82 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

The SC lasted about six laps last race for two cars off the track. Only some gravel remained on the track. Yet we need 2-3 laps to bunch them up and 2-3 laps for lapped cars to unlap. When are we going to stop to have 10% of the race laps waste away per SC period? With the SC-delta, cars can't regroup fast enough as the would in the past AND the unlapping also takes forever. Yes, it can cost you 10th place if the leader was in between you and him, but it takes forever now.

 

Shouldn't F1 use slow zones more? That is the same for everyone, while a VSC gives you a reduced pit stop time and also a tactical advantage.

Edited by SenorSjon, 13 May 2019 - 08:59.

[Jerem]

Unlapping is a silly rule, if they want the leaders to be bunched up then just drop the backmarkers at the back of the pack.

[Rinehart]

Well the race was dull as dishwater so 6 laps of SC which was barely any worse, for a 10 lap sprint at the end was worth it in my book. 

[JeePee]

The safety car had a big moment exiting Turn 2. 

 

Probably the most 'on the ragged edge' i've seen a car all race. Sounds better, too.

[Beri]

One of the problems is that they (the FIA) wants the cars to be behind the Safety Car before they let track workers sweep the track like in the case of yesterday. This does take a few laps before this happens. Hence the reason why the Safety Car is driving slowly and thus Hamilton complaining about it. The FIA does this because trackworkers would have a 2 minute gap to be on track safely, instead of every somewhat second having a car pass by.

 

Add to this waiting the irritating unlapping procedure and you do have a lengthy SC period. Even when little seems to have happened.

[ANF]

The SC lasted about six laps last race for two cars off the track. Only some gravel remained on the track. Yet we need 2-3 laps to bunch them up and 2-3 laps for lapped cars to unlap. When are we going to stop to have 10% of the race laps waste away per SC period? With the SC-delta, cars can't regroup fast enough as the would in the past AND the unlapping also takes forever. Yes, it can cost you 10th place if the leader was in between you and him, but it takes forever now.
 
Shouldn't F1 use slow zones more? That is the same for everyone, while a VSC gives you a reduced pit stop time and also a tactical advantage.

Is the F1 safety car going much faster than in other racing series? Let's have a look at the lap times...

[SenorSjon]

Indeed. They should let the lapped cars where they are, like in the past. The leader already went through the trouble of passing them. He lost his lead with the SC, now he is punished even more with direct competition right on his tail that didn't have to consume tire life to pass backmarkers.

 

@ANF. You have a delta to drive to during the bunching up phase. In the past it was happened that when the SC was called, drivers raced to the pits, nullifying the safety feature of calling the SC out.

 

But it isn't only F1. In Indycar a SC takes a bunch of laps to bunch up, then pitlane reopens and then 1-2 laps and only then we get green. It will take 5 laps minimum it seems, while the stranded car is on his way after 1 lap.

Edited by SenorSjon, 13 May 2019 - 10:10.

[CoolBreeze]

Naa..they just threw it to to try to spice in a traditional snoozefest.

[Dratini]

Unlapping is a silly rule, if they want the leaders to be bunched up then just drop the backmarkers at the back of the pack.

If they did that the cars would fall another lap behind. Imagine you're racing someone for 10th place, a valuable point for a lesser team, and the leader is right behind you. You let him through and then immediately thereafter, the safety car is deployed. The guy you were racing for 10th stays on the lead lap, and not only did you get lapped just before the safety car, but then you also go another lap down by dropping back down the pack in the safety car queue rather than driving ahead of the safety car. You may as well just retire the car at that point.
 

 

Indeed. They should let the lapped cars where they are, like in the past. The leader already went through the trouble of passing them. He lost his lead with the SC, now he is punished even more with direct competition right on his tail that didn't have to consume tire life to pass backmarkers.

