88 replies to this topic

[Regazzoni]

The top ten (eleven) list of the Italian diaspora looks quite compelling:

 

Juan Manuel Fangio

Rudolf Caracciola

Mario Andretti

Emerson Fittipaldi

Clay Regazzoni

Dario Franchitti

Daniel Ricciardo

Rubens Barrichello

Raffaele De Palma

Dario Resta

Jean Alesi

 

(I am sure I am missing someone)

[subh]

What about Teo Fabi?? He was really quick in qualifying.

Plus his records in F2, Indycar and Endurance should not be overlooked.

[noikeee]

1. Alberto Ascari
2. Elio de Angelis
3. Giuseppe Farina
4. Riccardo Patrese
5. Luigi Musso
6. Jarno Trulli
7. Michele Alboreto
8. Luigi Villoresi
9. Giancarlo Fisichella
10. Luigi Fagioli

This was really tough because pretty much everyone bar Ascari is thereabouts at the same level, plus there's lots of drivers from the 50s that I had to do a little research on their results, and am still unsure whether I rated them right.

Also there's a few drivers here that were great at times and rubbish other times! Alboreto's long decline and Patrese's dismal final 2 seasons come to mind - but they were MUCH better earlier on.

Edited by noikeee, 17 December 2018 - 15:07.

[aportinga]

Ha, interesting list, I rate Modena and Martini as underrated 80/90s midfielders, but VERY bold to put them ahead of Nannini and Alboreto! Bold to put de Angelis ahead of world champion Farina too, but possibly fair. Trulli and Fisichella quite possibly deserve mentions too. I'll do my list later, this is a difficult one with lots of drivers around the same level..

And did you forget Riccardo Patrese?

 

Yeah...

 

Truli and Patrese in particular.

 

And I would rate Alboreto higher.

 

I am very surprised no Varzi and Nuvolari on there!

Edited by aportinga, 17 December 2018 - 15:38.

[sopa]

1. Ascari

 

 

The other 9 drivers are just in chronological order.

 

Farina - a champion

 

Castellotti - most talented Italian from the 50's apart from Ascari, but got killed.

 

Bandini - ok, but nothing special.

 

Patrese - great longevity, but when push came to shove, never more than a number 2.

 

de Angelis - plenty of people put him into P2, which I think is fair enough considering he beat Mansell and wasn't far off Senna in terms of points. Wonder, how much was in store in him though if he didn't get killed in 1986. Would he have turned into another Alboreto?

 

Alboreto - looked more impressive until including 1985 than afterwards. Unsure, why was that though.

 

Nannini - showed good promise and was getting better each season. Didn't see enough of him.

 

Fisichella - impressive in midfield, but found wanting in a top car (sounds familiar with some above).

 

Trulli - one of the best qualifying drivers in the field.

[ensign14]

If we're going pre-war GP, then your top 10 Italian drivers of all time will be:

 

1. Nuvolari

2. Varzi

3. Ascari Sr

4. Ascari Jr

5. Fagioli

6. Nazzaro

7. Campari

8. Salamano

9. Arcangeli

10. Borzacchini

 

Just ridiculous levels of talent...

[Nemo1965]

Has there been a debate on here anyone can link to (I have never found one) about why Italy has produced so few F1 drivers over the last few decades. it's something that has always surprised me.

 

Funny. I have put this question to several people. Of all those people, two are perhaps interesting. One of them drove in F1 (albeit it always at the back), the other worked in F1 as an high level executive. And I asked them directly about drivers I thought were very good but flunked in F1: Stefano Modena for example.

 

Their answer: many Italian drivers can only perform when everything is just 'so'. The ex-F1 driver said about Stefano: 'If not everything was exactly under his control, he just could not put his mind to it.' The executive said: 'Italian drivers when they come up the ranks always have secret little advantages. Better tires than the competition, better engines, sometimes straightout illegal engines. And it brings them all to F1... and then they flunk. Unless when they find another unfair advantage.' 

 

Regarding Elio: great guy, really. Met him once, in Zandvoort. Superfriendly, soft spoken. But also he is an example of the above: he won the F3 Monaco-race by shoving everybody out of his way. And before the race Carlos Reuteman had set up his car for him. 

Edited by Nemo1965, 17 December 2018 - 16:44.

