[zanquis]

So with 2 races to go.. will we get a race for proper comparison or will something mess it up again, either they run into trouble or other cars limit a drivers race pace or they crashed out together on the track that has the most insane slipstream/DRS making it hard to drive away from each other.

[Dave Ware]

Actually Denny’s single pole position came at South Africa in 1973. 🙂

[Jbleroi]

who cares about those records...... 

 

max is the youngest ever who won the same GP in two consecutive years 

[Requiem84]

Ricciardo seemed to imply that the bad start was not his own mistake when he said ‘his car was all over the place at the start’. Edit: Ricciardo’s quote in this respect:

He said: "Helpless I think is the best word. Even today, the starts have been good all weekend, the practice starts, and for the race start, it's all over the place.

"Just things are happening on Sunday which I've got no more explanation for. The car... I'll let Gasly drive it, I'm done with it."

But now I read this comment from Helmut:

"He had a bad start, but that was nothing technical, just procedure," said Marko.

So Ricciardo blaming the car for a personal mistake? Jeez that’s really unheard of.

Edited by Requiem84, 29 October 2018 - 15:49.

[Kao18]

So with 2 races to go.. will we get a race for proper comparison or will something mess it up again, either they run into trouble or other cars limit a drivers race pace or they crashed out together on the track that has the most insane slipstream/DRS making it hard to drive away from each other.

 

I think Mexico was a good race to compare.

 

The other cars limiting a drivers pace thing is really no excuse, especially not if you are starting from pole. They began the race practically side by side and when Dan retired Max was more than one full stop ahead. Out of 61 laps Max was the quicker one 47 times. There really is nothing more to it.

 

Dan had a good race including a nice pass on Lewis and I feel sorry for him he retired that close to the finish but comparing these two should not be about sympathy.

[SenorSjon]

So with 2 races to go.. will we get a race for proper comparison or will something mess it up again, either they run into trouble or other cars limit a drivers race pace or they crashed out together on the track that has the most insane slipstream/DRS making it hard to drive away from each other.

 

Well, we could compare them this race? http://en.mclarenf-1...aniel Ricciardo

Halfway the race, Verstappen had enough margin for a free pitstop and did one to cover Vettel. 

 

Ricciardo seemed to imply that the bad start was not his own mistake when he said ‘his car was all over the place at the start’.

But now I read this comment from Helmut:

So Ricciardo blaming the car for a personal mistake? Jeez that’s really unheard of.

 

I don't think Ricciardo is loving the RB14 so pins everything on it from now on. 

[Maxioos]

Yesterday i only had live-timing and F1 app/bbc commentary, now seen whole race. I have no doubt Ric. would have kept P2. Vettel only lost time on Max after Ric. his DNF. He didn't had tire life anymore to attack Ric. successful imo.

[A3]

Really? Max stopped twice, Dan once. Dan had to defend a lot. I’m confident Max had the better pace, but it’s not fair to compare.

[Requiem84]

Looked to me on Live Timing DR had better tire life on the US. Pretty good pace on his inlap compared to Max. He’s generally still a bit stronger on the end of a stint on the softer compounds.

[Maxioos]

Really? Max stopped twice, Dan once. Dan had to defend a lot. I’m confident Max had the better pace, but it’s not fair to compare.

 

I don't understand (edit: now do, you respond on other postings, not mine), i'm talking about Ric. his chance defending against Vettel. I see no indication he would have lost p2 on Vettel looking to Ric. his pace before DNF and Vettel time's last 10 laps.

 

Ric. - Vettel http://en.mclarenf-1...aniel Ricciardo

 

I agree Max had better pace, but the comparison shows Vettel didn't had massive speed end race.

 

Ric. knew only on lap 50 (Max his stop and team concluded, tires where still fine) he would go for a one stop, it's not like Max got the pitstop advantage because Ric. already was tire saving. So, speed difference until that moment is full valid to compare imo.

 

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...=Max Verstappen

Edited by Maxioos, 29 October 2018 - 16:12.

[enjoyingRBR]

Ok, What i dont understand is this...

Why do we see so many times:  "When will we ever be able the really compare these two?, AGAIN a race without comparisons...."

 

Most people then start to talk about who is quicker during certain parts of the race...

After so many races between them, everybody should see by now... THATS NOT IT... They both are quite equal in that compartment.

