6709 replies to this topic

[kernel]

Ferrari always "win" winter testing and have done so for the past 4 seasons in a row, always posting the fastest times. Yet have won f-all championships. F-A-C-T. Were you born yesterday?

 

Mercedes had issues with setup because their suspension was banned before the season tested.

 

Fair point on the suspension. Otherwise, championship-wise Ferrari should have won 2018, and had a driver of Lewis' calibre been in Vettel's 2017 Ferrari, they would have won the WDC. But this ain't the thread to revisit the past.

 

 

Sorry you're saying Ferraris testing methodology is provably superior despite Mercedes blowing them away in both championships for the last 5 years?

 

Sort of. Ferrari has been fast out of the box in the past 2 years; make no mistake, terrible pitwall and inconsistent driving from Vettel played a huge part in the points gap being as large as it was in 2017 and 2018. Arguably, Ferrari should have won 2018 - as it's been acknowledged they had overall the fastest (and most reliable) car.

 

You are marginally more positive than Neno in the Renault thread, kernel, I will give you that.

Merc will be thereabouts. And if they aren't, life will continue.

 

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

So 6/7inches longer?

[GoldenColt]

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

You shouldn't. It's like saying you're the thinnest kid at fatcamp.

[EndlessMotion]

Does anybody know for certain if the wheelbase on W10 is the same as W09? I haven't heard anything said about it from the team but it doesn't look quite as long of a car as the last few Mercs

[JonnyJ]

One for Kernal here, FW concepts and have Red Bull/Merc gone wrong way. Some quotes from Wolff and Horner. Amus more reliable than anything I've seen so far so worth taking a look at

https://www.auto-mot...ferrari-2019-1/

[JonnyJ]

Does anybody know for certain if the wheelbase on W10 is the same as W09? I haven't heard anything said about it from the team but it doesn't look quite as long of a car as the last few Mercs

Pretty much identical, perhaps a few mm shorter

[uraharakisuke]

You shouldn't. It's like saying you're the thinnest kid at fatcamp.

I used to get in fights with all the fat kids at fat camp. I'd taunt them and throw jaffa cakes at them, push them about and when they responded I'd beat them. They were so ashamed and broken they never told anyone.

 

That is until someone brought it up to me during a staff meeting.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

One for Kernal here, FW concepts and have Red Bull/Merc gone wrong way. Some quotes from Wolff and Horner. Amus more reliable than anything I've seen so far so worth taking a look at

https://www.auto-mot...ferrari-2019-1/

OR the other teams have? Far too early to judge I think.

[JonnyJ]

Of course it is. As always, I'm just providing the information, not my opinion

[kernel]

One for Kernal here, FW concepts and have Red Bull/Merc gone wrong way. Some quotes from Wolff and Horner. Amus more reliable than anything I've seen so far so worth taking a look at

https://www.auto-mot...ferrari-2019-1/

 

Uh-oh. I would hate to be right, but body language usually doesn't lie. For sure I wouldn't want to be in any Merc aero engineer's shoes right now. Lot of sleepless nights ahead in Brackley.

 

 

 

Mercedes and Red Bull try to stay calm. But the body language in both teams was already a certain unrest can be seen that Ferrari may have put on the right horse and you do not even. Both now take a closer look at the concept of the opponent.

Edited by kernel, 19 February 2019 - 12:07.

[Marklar]

Since someone asked for a summary on the testing thread and I was beaten to it before finishing, here have a longer summary so that it isnt going to waste for me 

 

Basically the other teams dont really get how the Ferrari/Sauber concept is supposed to work well, because while the outwash might be better they are losing tons of downforce with this concept. Mercedes and Red Bull went the opposite way: they kept the downforce level at the front high, but they'll struggle with the turbulences more.

There are several theories: One is that a better balance is compensating that. If you dont have much downforce at the front, you dont need much in the rear either. And that reduces the drag which increased significantly this year thanks to the bigger rear wing. The fact that Sauber and Ferrari have the highest top speed would support that theory.