[noriaki]

If we're going pre-war GP, then your top 10 Italian drivers of all time will be:

1. Nuvolari
2. Varzi
3. Ascari Sr
4. Ascari Jr
5. Fagioli
6. Nazzaro
7. Campari
8. Salamano
9. Arcangeli
10. Borzacchini

Just ridiculous levels of talent...

Salamano and Borzacchini but no Bordino (or even Costantini)?

[Blundle]

Fisichella was quicker than Button, but it’s Button who had a championship ride in the end, after people (British) had long been querying whether he would ever finally made it.

 

 

Fisichella was quicker than Button for a few months in 2001. Button, ultimately, was a superior and quicker Grand Prix driver. He won a world title because he was good enough. Fisichella had world championship winning cars at Renault and never came close. 

[scheivlak]

I launched thread here - https://forums.autos...ts/?hl= italian - in TNF some 11 years ago that you might find to be of some interest.

 

Another earlier thread:  https://forums.autos...ars/?hl=italian

[Regazzoni]

Fisichella was quicker than Button for a few months in 2001. Button, ultimately, was a superior and quicker Grand Prix driver. He won a world title because he was good enough. Fisichella had world championship winning cars at Renault and never came close. 

 

I'll get over this disagreement with you.

[ensign14]

Salamano and Borzacchini but no Bordino (or even Costantini)?

 

Bordino was the next one down.  Lost out because Salamano didn't ever have a bad drive and beat Jimmy Murphy.  Borzacchini was up against much stronger talents than either of them.  Costatini would have been on there if we included non-GP Grandes Epreuves - although I would also then have had to consider Chinetti.

[Regazzoni]

I said above that I didn't particularly rate De Angelis at the time, and living in the UK I discovered that here he had and has a lot of credit because of his track record wrt Mansell at Lotus.

 

I respected him I still believe he was nowhere as quick as Patrese - the Patrese who had some grit, because he too had his blue periods lIke Picasso - or Giacomelli, but I always thought Mansell post-Lotus would have eaten poor Elio alive. I am sorry.. Wonderful guy, Elio, and well accomplished driver, his passing really struck me at the time, I was living in Rome and I recall piazza Esedra completely blocked the day of his funeral, but I think he is way overrated. I put Brambilla above him because Vittorio for a couple of years was capable to be a front runner on a March, a luxury of a car...

[sopa]

 

I respected him I still believe he was nowhere as quick as Patrese - the Patrese who had some grit, because he too had his blue periods lIke Picasso - or Giacomelli, but I always thought Mansell post-Lotus would have eaten poor Elio alive. I am sorry.. Wonderful guy, Elio, and well accomplished driver, his passing really struck me at the time, I was living in Rome and I recall piazza Esedra completely blocked the day of his funeral, but I think he is way overrated. 

 

I think an interesting question would be, how would one rank Alboreto and de Angelis in the early 1980's until and including 1985? They looked good, but... not as quick as Prost, Piquet or peak Rosberg? Admittedly it's pretty hard to rank them though, because there were quite a fair amount of competitive drivers around and with lots of competitive teams as well many got a chance to shine.

 

Interestingly de Angelis reminds me a bit of Button or Heidfeld in more modern terms. Maybe not spectacularly quick, but consistently brings you the points and results. And that would be handy in a championship battle too.

[Regazzoni]

I would agree with you De Angelis reminds of Button in modern terms, or perhaps Perez as a scoring machine. I am not sure, make it I don't think Elio had or would have had (had he lived) the same hunger, always a crucial ingredient to achieve in sport.

 

Alboreto was useful in the first half of the '80s, had few days were he was near untouchable (although I have read a lot of things about his wins for Tyrrell), but, again, he wasn't in the same league as Prost and I did realize that at the time. Personally I still rate Patrese and Giacomelli the two best of those four and, as I said, few things I noticed at the time made me think Bruno was probably the better of the two. At a certain point Patrese settled for number two and I started to reconsider and admire, long after he had retired, Carlos Reutemann, while my interest in Riccardo waned quite a bit. If all that makes sense.

[noriaki]

Bordino was the next one down.  Lost out because Salamano didn't ever have a bad drive and beat Jimmy Murphy.  Borzacchini was up against much stronger talents than either of them.  Costatini would have been on there if we included non-GP Grandes Epreuves - although I would also then have had to consider Chinetti.

 

Admittedly I know nearly nothing about Salamano as a racer apart from his 1923 result so fair enough.