I believe the change was made allowing the provision for lapped cars to go through because they were getting in the way too much while out of position at the restart. The coming together of Webber and Hamilton in Singapore 2010 is a good example of this. Also, I'm not sure there is any merit to arguing that a driver burned their tyres getting past a back marker. There are blue flags.

[noikeee]

The reason why it took so long is F1 wants to be hi-tech in everything when simple brooms for everyone would be more efficient.

[F1matt]

The race director was probably glad of the opportunity to throw a safety car to overcome the tedium, sadly I missed the incident that caused it as I had turned over due to borerdom. 

[goldenboy]

Yeah it's quite unfair to the last lapped car to lose out so badly so I agree with letting them unlap. It didn't take long at all for them to get around to the end of the queue, I was watching albons timing.

[ANF]

The reason why it took so long is F1 wants to be hi-tech in everything when simple brooms for everyone would be more efficient.

They are doing it all wrong.

[SpeedRacer`]

I like seeing cars get back on the lead lap as it livens up the race with more contenders.

 

And it only really takes 1 lap for them to let them though. It's also not unusual for them to get going before they catch the pack up completely on circuit circuits, the idea that this is done is actually a myth.

[Cornholio]

Indeed. They should let the lapped cars where they are, like in the past. The leader already went through the trouble of passing them. He lost his lead with the SC, now he is punished even more with direct competition right on his tail that didn't have to consume tire life to pass backmarkers.

 

 

This really. The cars are already bunched up more than they otherwise would have been, if the SC is there just for safety I don't see the need to wave them through, let the cars have any advantage they have earned of backmarkers between them and their pursuers, unless they are actively using it for "the show".

[Dratini]

This really. The cars are already bunched up more than they otherwise would have been, if the SC is there just for safety I don't see the need to wave them through, let the cars have any advantage they have earned of backmarkers between them and their pursuers, unless they are actively using it for "the show".

My view is that having those backmarkers there may also create something of a safety issue. Plenty of cars (backmarkers) moving slowly while others are racing, bunched up, immediately after a restart. Smells hazardous.

[Jerem]

If they did that the cars would fall another lap behind. Imagine you're racing someone for 10th place, a valuable point for a lesser team, and the leader is right behind you. You let him through and then immediately thereafter, the safety car is deployed. The guy you were racing for 10th stays on the lead lap, and not only did you get lapped just before the safety car, but then you also go another lap down by dropping back down the pack in the safety car queue rather than driving ahead of the safety car. You may as well just retire the car at that point.

It's exactly what would happen if they were made to hold position though, except that we'd have blue flags for 5 laps.

I don't see how gifting them back one full lap is any fairer. What if the race leader has lapped everyone but is on old tyres, while all the others have fresh tyres?

 

But that's a side effect of SC anyway: it disadvantages some drivers and helps others. What it shouldn't do, though, is prevent racing from happening while the track is perfectly safe to drive.

[HeadFirst]

Unlapping is a silly rule, if they want the leaders to be bunched up then just drop the backmarkers at the back of the pack.

 

I agree that un-lapping is silly. You could do as above (simple and effective), or just leave all drivers in current positions. If the leader (for example) has worked hard to put those lappers between himself and the chasers, why take that advantage away from him?

[Dratini]

It's exactly what would happen if they were made to hold position though, except that we'd have blue flags for 5 laps.

I don't see how gifting them back one full lap is any fairer. What if the race leader has lapped everyone but is on old tyres, while all the others have fresh tyres?

 

But that's a side effect of SC anyway: it disadvantages some drivers and helps others. What it shouldn't do, though, is prevent racing from happening while the track is perfectly safe to drive.

I'd say that team deserves to lose if they don't have the foresight to pit a driver for fresh tyres with such a gap to the next car.

Also cars with less race pace is not the same as multiple cars slowing right down to let lead cars through.

[Dratini]

I agree that un-lapping is silly. You could do as above (simple and effective), or just leave all drivers in current positions. If the leader (for example) has worked hard to put those lappers between himself and the chasers, why take that advantage away from him?