Andy Green from Racing Point doesnt think that because that concept would maybe work in qualifying, but compromise yourself too much in the race. His theory: Due to their higher rake Sauber/Ferrari's front wing is closer to the ground which is how they recover the downforce

A different engineer says that this concept looks very wrong, but they will try it out in the simulator. The fact is though that both Kimi and Vettel's feedback about their car sounded very positive. Mercedes and Red Bull are trying to stay calm. But you can see on their body language that they are worried that Ferrari are backing the right horse. They will both take a close look on that concept now.

Wolff: "Everyone is looking at the lap times, and everyone likes to be ahead. You have to keep a certain discipline and let the engineers do their work, though. The goal of first testing is not to set the quickest time, but to understand the car and collect data". Asked  about copying other concepts: "You have to stick to your own phylosophy and shouldnt let distract yourself too much from others". Horner agrees: "It wouldnt bring us anything to just stick Ferrari's front wing on our car, it wouldnt work".

If it turns out that Ferrari's concept is the way to go both teams have a problem. Mercedes more than Red Bull because Red Bull at least has higher rake. Copying the front wing itself would be easy. Thanks to the front wings being simplified the production time has reduced to a third compared to last year. The problem is that you would need to change the whole car and this would take weeks and potentially cost the championship.

 

Edited by Marklar, 19 February 2019 - 12:13.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Since someone asked for a summary on the testing thread and I was beaten to it before finishing, here have a longer summary so that it isnt going to waste for me 

 

BUT - surely it depends on the whole car concept? You cant just switch noses? And its testing after all?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 19 February 2019 - 12:16.

[SonGoku]

Since someone asked for a summary on the testing thread and I was beaten to it before finishing, here have a longer summary so that it isnt going to waste for me 

 

Weeks they still have if they really want to change the car concept, I have seen RBR rolling out totally different B-spec cars between tests/races in their dominating days.

[w1Y]

Still a big if. Lets wait and see but the body language of ferrari may just be new management led or it could be that ferrari have started testing very ppsitively.

A too early prediction? Ferrari will be the stand out car.

[robefc]

Since someone asked for a summary on the testing thread and I was beaten to it before finishing, here have a longer summary so that it isnt going to waste for me 

 

The theory about balance makes no sense to me - how could having little downforce at the front and the back be a good thing for an F1 car!?

Edited by robefc, 19 February 2019 - 12:27.

[HermannH]

Since someone asked for a summary on the testing thread and I was beaten to it before finishing, here have a longer summary so that it isnt going to waste for me 

Many thanks.

[JonnyJ]

The theory about balance makes no sense to me - how could having little downforce at the front and the back be a good thing for an F1 car!?

It's not. That's why they're theorising how they gain it back. Possibly by running the wing close to the ground from the rake.

[w1Y]

I think the most telling yesterday was lewis saying it feels very different.

Of course, it is just testing but different is rarely used as positive

[Marklar]

The theory about balance makes no sense to me - how could having little downforce at the front and the back be a good thing for an F1 car!?

is basically an exchange game: You lose downforce but instead you gain a better airflow and have less drag than the others.

Though, it's said that this is unlikely anyways.
 

 

Weeks they still have if they really want to change the car concept, I have seen RBR rolling out totally different B-spec cars between tests/races in their dominating days.

The thing is they dont know if Ferrari's concept is even better.

Edited by Marklar, 19 February 2019 - 12:33.

[robefc]

I'm also interested as to how that source is evaluating the engineers body language...

[rdebourbon]

Weeks they still have if they really want to change the car concept, I have seen RBR rolling out totally different B-spec cars between tests/races in their dominating days.

 

Weeks they do not have! The logistics are such that there is not enough time for the design / manufacturing and shipping of a radical new design between now and Australia. If there is to be any radical new designs, I'd only expect them to start arriving after the first flyaway races..