 

I still forgot about one name though. Materassi. Won a boatload of competitive races, and it was only the incompetent AIACR and then dying what prevented him from truly showing his skills in Grandes Epreuves proper. Some would even consider him the top driver of his "era" - while Borzacchini was Bandini to the Clarks of his era if we are generous. Plenty of podiums, and won the Mille Miglia - but apart from beating Arcangeli at Tripoli, he never had another big victory in the GP cars despite being given more than enough shots at it. 

 

Naturally it's difficult to include everyone considering the sheer width of talent there. Brilli-Peri, Masetti, Villoresi, Farina, Taruffi etc. could almost be there as well. 

Edited by noriaki, 17 December 2018 - 21:42.

[Gary Davies]

Fisichella was quicker than Button for a few months in 2001. Button, ultimately, was a superior and quicker Grand Prix driver. He won a world title because he was good enough. Fisichella had world championship winning cars at Renault and never came close. 

That's quite correct. Here's what Nigel Roebuck wrote in "Ask Nigel"* back when Fisi was around his peak, "I'm .....getting a little tired of reading how underrated Giancarlo Fisichella is. I think he is undoubtedly a hugely talented natural driver, but I've never seen him as a racer, quite honestly. Put it this way, if he's in a scrap with someone, I don't expect him to come out on top. I think it's a shame, because there's no doubt he has the ability - but then, to me, the same is also true of his fellow countryman, Jarno Trulli. Flavio Briatore once jokingly

suggested they were interchangeable, and I know what he meant. Very quick, the pair of them, but lacking that indefinable something. Put either of them in a Ferrari or whatever, and of course they'd win races, but neither, so far as I am aware, has ever been invited to join one of the top three teams, and that's not by chance. Take my word for it, Jean Todt, Frank Williams and Ron Dennis are not slow in coming forward if they think they can see a potential World Champion."

 

* Roebuck's "Ask Nigel" was published in Autosport (online) so I'm assuming it's acceptable to quote part of an Autosport item in an Autosport forum. If the moderators dissent from this view, then please exercise rule 303.

Edited by Gary Davies, 18 December 2018 - 07:56.

[Regazzoni]

All very analytical:

 

I've never seen him as a racer - I don't expect him to come out on top - lacking that indefinable something.

 

 

Nigel Roebuck. English journalist. Unconscious bias. Missed Nobel prize.

[messy]

I agree with Roebuck really. Always had a soft spot for Fisichella. I think in terms of natural talent, he was right up there. It was a mentality thing, and I remember an interview with him after his F1 career ended where he said as much - by the time he got the Renault seat, he was already 32/33 and just lacked that drive, desire and force of personality that carried Alonso to such heights in the other car. I think he was a faster, more naturally talented driver than Button, personally. And when the pressure was off in a mid-grid car he was brilliant. But again, Button had the champion mentality, Fisichella didn't. He was at his absolute best in a midfield car, pressure off, the underdog fighting for the odd eye catching result when the opportunity came against the odds. Move him into an environment where success was expected and he was pretty useless. 

[sopa]

Then again Todt, Dennis and Williams hired the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Coulthard and R. Schumacher, who weren't better than the said Italian duo.

[Regazzoni]

Who is to say that Fisichella had he been in a situation like Brawn in 2009 would not have come home a champion?

 

I am not trying to diminish Button, but all that argument above is hindsight, Button didn't succeed with either Williams or McLaren, and Fisichella never had a shot with either of those teams in their prime.

 

And I am not either talking up Fisichella as the next big thing - please read my previous posts here - but you people just can't see the cultural bias at play.

 

Briatore - who as much as I may dislike him, knows a thing or two about drivers, at least as much as Williams and Dennis - didn't rate both Fisichella and Button (un paracarro).

 

I appreciate we may all see it differently, but when I see Roebuck's arguments put forward as "proof" then I am up in arms.

 

There was a thread on TNF, around mid 2000s, where people - British, or Anglo-speaking, who else? - where asking whether Button was another Brambilla (!! - missed the link there, LOL), never to fulfill his alleged potential.

[PlayboyRacer]

Agree totally with Roebuck. Never rated Fisichella, suspect in wheel to wheel duels/combat/actual racing and totally suspect between the ears. Particularly when under pressure and/or expectation.

I group him with the likes of Ralf Schumacher, Frentzen, Coulthard, Barrichello etc.

[messy]

Personally I'd group Ralf, DC and Rubens as three drivers who had the right stuff and made very strong careers out of.....a solid level of natural ability. 