As Martin explained during the race, they can't be dumped through to the back because the timing sensors would put them another lap down.

[KWSN - DSM]

As Martin explained during the race, they can't be dumped through to the back because the timing sensors would put them another lap down.

 

I am sure a relative low-level IT person could adjust the one lap back again.

 

[Fastcake]

As Martin explained during the race, they can't be dumped through to the back because the timing sensors would put them another lap down.

That’s a problem that could be easily fixed. A minor software adjustment isn’t a reason not to allow the lapped cars to shuffle backwards.

[PayasYouRace]

It's exactly what would happen if they were made to hold position though, except that we'd have blue flags for 5 laps.
I don't see how gifting them back one full lap is any fairer. What if the race leader has lapped everyone but is on old tyres, while all the others have fresh tyres?

But that's a side effect of SC anyway: it disadvantages some drivers and helps others. What it shouldn't do, though, is prevent racing from happening while the track is perfectly safe to drive.

If the race leader has a lap on everyone else and didn’t pit for fresh tyres under the safety car he’s an idiot. Though he’s obviously got such an advantage on everyone else that it probably would make a difference.

Unfortunately making such extreme scenarios doesn’t really work because any safety car system would probably fall down under some unlikely scenario.

[KWSN - DSM]

Just do not have safety cars, leader of race become the safety car maintaining 'x' speed, if enter pit and no longer leader next leader becomes safety car maintaining 'x' speed, any drivers lapped to shuffle backwards immediately.

 

[R Soul]

That would cause its own problems: Internet forum jargon. It wouldn't be long before someone said driver X was having a good race, for a backmarker, but lost out due to the shuffle.

 

My opinion is that the safety car should pick up the leader, stay out for as little time as possible, and then let the race resume. To prevent problems with backmarkers having to jump out of the way and possibly causing another crash, there could be a blue flag amnessty for a lap, or 30s/1 minute etc to let things settle down. However, with so many B teams these days there's a 50/50 chance that any of the lead drivers would nevertheless be allowed past immediately.

Edited by R Soul, 13 May 2019 - 19:30.

[TomNokoe]

1. SC delta time massively increased. Takes ages for the cars to bunch up

2. Reluctance to allow marshals or vehicles on track until there is absolutely no cars close

3. Lapped cars as discussed

[DS27]

The reason why it took so long is F1 wants to be hi-tech in everything when simple brooms for everyone would be more efficient.

 

[Fastcake]

Just do not have safety cars, leader of race become the safety car maintaining 'x' speed, if enter pit and no longer leader next leader becomes safety car maintaining 'x' speed, any drivers lapped to shuffle backwards immediately.

 

 

One of the reasons you need a safety car driver and observer is that whoever is taking the pack around needs a full view of the track, the marshals and the incident zone, and to safely manoeuvre around them. The safety car driver also needs to be fully focused on the task, not trying to manage tyre temperatures or their position in the race.

[KWSN - DSM]

One of the reasons you need a safety car driver and observer is that whoever is taking the pack around needs a full view of the track, the marshals and the incident zone, and to safely manoeuvre around them. The safety car driver also needs to be fully focused on the task, not trying to manage tyre temperatures or their position in the race.

 

Double or triple waved flags, 'x' speed and behave on track as you are taught from very first license at age 10. Safety cars are not needed.

 

[PayasYouRace]

Double or triple waved flags, 'x' speed and behave on track as you are taught from very first license at age 10. Safety cars are not needed.

 

 

So, Virtual Safety Car, as we call it.

[SenorSjon]

As Martin explained during the race, they can't be dumped through to the back because the timing sensors would put them another lap down.

 

 

That’s a problem that could be easily fixed. A minor software adjustment isn’t a reason not to allow the lapped cars to shuffle backwards.

 

So someone gets a lap of free fuel he can use against the one in front of him?

[KWSN - DSM]

So, Virtual Safety Car, as we call it.

 

Except I want them to bunch up, not be spread out all over the track.