[GoldenColt]

I'm also interested as to how that source is evaluating the engineers body language...

By projecting their own wishful thinking onto their faces?

[SonGoku]

I think the most telling yesterday was lewis saying it feels very different.

Of course, it is just testing but different is rarely used as positive

 

Noticed that too yeah, interesting to keep following what he says, because most of the time he let you know how he feels about things.

[Knowlesy]

I think the most telling yesterday was lewis saying it feels very different.

Of course, it is just testing but different is rarely used as positive

 

Yeah, I took that to mean there was some work to do.

 

But he might have said that in other seasons, i don't know.

[Ali623]

Hearing all this talk about Mercedes going in the wrong direction with their front wing philosophy.

Will make it all the more funnier when they rock up to Melbourne and take pole again I guess.

[rdebourbon]

Yeah, I took that to mean there was some work to do.

 

But he might have said that in other seasons, i don't know.

 

Karun had some quite positive things to say about the W10 handling this morning:

 

 

 

The Mercedes still seems better on the kerbs, at T7 for example and their traction is still excellent. Lewis also seems the most comfortable to have just a tiny lift through the ultra fast T9 despite carrying a decent fuel load.

 

Beware the hype train!! Testing it not about ultimate lap time...

[kernel]

By projecting their own wishful thinking onto their faces?

 

Or... simply by seeing them in the paddock?

 

This somewhat correlates with Hamilton's use of "different". He's a pretty bad poker face so we can count on his body language to assess where Mercedes thinks it is at the moment.

[monolulu]

Lewis hates testing & is rarely enthusiastic about it. Last year he said it felt the same this year it felt different, which it is!

[nemanja]

[peroa]

The theory about balance makes no sense to me - how could having little downforce at the front and the back be a good thing for an F1 car!?

There's only a certain amount of force the tyres can take and if Ferrari's concept produces just enough, evenly, to keep all 4 tyres in the sweet spot than they have done the job.

[tokengator82]

Karun had some quite positive things to say about the W10 handling this morning:

 

 

Beware the hype train!! Testing it not about ultimate lap time...

ya but what about his body language bro 

[tokengator82]

Or... simply by seeing them in the paddock?

 

This somewhat correlates with Hamilton's use of "different". He's a pretty bad poker face so we can count on his body language to assess where Mercedes thinks it is at the moment.

Kernal c'mon man. Body language is subjective. In fact I've seen very little objective facts that suggest merc is very concerned about their concept. Not yet anyhow. 

 

I don't even think RB/Merc wanting to look at Ferrari's concept in the simulator as some sort of proof they are worried...looking at what another top team has done in the simulator is due diligence, both for their own concepts and also might be able to see any weird wake the wing might produce when they are close to the car. 

 

I just don't see the point of the doom and gloom when the cars haven't done a single lap in anger yet. Like I said previously i think mercedes has at least earned the benefit of doubt given their success over the last 5 years. 

 

also, I am glad to see teams taking different approaches to solving problems. This is what we should all want to see. 

Edited by tokengator82, 19 February 2019 - 13:40.

[robefc]

Or... simply by seeing them in the paddock?

 

This somewhat correlates with Hamilton's use of "different". He's a pretty bad poker face so we can count on his body language to assess where Mercedes thinks it is at the moment.

 

So how was his body language?

[Zava]

So how was his body language?

it was on rails

[tokengator82]

one more thing...Ferrari NEEDED to find a new silver bullet. They have been behind and losing both championships for many years. They are the desperate ones, not merc. Merc coming out with a radically different concept than what has worked would be malfeasance and really open them up to criticism especially if it failed. It is a really old cliche but it is still true-- you don't fix what isn't broken. 

 

If ferrari have found their silver bullet and FINALLY dethrone merc..tip your cap and then work on fixing it. At least in this case you can point to the other team and give them credit instead of beating yourself with some radical untested and unfamiliar design 

Edited by tokengator82, 19 February 2019 - 14:09.