 

Fisichella, Trulli and Frentzen I'd group seperately as enigmas who had maybe more natural ability but never achieved what they could have. 

[ensign14]

All very analytical:

 

 

Nigel Roebuck. English journalist. Unconscious bias. Missed Nobel prize.

 

He was proved right, though, wasn't he?  Top team finally signed him up, he gets marmelized by his team-mate.

 

Emperor Galba Syndrome. 

[Regazzoni]

Alonso, Ensign, Alonso, not Rubens Barrichello at Brawn, winning a championship with an unfair advantage and then coasting in the second half of the season.

[Regazzoni]

Some posters mentioned rally drivers, here it goes:

 

Sandro Munari

Miki Biasion

Piero Liatti

Andrea Aghini

Lele Pinto

Tony Fassina

Fulvio Bacchelli

Franco Cunico

Attilio Bettega

Dario Cerrato

[ensign14]

Alonso, Ensign, Alonso, not Rubens Barrichello at Brawn, winning a championship with an unfair advantage and then coasting in the second half of the season.

 

The same Alonso who then got beaten by a rookie team-mate. 

[Regazzoni]

I am an Hamilton fan, I never hidden it. The same applies to Mansell the driver, post-Lotus. But Button - no thanks, keep it.

[PlayboyRacer]

Personally I'd group Ralf, DC and Rubens as three drivers who had the right stuff and made very strong careers out of.....a solid level of natural ability.

Fisichella, Trulli and Frentzen I'd group seperately as enigmas who had maybe more natural ability but never achieved what they could have.

Can see the logic in that. Fair enough 👍

[noriaki]

The problem with the Fisi-Jenson 2001 comparison is that Jenson is not a stable yardstick. Quite the opposite of one, actually. JB could be consistently bloody terrible when the car wasn't for him - which it, in hindsight, obviously wasn't in 2001. But when the car was there for him, he could also consistently give the very best a very hard time.

While Fisi, regardless of equipment, *always* had 1-2 flashes a season where he looked like Ayrton Senna, usually at high attrition venues Montreal or Spa to boot so he had some flash results in the late nineties, early noughties. Which masked that the rest of the time he was fairly mediocre really. Never offensively bad, never particularly good, just kinda...there. Which only got exposed when he got into a good car and everybody was suddenly watching him all the time.

Hence I think Fisi wouldn't have beat Rubens in that Brawn car. Rubinho was a better driver than given credit for and had the match of Jenson for 2 years. But come 2009, Button found his sweet spot with that Brawn and promptly went full Schumacher on Rubinho for half a season so it didn't matter anymore that he went missing afterwards again. While Fisi wouldn't have been able to had Rubinho beat consistently enough I'm afraid.

In my car would have preferred Trulli of the two Italians of the era. Much more like Button in having bad patches when it wasn't right but also being able to maintain very high (Alonso-matching) performance for longer stretches of time when the car was right for him.

The only problem was that Jarno was mentally so very fragile...

Edited by noriaki, 18 December 2018 - 23:07.

[noikeee]

Piero Liatti
Andrea Aghini

Massive local legends, Aghini was one of the biggest heros of my childhood!
 

Because of this little event:

 

https://www.ewrc-res...ali-da-madeira/

[sopa]

When people talk about mental weaknesses, then Stefano Modena IMO is absolutely the best case here. People mention Trulli, Fisichella, and others, but these guys at least had long-term F1 careers and proved themselves adequately in a variety of situations. Modena fizzled out quickly. The most incredible thing about Modena was qualifying on the front row on the grid at Monaco 1991 in the Tyrrell. Of course, considering that Alesi had been 3rd quickest the year before, Tyrrell wasn't half bad around the Principality. Still an impressive feat.

 

Modena was just 28 years old in 1991. He could have had a long-term F1 career. Then he went to Jordan. Granted, the car was a bit more shite than he would have expected, but he let his head drop. He couldn't outperform Gugelmin, and that was it. By the way, Modena had also been team-mates with Brundle in Brabham. Weren't they about evenly matched? But again, if you compare - Brundle had a long-term career, while Modena fizzled out.

 

Another one is Ivan Capelli. Just like Modena, his doomsday season turned out to be 1992. He looked impressive in Leyton House, even though retrospectively you could say that the cars were a bit better than they were considered to be at the time. Still podiums, and plenty of points in 1988. Flopped in 1992, and career was done as well.

Edited by sopa, 19 December 2018 - 11:11.