 

There are so many things that are more important comparing these two than racepace..

 

In random order: 

Qualification

Mistakes/errors

Starts

Overtaking

Defending.

 

But most of us keep talking about racepace, its bullocks...

 

The Bottasses en raikoninens are just ****ing up your racepace when you fail to be infront of them at or just after the start.

And for me Thats the only reason to conclude after these guys being together so long:

Max has learned enough from his mistakes in the past and really has surpassed Daniel in multiple aspects being an f1 driver. 

 

I feel sympathie for Dan, i really do.

But people saying we couldn't compare them AGAIN are just wrong

[zanquis]

Looked to me on Live Timing DR had better tire life on the US. Pretty good pace on his inlap compared to Max. He’s generally still a bit stronger on the end of a stint on the softer compounds.

Tbh this has been said before but the few times we had, Max showed the better tire life preservation compared to Dan. There is nothing left to prove that Max still is a bit stronger than max near end of stint, only Dan used to be too conservative in the past where he would lose 10s to Max to fain maybe 5s back near the end. That has not happened in a long time even if Dan finished.

[MastaKink]

Ricciardo seemed to imply that the bad start was not his own mistake when he said ‘his car was all over the place at the start’. Edit: Ricciardo’s quote in this respect:
But now I read this comment from Helmut:
So Ricciardo blaming the car for a personal mistake? Jeez that’s really unheard of.

 

Can't really blame Dan for questioning the feeling around the start when his clutch gives out just 6 laps later. 

 

Starts aren't a big strength compared to Max so I understand questioning it but it's a bit coinky dinky for the clutch to go just a few laps later, no?

[Nemo1965]

I have to ask. Is there any difference in procedural (setting clutch points for example) or set up that could explain the idiotic difference regarding reliability of Verstappen and RIcciardo?

 

When Brabham and Renault were strong in the 80's, one knew that one driver (Piquet or Prost) was favoured which meant that the other driver was basically driving a test-car. But I do not believe Red Bull are going for that approach. And regarding Renault or Red Bull sabotating Daniel, that is too idiotic to contemplate.

 

But pure coincidence, no, that is just too hard for me to believe. 

[Maxioos]

Can't really blame Dan for questioning the feeling around the start when his clutch gives out just 6 laps later. 

 

Starts aren't a big strength compared to Max so I understand questioning it but it's a bit coinky dinky for the clutch to go just a few laps later, no?

 

I fully expect Max would give same remarks ar Ric. did, if not worse. I also fully can accept the possibility it wasn't working 100%, just on the fact it broke some laps later and Ric. his statement. It's for sure possible, but would it had made much difference in outcome, i doubt it, Max his pace this weekend was truly great.

 

Also, Ric. his tire management second stint was also great and similar as Max previous races where Max was praised for that. Overall, i found Ric. his performance level slightly higher than last couple races, that's nice to see, not giving up driving at p5 but (after motivated by pitt-wall was my indication) fighting back to podium. He really could use this Q win, it was a hard lose for Max, but by that also a very big win for Ric. for his confidence and preparation next year. 

 

For next year preparation i think he should some + focus on start and first lap like he did this year on Q. Q focus didn't pay out (YET), could just be that he did increase that performance but because Max increased more it's only visible next year against other driver how good his Q still is. But bad starts next year can be killing, but i think he knows that.

[rkrp]

Ricciardo forgot how to start just like Webber back in the days And he also had a young collegue who was teams favourite.
RUN DANNY! RUN!!!
 

[CharlesWinstone]

Really? Max stopped twice, Dan once. Dan had to defend a lot. I’m confident Max had the better pace, but it’s not fair to compare.

Comparing lap times seldom gives reliable information. Dan was many laps following other cars and Max was more or less cruising from at least half way the race.
But you certainly can compare them. Starting next to each and nobody in front of them. After a few laps it was already clear who was performing better.

[A3]

Can't really blame Dan for questioning the feeling around the start when his clutch gives out just 6 laps later. 
 
Starts aren't a big strength compared to Max so I understand questioning it but it's a bit coinky dinky for the clutch to go just a few laps later, no?

Uhm, they noticed the start of the problem around lap 6. Dan did 2 stops and 61 laps with that clutch. It did not give out 6 laps into the race.