[doc83]

Quote

Basically the other teams dont really get how the Ferrari/Sauber concept is supposed to work well, because while the outwash might be better they are losing tons of downforce with this concept. Mercedes and Red Bull went the opposite way: they kept the downforce level at the front high, but they'll struggle with the turbulences more.

There are several theories: One is that a better balance is compensating that. If you dont have much downforce at the front, you dont need much in the rear either. And that reduces the drag which increased significantly this year thanks to the bigger rear wing. The fact that Sauber and Ferrari have the highest top speed would support that theory.

Andy Green from Racing Point doesnt think that because that concept would maybe work in qualifying, but compromise yourself too much in the race. His theory: Due to their higher rake Sauber/Ferrari's front wing is closer to the ground which is how they recover the downforce

A different engineer says that this concept looks very wrong, but they will try it out in the simulator. The fact is though that both Kimi and Vettel's feedback about their car sounded very positive. Mercedes and Red Bull are trying to stay calm. But you can see on their body language that they are worried that Ferrari are backing the right horse. They will both take a close look on that concept now.

Wolff: "Everyone is looking at the lap times, and everyone likes to be ahead. You have to keep a certain discipline and let the engineers do their work, though. The goal of first testing is not to set the quickest time, but to understand the car and collect data". Asked  about copying other concepts: "You have to stick to your own phylosophy and shouldnt let distract yourself too much from others". Horner agrees: "It wouldnt bring us anything to just stick Ferrari's front wing on our car, it wouldnt work".

If it turns out that Ferrari's concept is the way to go both teams have a problem. Mercedes more than Red Bull because Red Bull at least has higher rake. Copying the front wing itself would be easy. Thanks to the front wings being simplified the production time has reduced to a third compared to last year. The problem is that you would need to change the whole car and this would take weeks and potentially cost the championship.

 

Ferrari and Alfa are probably just playing games with everyone. If their lap times would be normal nobody would look into it. So they drive very fast and now all the other teams will burn recourses to evaluate the concept.

[Goron3]

There's a thread up on reddit that translate's an AMuS (or another german publication's) article that includes quotes from both Horner and Wolff. Having just read the comments, it does just seem to be the case that both Ferrari and Sauber have found a genuinely clever solution to the new regulations and it is working better already than anyone thought.

 

That said, there's no guarantee that it has a higher development ceiling, so in-season development could be the deciding factor.

[Zava]

 

Quote

 

Ferrari and Alfa are probably just playing games with everyone. If their lap times would be normal nobody would look into it. So they drive very fast and now all the other teams will burn recourses to evaluate the concept.

 

yes. they build dummy parts, waste test days and fake the handling of the car(???) to seem good to trick others into going this way.

[Unicast]

one more thing...Ferrari NEEDED to find a new silver bullet. They have been behind and losing both championships for many years. They are the desperate ones, not merc. Merc coming out with a radically different concept than what has worked would be malfeasance and really open them up to criticism especially if it failed. It is a really old cliche but it is still true-- you don't fix what isn't broken. 

 

If ferrari have found their silver bullet and FINALLY dethrone merc..tip your cap and then work on fixing it. At least in this case you can point to the other team and give them credit instead of beating yourself with some radical untested and unfamiliar design 

 

Really doubt that a front wing can become a silver bullet... 

[doc83]

yes. they build dummy parts, waste test days and fake the handling of the car(???) to seem good to trick others into going this way.

 

Nope. Was just talking about lap times. It might be only tiny bit beneficial not 0,5-1sec. Everyone is looking because they top the timesheats.

Edited by doc83, 19 February 2019 - 14:25.

[rdebourbon]

 

Quote

 

Ferrari and Alfa are probably just playing games with everyone. If their lap times would be normal nobody would look into it. So they drive very fast and now all the other teams will burn recourses to evaluate the concept.