[ensign14]

Modena made an unexpected GP debut for Brabham in 1987, after Mansell was injured and Bernie allowed Patrese to leave a race early, to give him a shot.  He retired at half-distance because he was a bit tired.

 

Keke Rosberg after the race said "that's it.  He'll never make it.  He hasn't the guts.  On your Grand Prix debut you carry the bloody thing home if necessary."

[hittheapex]

Results coming soon...

[hittheapex]

Thanks for taking part, everybody. A thought provoking debate, the first time in this series I've responded by changing my top 10. There were 23 nominated drivers in total, but there can only be one final top 10:

 

1. Ascari          80

2. Farina          69

3. de Angelis    60

4. Alboreto       48

5. Patrese        38

6. Fisichella     23

7. Nannini         18

8. Fagioli          17

9. Trulli             16.5 (a result of Regazzoni's joint ranking with Bandini)

10. Giacomelli   9

 

So then, a pretty clear top 5 but a tight contest for most of the other places. The next six drivers after Giacomelli were separated by just half a point...

Next we'll be going to the birthplace of motor racing.

[messy]

When people talk about mental weaknesses, then Stefano Modena IMO is absolutely the best case here. People mention Trulli, Fisichella, and others, but these guys at least had long-term F1 careers and proved themselves adequately in a variety of situations. Modena fizzled out quickly. The most incredible thing about Modena was qualifying on the front row on the grid at Monaco 1991 in the Tyrrell. Of course, considering that Alesi had been 3rd quickest the year before, Tyrrell wasn't half bad around the Principality. Still an impressive feat.
 
Modena was just 28 years old in 1991. He could have had a long-term F1 career. Then he went to Jordan. Granted, the car was a bit more shite than he would have expected, but he let his head drop. He couldn't outperform Gugelmin, and that was it. By the way, Modena had also been team-mates with Brundle in Brabham. Weren't they about evenly matched? But again, if you compare - Brundle had a long-term career, while Modena fizzled out.
 
Another one is Ivan Capelli. Just like Modena, his doomsday season turned out to be 1992. He looked impressive in Leyton House, even though retrospectively you could say that the cars were a bit better than they were considered to be at the time. Still podiums, and plenty of points in 1988. Flopped in 1992, and career was done as well.

Yup, if I'm saying Trulli and Fisichella were enigmas then Modena was something else. Could pop up on the front row out of nowhere, finish on the podium, flashes of massive potential but the rest of the time....

Thing is, he's not alone. Quite a few drivers over the years occasionally hinted at being something special while otherwise not looking like anything. I mean in twenty years time maybe people will be talking about Lance Stroll in the same way. "Yeah he was rubbish, but he finished on the podium and started on the front row in his rookie year", or Jabouille who won two races on merit but barely finished a single other race in his entire F1 career. Or Maldonado!! I love looking back at oddities like these. They make the record books far more interesting.

[noikeee]

Modena is surely one of the grand enigmas because he sure had massive talent, but what the hell made it turn it on and off? Same school of driver as Reutemann or Frentzen IMO - the weirdly randomly moody driver that either cracks under pressure, or his performance goes missing for unknown reasons whilst he doesn't appear to even try.

Maldonado is a different kind of driver. There's never been any question he's quick and can control a race from the front (as he did plenty of times in GP2), that's his specialty like Vettel or Jim Clark (with the due massive differences in talent level in this comparison!!), the problem is he's an absolute lunatic in traffic, and prone to make tons of silly mistakes when overcompensating to catch up with others. The really odd thing about his win was what the hell made the car work that well that day, not him.

[nordschleife]

1.   Ascari

2.   Farina

3.   Fagioli

4.   Alboreto

5.   T. Fabi

6.   Fisichella

7.   Patrese

8.   Trulli

9.   de Angelis

10. Bandini

[Ivanhoe]

Hello again, thanks to everybody who has been taking part so far. Next we go to Italy, home of the most successful team but not the most successful when it comes to drivers. See how many potential world champions feature on this list:
 
1. Alberto Ascari
2. Elio de Angelis
3. Giuseppe Farina
4. Ludovico Scarfiotti
5. Pierluigi Martini
6. Alessandro Nannini
7. Michele Alboreto
8. Luigi Fagioli (down to 8th after considering some good points by multiple posters)
9. Stefano Modena (down to 9th after some good points raised in the debate).
10. Vittorio Brambilla
 
I've been enjoying the debates so far, let's keep it going.

Brambilla