Jump to content


Photo

Honda F2 Motor 1966


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 06 December 2018 - 16:31

I used a generic description of the motor as its official title RE302E may be confused with the 1968 F1 car.

 

The Japanese model company Ebbro has recently released a very lovely 1/20 scale kit of the Brabham BT 18 Honda F2 from 1966.  The kit does not include or show the ignition or the injection lines where they go into the metering unit for the injector or whatever Honda used in lieu of a rotating distributor.  The engine, like the S800 motor, did not have a typical distributor.  There are additional fuel pump lines I would like to trace as well. It appears that the coolant plumbing is included.

 

To my knowledge, there is the one complete Brabham Honda in the Honda collection.* This car was sent to Honda after the 1966 season.  The on-line photos are either showing the car closed in the museum or the exhaust side which does not show the ignition/injection source points.   There is a second motor, a cut-away motor in the collection but the on-line photos of it are of the right exhaust side with no lines or wires attached. 

 

* Brabham ran two cars.  After the 1966 season F2 went to the 1.6 liter formula and Honda left on a high note.  (If you see a video of the car, it was a very high note)  The second factory team car was recently for sale with a Lotus Twin Cam in.  Other BT18's were sold to customers.  I assume in 1966, these would have likely used Cosworth FCA or BRM P80's.

 

Considering Honda's overwhelming success in 1966 F2, I am surprised not much can be found on this motor.  BTW, this motor is very different from that which was used in the BT16 in 1965.


Edited by DavidLayton, 06 December 2018 - 16:35.


Advertisement

#2 RogerFrench

RogerFrench
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 06 December 2018 - 16:58

I don't know about this engine but the S800 had a very normal distributor mounted horizontally at the forward end of the camcover and driven by the inlet cam shaft.

#3 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 06 December 2018 - 17:48

I used a generic description of the motor as its official title RE302E may be confused with the 1968 F1 car.

 

 

RA302E, no?

 

The Japanese mags and books (sorry to be obvious) are pretty good at showing the nitty gritty details on this kind of thing. I'll see what I can find in my collection...



#4 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 06 December 2018 - 18:10

This is the cutaway RA302E in the Honda Collection Hall:

 

tu1uKg.jpg

 

(Image: 'Morio')



#5 MarkBisset

MarkBisset
  • Member

  • 141 posts
  • Joined: September 15

Posted 06 December 2018 - 20:50

David,
I wrote a short article several years ago about the Brabham Hondas but i struggled to find engine 'nitty gritty' too- interested to see what pops up
Mark
https://primotipo.co...brabham-hondas/

#6 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,737 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 07 December 2018 - 04:38

WHAT ARE THE PAIRED LARGE BOLTS ?

 

about the middle going up at an angle above between the ext ports



#7 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 63,359 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:29

It must have had a bunch of compression to justify that size of starter motor!

 

A lovely little engine, there's not much size in that clutch.



#8 Pat Clarke

Pat Clarke
  • Member

  • 2,607 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 07 December 2018 - 07:20

WHAT ARE THE PAIRED LARGE BOLTS ?

 

about the middle going up at an angle above between the ext ports

I seem to recall this engine used torsion bar valve springs. The bolts would possibly be the 'stops' for these bars.

 

Pat



#9 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 13,511 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:30

I don't know about this engine but the S800 had a very normal distributor mounted horizontally at the forward end of the camcover and driven by the inlet cam shaft.

 

The F2 engine had nothing to do with the S800 unit.



#10 Cirrus

Cirrus
  • Member

  • 1,689 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:28

For some reason I can't post pictures even though they appear fine in previews.

 

This is a shot of the early Honda F2 engine being installed at MRD

 

Here's another one

 

and here's the later, much neater engine



#11 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,571 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:18

Alan, the problems you’re having embedding images in posts are because you’re trying to embed them from non-secure sites - those whose URLs start with ‘http:’. Secure sites have URLs which start with ‘https:’. The forum software was changed in June - see this explanatory thread in the Website Feedback forum:

Autosport forums are now fully HTTPS

:)

#12 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:00

Honda showed one of the cars at the Tokyo Motor Show in November 1966.

 

Some press coverage in period Japanese mags (Auto Sport and Motor Fan):

 

m9NFyO.jpg


P33OnJ.jpg


0KdYZD.jpg

 

Apologies for the low quality.



#13 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:41

To clarify, the 1965 season engine was the 'RA300E' and the 1966 season engine was the 'RA302E'

 

RA300E:

4cyl DOHC,16 valve, 996cc.

72.0mm bore x 61.2mm stroke.

10.5:1 compression, 20.4m/sec average piston speed.   

135hp @ 10,000rpm.

Weight 145kg.