Besides, when he made those comments the team had no idea yet what the issue was.

Edited by A3, 29 October 2018 - 19:27.

[A3]

I have to ask. Is there any difference in procedural (setting clutch points for example) or set up that could explain the idiotic difference regarding reliability of Verstappen and RIcciardo?

Nope. Same question was asked halfway through 2017 when Verstappen was hit with more reliability issues than Dan.

Don't forget that both cars suffered the same issue this weekend. Verstappen was lucky that it happened to him in free practice.

The only thing that I'm curious about is if the team checked Dan's car and why they did not change the part on his car that failed on Max's car. Maybe that would have given him a penalty, I don't know.

Max's gearbox was replaced without a penalty.

Edited by A3, 29 October 2018 - 19:35.

[v@sh]

Ricciardo forgot how to start just like Webber back in the days And he also had a young collegue who was teams favourite.
RUN DANNY! RUN!!!
 

 

Danny's starts are way better than Webbs. Webber was back to P8 by the first corner, at least DR was only back 2 spots on the longest straight on the calendar 

[Ivanhoe]

The only thing that I'm curious about is if the team checked Dan's car and why they did not change the part on his car that failed on Max's car. Maybe that would have given him a penalty,

They probably thought it was a one off, as they could replace it without a penalty under the regulations:

9.5.2 In this context the following parts are not considered part of the gearbox and may be changed without incurring a penalty under the F1 Sporting Regulations. If changing any of these parts involves breaking an FIA applied seal this may be done but must be carried out under FIA supervision :

a) The clutch assembly and the power unit output shaft, provided this is located prior to any mechanical speed reduction from the engine.

[Ramon69]

The weekend goes to Max, he was top notch from Friday to Sunday (Pole was lost by a very small margin), however, Daniel wasn't bad by any means, but that terrible luck tho.. unbelievable really. I believe that both could have been on the podium.

[Maxioos]

From the 78 possible team finishes last and this season combined there have been 25 DNF's/no points (Mercedes 4, Ferrari 10). That's far to high to fight championship. They have to check all there procedures and controle workings. As long you place it under "luck" you don't think something is wrong, so no need to fix, but there is no such thing as luck if others can show far better reliability, than it's a structural problem in the production and controle procedures imo.  

 

They fixed their "not ready at start season" this year, now fixing reliability should get focus imo. To fight for championship, you have to score each GP with current reliability and consistency of the competitors. 

[gowebber]

So if Dan's clutch problem started around lap 6 according to Horner how much impact was that having on his lap times?

Edited by gowebber, 29 October 2018 - 21:03.

[Maxioos]

The weekend goes to Max, he was top notch from Friday to Sunday (Pole was lost by a very small margin), however, Daniel wasn't bad by any means, but that terrible luck tho.. unbelievable really. I believe that both could have been on the podium.

 

That's no question or "believe". If car didn't broke he would be on podium 100% and imo. for 98% sure second. It's very sad he, his fans and team didn't get that. Would be interesting on podium, that would have mixed emotions you would expect, missing/losing win, but podium, possible last for some time and 1-2 for team. Totally "dutch" podium (nice podium imo) with Dutch sponsor and one of Dutch biggest world entertainers. I think Dan would have partied with Max. Now Max was alone with Van Buuren, but i think if Ric. would have been p2, he would have been next to Max, unlike Vettel/Kimi.

[acf69]

Well done to Max for the whole weekend. Nothing to be ashamed of to literally loose out to Dan with minimal margin for the pole. Also well done to Dan for showing he still has a fight in him getting pole.

 

As for the race, it was interesting to see the facial expressions of both of them before the start. You could see Max was angry and locked in, while Dan was winking and very relaxed. Maybe the respective starts reflect this.

 

I think Dan's race was very underrated and typical for him. He would have had P2 if not for the mechanical, and maybe he nursed his tires when Vettel passed him, and I don't believe Vettel would have passed him a second time. Dan lost it at the start.

[RobG]

I doubt there was any honestly. I think we would have heard some messages of Daniel during the race, and don't think I ever heard something about losing race pace due a problematic clutch. With clutch problems it's usually problematic when accelerating from zero. Or just breaking down completely.
I wonder what they saw on Daniel's clutch, temperatures too high, or some actual slipping of a clutch?