 

[sgtkate]

In terms of safety, is there any benefit at all to having a full safety car as opposed to a virtual one? It surely can't be that difficult to have a VSC that triggers as you approach the accident area so that it affects all equally and not compromise some people more than others. The SC seems to be used as a race enhancing gimmick. 

[Fastcake]

So someone gets a lap of free fuel he can use against the one in front of him?

The idea is just to move the lapped cars out of the way, not to unlap them. They could unlap themselves, but they still have to make up the distance in the race.

[goldenboy]

Not allowing them to unlap themselves means you pretty much write off the race for them. It's too much of a penalty.

[SenorSjon]

Yet it was a normal procedure for ages and got SC's out of the way quickly. Now you can mow the lawn in the meantime, especially if the race is past its midpoint and cars are lapped.

[goldenboy]

Yet it was a normal procedure for ages and got SC's out of the way quickly. Now you can mow the lawn in the meantime, especially if the race is past its midpoint and cars are lapped.

it didn't take nearly that long to release them and make it to the back actually, I was watching albons timing as he caught up sainz. That scrap they spent most of the time on during the last few laps would nt have existed otherwise.

I understand you though, I was in the other camp when I wasn't following drivers much outside the top 3 teams. But now that I am, I can see that it would instantly ruin their race beyond repair.

Edited by goldenboy, 14 May 2019 - 14:01.

[Spillage]

Unlapping is a silly rule, if they want the leaders to be bunched up then just drop the backmarkers at the back of the pack.

Or let them through and don't let them catch the back of the pack again. Let them through and then pull the SC in same lap.

[f1paul]

In terms of safety, is there any benefit at all to having a full safety car as opposed to a virtual one? It surely can't be that difficult to have a VSC that triggers as you approach the accident area so that it affects all equally and not compromise some people more than others. The SC seems to be used as a race enhancing gimmick. 

Yes.

 

If there was gravel on the track or a big tractor, having a VSC would be more dangerous because you would still have cars doing 100MPH or whatever past the accident zone, plus marshals can't sweep any gravel or whatever off the track because there is no gap in the pack.

 

With a SC, the cars go slower in a bunch and there is at least 2 minutes of clear track for the marshals to do their job. Much safer. 

[Fastcake]

Or let them through and don't let them catch the back of the pack again. Let them through and then pull the SC in same lap.

I actually thought this was the rule, and we abandoned requiring the backmarkers to catch the back of the pack a couple of years ago. Perhaps that was a Charlie Whiting thing, and the new race director wants them to catch up.

[PlatenGlass]

I actually thought this was the rule, and we abandoned requiring the backmarkers to catch the back of the pack a couple of years ago. Perhaps that was a Charlie Whiting thing, and the new race director wants them to catch up.

Me too actually. I was surprised and disappointed by the extra wait.

[Lights]

It's incredible how everybody's look on safety has changed in the last 20 years.

 

Someone posted the 2002 Spanish GP somewhere on these forums, and I noticed Button retired his car some meters next to the track, simply got out and walked away. The car was not recovered and just stood there until the end of the race, cars driving by doing 200km/h. I'm not even sure yellow flags were waved. Commentators didn't say a word about it.

[Sterzo]

In terms of safety, is there any benefit at all to having a full safety car as opposed to a virtual one? It surely can't be that difficult to have a VSC that triggers as you approach the accident area so that it affects all equally and not compromise some people more than others. The SC seems to be used as a race enhancing gimmick. 

It's frustrating that a high-tech sport is stuck in the mud, hanging onto a shambolic system. It would be easy to do away with safety cars by making the VSC system more effective:

 

1. Pit lane limiter on throughout (to regulate speed for safety).

2. Lead car to maintain constant speed.

3. Steering wheel display/alarm to help you maintain the correct gap to the car ahead.

4. At the end of the final VSC lap, limiter is cancelled automatically at the line (not before).

5. Anyone too close to the car ahead stays limited until the gap's opened out; if the leader slows down too much he stays limited for an extra chunk. (i.e. automatic steward-free penalties).