 

RA302E:

4cyl DOHC, 16 valve, 993cc

78.0mm bore x 52.0mm stroke.

10.5:1 compression, 19.06m/sec average piston speed.

150hp @ 11,000rpm.

Weight 145kg.



#14 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 07 December 2018 - 13:44

'Auto Sport Historic' magazine used a small, uncredited, cutaway to illustrate the RA302E in their excellent 'Honda S800 Racers' magazine/book 'Mook' in 2011 (ISBN978-4-7796-1205-3).

 

I'm sure I've seen a similar cutaway in another Japanese publication, but I can't find it now.

 

MtnWoC.jpg


kvw4YA.jpg



#15 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,294 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 07 December 2018 - 15:24

As far as I can see, only four Brabhams were ever equipped with these engines:

 

Brabham BT16 F2-11-65 - raced by Jack Brabham in 1965.  Unknown after 1965.

 

Brabham BT18 F2-18-66 - raced by Jack Brabham in 1966, up to Rouen in July, then sold to Kevin Murphy in Ireland for 1967 (without the Honda engine of course)

 

Brabham BT18 F2-19-66 - raced by Denny Hulme in 1966, up to Le Mans-Bugatti in September, then by Chris Irwin in three late-season races.  Presumably the Honda museum BT18 that was at Goodwood in 2005.

 

Brabham BT21 F2-20-66 - raced by Jack Brabham from Karlskoga in August 1966 onwards, then sold to John Kendall for F3 in 1967 (again, without the Honda engine).



#16 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 5,008 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 07 December 2018 - 16:05

It must have had a bunch of compression to justify that size of starter motor!

 

A lovely little engine, there's not much size in that clutch.

Umm..Could have used it as a generator and additional traction motor  too!



#17 StanBarrett2

StanBarrett2
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 07 December 2018 - 16:20



I seem to recall this engine used torsion bar valve springs. The bolts would possibly be the 'stops' for these bars.

 

Pat

Yes, looks like they are the end caps for the torsion bar housings...............just wonder how that all worked ?

Honda-RA302-E-kopie.jpg


Edited by StanBarrett2, 07 December 2018 - 16:21.


#18 RogerFrench

RogerFrench
  • Member

  • 577 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 07 December 2018 - 16:42

The F2 engine had nothing to do with the S800 unit.


I know, I was responding to the original post.

#19 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 63,359 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:57

The torsion bar valve return system always had me intrigued...

 

What a shame air pressure came along, maybe someone else would have done this?



Advertisement

#20 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 07 December 2018 - 23:44

Interesting shot of the show car with the sparkplug wires going forward.  This 1966 race car, the ignition wires go back aside the fuel metering unit. This is Denny's car at Pau. Note the silencer. Assume this was needed outside of race times. You can also see the spark wires going straight back in the You Tube Video of the engine being started.honda-big-exhaust.jpg


Edited by DavidLayton, 08 December 2018 - 16:12.


#21 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 13,511 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:16

As far as I can see, only four Brabhams were ever equipped with these engines:

 

Brabham BT16 F2-11-65 - raced by Jack Brabham in 1965.  Unknown after 1965.

 

Brabham BT18 F2-18-66 - raced by Jack Brabham in 1966, up to Rouen in July, then sold to Kevin Murphy in Ireland for 1967 (without the Honda engine of course)

 

Brabham BT18 F2-19-66 - raced by Denny Hulme in 1966, up to Le Mans-Bugatti in September, then by Chris Irwin in three late-season races.  Presumably the Honda museum BT18 that was at Goodwood in 2005.

 

Brabham BT21 F2-20-66 - raced by Jack Brabham from Karlskoga in August 1966 onwards, then sold to John Kendall for F3 in 1967 (again, without the Honda engine).

 

Wasn't the engine installed in the Brabham mule chassis for testing before it went into the BT16?



#22 Paul Hamilton

Paul Hamilton
  • Member

  • 417 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:26

For some reason I can't post pictures even though they appear fine in previews.
 
This is a shot of the early Honda F2 engine being installed at MRD
 
Here's another one
 
and here's the later, much neater engine


Can anyone identify the gearbox fitted to the car shown in these photographs?

#23 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:41

It must have had a bunch of compression to justify that size of starter motor!

 

A lovely little engine, there's not much size in that clutch.

I think the perceived starter motor size is an optical effect because the diameter of the exhaust pipes is large too. Ditto for the cylinder head accessory overhang. Which means that the clutch diameter was even smaller than it looks.



#24 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:01

Can anyone identify the gearbox fitted to the car shown in these photographs?

According to David Layton's photo, the gearbox has a familiar large H label on it. 