[RPM40]

Well done to Max for the whole weekend. Nothing to be ashamed of to literally loose out to Dan with minimal margin for the pole. Also well done to Dan for showing he still has a fight in him getting pole.

 

As for the race, it was interesting to see the facial expressions of both of them before the start. You could see Max was angry and locked in, while Dan was winking and very relaxed. Maybe the respective starts reflect this.

 

I think Dan's race was very underrated and typical for him. He would have had P2 if not for the mechanical, and maybe he nursed his tires when Vettel passed him, and I don't believe Vettel would have passed him a second time. Dan lost it at the start.

 

I feel Red Bull missed a trick by not undercutting Hamilton in the first stop. It slowed Dan down a lot stuck behind the Merc and would have put Max in a position he'd end up behind if he two stopped. 

[RPM40]

I saw this post regarding the pair of drivers:

 

Belgium: Ricciardo had his rear wing damaged in the first corner chaos. However, him running into Raikkonen and damaging his own front wing seemed completely independent of the other incident, so I'm not going to erase the second collision (meaning Ricciardo still damages his front wing and pits for repairs). Bottas also damaged his car in Turn 1 and would have likely raced Ricciardo for 5th/6th places once Raikkonen is reinstated ahead of them (I've given Kimi 3rd place, ahead of Verstappen). Ricciardo qualified ahead of Bottas, but Bottas didn't take part in Q3 due to engine penalties so that's not a fair comparison. However, Bottas took an eternity to climb through the field and also picked up a 5 second time penalty along the way due to the earlier collision. I very tentatively give Ricciardo 5th and Bottas 6th, but you could easily reverse those positions.

Italy: Ricciardo doesn't attempt to qualify due to engine penalties then retires mid-way through the race. Verstappen under-performed in Q3 (3 tenths off his own Q2 pace) and picked up a 5 second time penalty during the race after squeezing Bottas off under braking for Turn 1, which might indicate Ricciardo would have beaten him. However, Ricciardo's pace in clear air was quite poor though this could simply be due to him pushing less hard to preserve his tyres for later overtakes. I tentatively give Ricciardo the nod here, and actually think he should be put into 4th place ahead of Vettel (in the post u/whatthefat linked to I had Ricciardo 5th instead), with Verstappen demoted to 6th.

Russia: Neither driver attempts to qualify properly due to engine penalties; Verstappen faster in Q1 but starts behind Ricciardo after picking up an additional penalty for ignoring Yellow Flags. Verstappen makes a much better start and jumps Ricciardo immediately, and gains significantly more ground on the opening lap before Ricciardo's front wing is damaged by some debris. Ricciardo's pace in the final stint once his wing was repaired was quite poor, but he had nothing to race for at that point being some 40 seconds behind Verstappen, so it's probably not all that relevant. Verstappen's amazing start means I'm inclined to give this one to Verstappen. There is the possibility that one or both Red Bull drivers could have fought with Ferrari given their pace in Q1 and Verstappen's pace during the race, however, Vertsappen's additional 3 place grid penalty makes this a lot less likely, thus Vertsappen is 5th with Ricciardo 6th.

Japan: Ricciardo's car fails in Q2, leaving him 15th on the grid. Had he had a clean run through qualifying I suspect he would have qualified 4th and ahead of Raikkonen, since Kimi made a big mistake in his only Q3 run and was almost half a second off Verstappen. Verstappen's mistake on Lap 1 and subsequent penalty should then drop him behind Ricciardo. Additionally, Raikkonen's pace was hampered by Verstappen knocking his barge-board off during their collision, and I'm assuming his pace with a perfect car would be enough to keep him close enough to Verstappen to pass him in the pits with the penalty. So I have Ricciardo 3rd, Raikkonen 4th, Verstappen 5th.

USA: Ricciardo was running ahead of Verstappen when he retired early in the race, so we kind of have no choice but to assume he would have finished ahead (and thus 2nd overall, with Verstappen 3rd).

This results in Ricciardo leading Verstappen 230-194 in points, though he trails 8-10 in races.