 

 

To what end though? If the concept is flawed and they're playing games with everyone, then they either arrive in Australia with an untested aero package that mrirrors what everyone else has already been testing and understands much more than they do *OR* start the season on the backfoot when everyone else turns up the wick.

 

That's a lose/lose approach if deliberate.

 

Surely it's best to focus on your own plans in testing and make note of things to investigate further when time allows while maximising your understanding of your current design..

[masa90]

I would not be worried about the testing times just yet. They mean nothing really, I have grown out of being too interested about the times.
 

Car looks good and would be very surprising if it isn't near the top of the board in Australia.

 

Btw, is the car lighter shade of silver or are those photos bit deceiving??

[doc83]

To what end though? If the concept is flawed and they're playing games with everyone, then they either arrive in Australia with an untested aero package that mrirrors what everyone else has already been testing and understands much more than they do *OR* start the season on the backfoot when everyone else turns up the wick.

 

That's a lose/lose approach if deliberate.

 

Surely it's best to focus on your own plans in testing and make note of things to investigate further when time allows while maximising your understanding of your current design..

 

I’m talking about something completely different. The concept might be ok for them, but not highly beneficial, just slightly. But because are very fast from 1 day everyone will think it’s something like Brawn’s DD and burn a lot of recourses to check it out.

[MikeTekRacing]

I’m talking about something completely different. The concept might be ok for them, but not highly beneficial, just slightly. But because are very fast from 1 day everyone will think it’s something like Brawn’s DD and burn a lot of recourses to check it out.

BGPs car used a loophole. Everybody understood how it's working, they just thought it's not legal.

Here they seem to not be able to understand how (if) it works

[tokengator82]

Really doubt that a front wing can become a silver bullet... 

I don't think so either

[kernel]

BGPs car used a loophole. Everybody understood how it's working, they just thought it's not legal.

Here they seem to not be able to understand how (if) it works

 

Based on Ferrari's lap times, it's pretty clear their design works. Now the real question is, does Merc's design work? Only they know...

[beachdrifter]

How long until everyone overreacts to meaningless testing times?

[Neno]

 

How long until everyone overreacts to meaningless testing times?

 

I started yesterday 

[EndlessMotion]

I can't say I'm surprised Mercedes went the route they did with their FW due to their car philosophy being so different to Ferrari. What does surprise me more is that if Ferrari's concept is a good one, how Red Bull and Newey, being the aero kings, missed it.

 

Really interesting to hear the theories on the pros and cons of the Ferrari/Alfa wings and no doubt facts will begin to emerge rather than just speculation at this stage.

 

I might be being a little naive but I really thought the top teams in particular would have explored all possible variations of the new FW regs and been aware of the concept that Ferrari went down (even if they opted not to use it) but I get the impression it's a bit of a surprise to Merc and Red Bull.

[Neno]

I can't say I'm surprised Mercedes went the route they did with their FW due to their car philosophy being so different to Ferrari. What does surprise me more is that if Ferrari's concept is a good one, how Red Bull and Newey, being the aero kings, missed it.

 

Really interesting to hear the theories on the pros and cons of the Ferrari/Alfa wings and no doubt facts will begin to emerge rather than just speculation at this stage.

 

I might be being a little naive but I really thought the top teams in particular would have explored all possible variations of the new FW regs and been aware of the concept that Ferrari went down (even if they opted not to use it) but I get the impression it's a bit of a surprise to Merc and Red Bull.

well initially rb and newey missed trick on ferrari style sidepods also. which many teams after adopted. we can for sure say Ferrari found some nice designers in their design office. but that also means you dont need to have newey to make innovative and fast car. Merc on other hand has nothing to worry, 5 titles in row says everything. Their concept works. It's unbeatable. Proven and it by Nvidia words "it just works".  

Edited by Neno, 19 February 2019 - 15:40.