 

The engine sub-frame compared with that in PZR's photos suggests different generations of chassis.



#25 StanBarrett2

StanBarrett2
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:26



Can anyone identify the gearbox fitted to the car shown in these photographs?

According to a Hewland piece in Autosport...a Mk7

Hewland-3.jpg



#26 Paul Hamilton

Paul Hamilton
  • Member

  • 417 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 08 December 2018 - 15:49

According to a Hewland piece in Autosport...a Mk7
Hewland-3.jpg


But the car in post #10 is not fitted with a Hewland and also has significant frame differences.

#27 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 08 December 2018 - 18:04

RA302E + transmission on Honda display stand at the Tokyo Motor Show, November 1966:

 

zTteOA.jpg



#28 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 08 December 2018 - 18:27

Well that explains the wrong direction of the ignition wires.  I am very curious as to the distributor that would be at the base of the rear of the block.  Interesting to note that this engine appears to be monochromatic as opposed to the metallic gray block and gold head components.  I hope to find photos of the operating car's motor and the clear photos from 1966. 



#29 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 08 December 2018 - 18:38

In addition to the engine mysteries, I hope to find a good set of photos of an undressed BT18 F2 to map the fuel lines between the fuel tanks and the fuel pump.  I have the brake lines worked out.  Once I have the documentation worked out, I plan to do a build blog on building this kit.

 

This kit has 4 ancillary items on the frame on the left side of the motor beneath the intakes:  2 coils, Water Reserve Tank, Fuel Pump and what could be an oil filter attached to the frame with 4 hoses running through the fitting.  See this photo from an earlier post showing what appears to be the oil filter prominently:   http://www.historicf...amper/TNF11.jpg

 

 

 

 

TNF11.jpg


Edited by DavidLayton, 08 December 2018 - 18:40.


#30 StanBarrett2

StanBarrett2
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 08 December 2018 - 19:34

But the car in post #10 is not fitted with a Hewland and also has significant frame differences.

Yes of course, I was a bit over enthuiastic posting, should have said ........ for the races they used Hewlands



#31 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,779 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 December 2018 - 10:09

It is usually said that the Cosworth DFV and FVA were first to adopt the narrow valve ange/ 4 valve per cylinder configuration. Others point out that the Weslake V12 was first, but did Honda beat both of them?

#32 PZR

PZR
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 09 December 2018 - 12:50

A couple more from the 1966 Tokyo Motor Show:

 

ooWRsk.jpg


Gtk20j.jpg



#33 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 December 2018 - 20:38

Good photo.  Shows 2 of the 4 injection lines going from the intakes down.  I suspect there is a valve panel on the metering pump similar to the Kugelfischer on a BMW 2002tii.  The Throttle linkage is the line arcing around the metering unit on the rear of the left cam.  As seen in the phot from Pau and if you see the YouTube video of the surviving car being started in the garage in Motegi, the ignition wires go directly back into the undefined.  On the video, the wires are aligned in a row rather than in a circle, which makes me wonder if there was a transistor board (it was the 60's) in lieu of a distributor.  These go into a covered area not seen in the Pau photo but past the metal clip in the Pau photo. 

 

 



#34 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 63,359 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 December 2018 - 20:49

Do we know the firing order, just out of interest's sake?

 

It must be either 1-3-4-2 or 1-2-4-3.



#35 rl1856

rl1856
  • Member

  • 190 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 09 December 2018 - 22:25

Wonder how a pair of these, bored out to 1.5L each, and joined with a common crank would have performed ?   All in a package scarcely bigger than the F2 chassis.  Certainly lighter and smaller then their V12 and Honda (later Hond-ola) package.....     Guess we will never know.



#36 StanBarrett2

StanBarrett2
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 09 December 2018 - 22:32

Wonder how a pair of these, bored out to 1.5L each, and joined with a common crank would have performed ?   All in a package scarcely bigger than the F2 chassis.  Certainly lighter and smaller then their V12 and Honda (later Hond-ola) package.....     Guess we will never know.

Honda hachi ache



#37 DavidLayton

DavidLayton
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:03

Here is a bit of a 'money shot'  The 4 ignition wires appear to go into the block next to the coolant line.  I also see the 4 fuel lines going into the fuel pump similar to the BMW Kugelfischer on the lower right and I found the same part on the kit!  The throttle linkage is also very well displayed.  I found this on Facebook and it ties to a French site on Monthlery.  I can also trace the throttle line to the front pedal bulkhead, the use of black rubber brake lines and the tach cable going to the pick up on the front of the left cam which is a kit part.

 

https://www.facebook...?type=3

 

 

A picture of the model itself.

 

https://www.facebook...&type=3


Edited by DavidLayton, 10 December 2018 - 04:10.