As a thought experiment we can give Ricciardo the (within reason) worst-case-scenario result whenever the case is ambiguous (and the best case-scenario for Verstappen) to see if that is enough for Verstappen to stay ahead in the points standings:

The first ambiguous case is Austria, where I have assumed a VSC comes out as in reality (even though I'm pretending Bottas wasn't the cause of it), assumed Bottas' race would then mirror Hamilton's, and assumed neither would pass Ricciardo in the closing stages. Here I instead assume Ricciardo will be passed by the two Mercedes cars and thus finishes 6th. Germany is the next ambiguous case, however, I've already assumed Verstappen would beat Ricciardo this race so there is nothing I can realistically do to change the result from my original analysis.

In Hungary Verstappen retired very early and I assumed he would simply finish in front of Ricciardo. I mentioned the possibility of him beating Raikkonen too given the latter's nonsensical strategy, so here I'll promote Verstappen into 3rd. Beating Vettel for 2nd is unlikely even when being extremely generous, so 3rd is all I'm giving him. In Belgium I'll award Bottas 5th and Ricciardo 6th, and also promote Verstappen to 3rd ahead of Raikkonen. In Italy I'll assume Ricciardo is not able to beat Verstappen even with the penalty, so Ricciardo is 6th. For Japan I'll assume he is unable to out-qualify Raikkonen, and then stays behind him all race to finish 5th, with Verstappen ahead in 3rd place. Lastly in the US GP Ricciardo was running behind Bottas when he retired, so for the worst-case scenario we'll assume he would finish behind too (thus 6th place).

In this heavily skewed scenario Verstappen leads 13-5 in races and the pair are tied on 207 points.

This second analysis is about as skewed towards Verstappen as you could make it without making frankly ridiculous calls, and it isn't enough for Verstappen to maintain his points lead. Thus even allowing for me having made bad calls or mistakes in my main analysis I feel quite confident in saying Ricciardo should be leading Verstappen in the points at this stage of the season, but probably not by much and almost certainly trailing in the race head-to-head tally.

However, it is important to remember just how bad Verstappen's start to the season was; 5 of Ricciardo's 8 'wins' in their head-to-head tally came from the first 6 races. From Canada onward Verstappen has clearly been the stronger driver, I have him leading 9-3 in races and 162-135 in points in this period (in the 'fair' analysis. the skewed one is even more in his favour of course).

 

 

https://www.reddit.c...en_max/e8haei3/

 

 

Seems a good summary of their season leading up to Mexico

[CharlesWinstone]

An earlier stop would have ment a two stop for Dan. Besides Max had pace in hand and could look after his tyres for almost the entire race. After 10 laps he build enough a gap to drive it home.

[RPM40]

An earlier stop would have ment a two stop for Dan. Besides Max had pace in hand and could look after his tyres for almost the entire race. After 10 laps he build enough a gap to drive it home.

 

A 2 stop earlier stop would have meant a two stop? I'm not so sure. Dan's tyre management was excellent and showing very little drop off.

[Kao18]

I feel Red Bull missed a trick by not undercutting Hamilton in the first stop. It slowed Dan down a lot stuck behind the Merc and would have put Max in a position he'd end up behind if he two stopped.

Max behind if he had two stopped and Dan once you mean? Why would they have done that in this particular scenario?

[RPM40]

Max behind if he had two stopped and Dan once you mean? Why would they have done that in this particular scenario?

 

Max two stopped to protect against Vettel. Even then he only had 6 seconds over Dan at the stop, who had been stuck behind Hamilton all race. It would have put them in an interesting situation with Dan well inside that pit window.

[Kao18]

A 2 stop earlier stop would have meant a two stop? I'm not so sure. Dan's tyre management was excellent and showing very little drop off.

They only decided to keep Dan out because they saw Max' tires were still in very good condition after his second stop.

[CharlesWinstone]

A 2 stop earlier stop would have meant a two stop? I'm not so sure. Dan's tyre management was excellent and showing very little drop off.

Thats hindside and even then we dont know if he would manage to the end. On forehand it would be a long shot. Tyres where dropping off all weekend and sending Dan of for a 50 lap stint was not a call a strategist could make.

Edited by CharlesWinstone, 29 October 2018 - 21:58.

[RPM40]

Thats hindside and even then we dont know if he would manage to the end. On forehand it would be a long shot. Tyres where dropping off all weekend and sending Dan of for a 50 lap stint was not a call a strategist could make.

 

Id say his tyre life would have actually been better on that strategy as running in clean air vs the dirty wake of the Mercedes is quite a big benefit.