 

So many advantages: fairer than a safety car, less delay to resuming racing, no faffing about trying to surprise the field on the restart, everything visible and uncontroversial.

[PayasYouRace]

I suppose it would be entirely possible to give each car a different delta on the return to racing so that the gaps are restored to what they were before the (V)SC was called.

[azza200]

It's incredible how everybody's look on safety has changed in the last 20 years.

 

Someone posted the 2002 Spanish GP somewhere on these forums, and I noticed Button retired his car some meters next to the track, simply got out and walked away. The car was not recovered and just stood there until the end of the race, cars driving by doing 200km/h. I'm not even sure yellow flags were waved. Commentators didn't say a word about it.

 

I just finished watching the Dubai 24 hours now at certain times they had code 60's for cars being off the track to be recovered which i get but. If the car is offline and away from the racing line no need to instantly call a code 60. But other sportscars series do it and it does become annoying car side of the trace quick safety car as its dangerous even though its off line or far enough away from the track to be an issue. But instead of leaving it i mean after a few laps drivers no there is a car there etc but no they SC straight away, which ruins battles & flow of the race IMSA are bad for doing that as sometimes takes them 10 mins plus to move 1 car & then the wave around. Just clear it and get on with it or leave it if it is safe enough off track and off line. 

[scheivlak]

Not allowing them to unlap themselves means you pretty much write off the race for them. It's too much of a penalty.

It's not a penalty at all.

 

They were already lapped FFS.

[ANF]

I was a little annoyed with a late safety car call in last weekend's ELMS race at Monza.
An LMP3 car had a big off at the exit of Ascari https://youtu.be/bzAZ35oYe14?t=6810 – it ran wide, spun across the track and smashed into the barrier on drivers' left.
And for some reason it took 75 seconds before the safety car was deployed!
I assume the team and race control heard that the driver was OK on the radio, but he wasn't getting getting any attention from the marshals and had to get out of the car himself and, seemingly dazed, walk back to the mashal post – protected only by a local yellow. And since it was a local yellow, cars were approaching at relatively high speed, some slowing down more than others, of course, which can cause silly accidents.

Anyway, once the safety car was deployed it had to stay out for almost 13 minutes. Because the LMP3 car had to be craned onto a flatbed and a tyre barrier had to be repaired.

[ANF]

One thing I did like about that ELMS safety car intervention, however, was that the first couple of SC laps were very slow – the second lap looked like a 3:30 or an average speed of 100 km/h – so it didn't take very long for the field to bunch up or the wave-by/unlapping to happen. Once the wave-by was dealt with, the safety car picked up the pace to bring up the tyre temperatures before the restart. Maybe a similar approach in F1 would mean that fewer laps would be wasted behind the safety car? On the other hand I wonder if they would struggle to get the Pirelli balloon tyres back up to temperature?

[goldenboy]

It's not a penalty at all.

They were already lapped FFS.

If they were 11th and 3 seconds behind 10th place and catching them, but safety car comes out just before leader laps 10th place, it's game over. Huge penalty. You just don't want to see it because you are only focussed on what's happening at the front is all.

[7MGTEsup]

If they were 11th and 3 seconds behind 10th place and catching them, but safety car comes out just before leader laps 10th place, it's game over. Huge penalty. You just don't want to see it because you are only focussed on what's happening at the front is all.

 

That's the way the cookie crumbled in American racing for years, sometimes you're in front sometimes you're behind.....

 

I think the safety car should pick up the first car that arrives behind it once it is on track and the cars remain in the order they arrive, if there are 5 lapped cars between first and second then that's tough and if the leader is the 4th car in the queue who cares? Do they really think the average person watching is that dumb they can't figure out who is driving which car? The race order is displayed on screen for most of the race so you know their actual race position. 

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 15 May 2019 - 15:32.