90 replies to this topic

[Richard Jenkins]

Evening all,

 

I hope this is okay to have this as a separate thread at the moment rather than the wonderful book thread, but I look forward to what TNF'rs think once the book is out.

 

I am delighted to tell you (and Jack-the-Lad in particular who has asked and asked and asked someone in previous threads for this to happen) that I have been commissioned to write a biography on Richie Ginther, with the aim to complete in November this year to publish in February 2020.

 

This, initially, was on the strength of photos and memories from his second wife, Cleo but things, as they often do, developed to such a degree that now we're going ahead with the full biography. 

 

Although numerous people have already been contacted to help with the book (and I thank a number of TNF'rs for their help already), if anyone has suggestions, feedback, stories, resources or anything else at all that they feel could be of use, then please either email me (if you already have the address) or PM me and I'll advise the email accordingly.

 

What would be of massive help the most at this moment is if anyone can help with usage of photos of anything RG related.

 

Any queries, head them my way and I'll do my best to meet as many people's expectations as I can.

 

In due course, I'll advise more about how to get the book etc. etc. but that's for later in the year/early 2020.

 

 

 

 

[E1pix]

Sounds fabulous.

If you need a book designer, please let me know.

[LionelB]

Hello Richard. I was a racing photographer/journalist in the 1960's, 70's and 80's. I covered many races in Canada & the U.S. during those years. e.g. Watkins Glen. I looked back through my recently self-published book (www.lionelbirnbom.com) and saw a number of photos of Ritchie at Watkins Glen from 1963-1967, in a BRM, Honda, etc. incl. portraits. If you are interested in any such photos for publication in your book, please let me know dates, tracks, etc. via email = lionelbirnbom@hotmail.com, and I'll let you know what I have. P.S. My book contains a chapter about our National hero, Gilles Villeneuve, which you may enjoy. Lionel

[Jack-the-Lad]

Thanks for remembering me and for taking on the challenge. Richie is so deserving of this.

Tell your publisher you've already made a sale!

Jack.

[E1pix]

2.

Lionel, Welcome!

[Arjan de Roos]

Ginther is surely to be remembered. If only for the massive contribution in testing for Ferrari. Never impressed me that Ferrari has not honored him in any decent way, a Via Ginther or a 812 Ginther...

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 11 June 2019 - 11:13.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Richard, with respect to your request for information, photos, etc., about RG, may I suggest that you register at FerrariChat and post in the Vintage forum? The web site has global reach and you may well find some information or assistance from other members.

[Richard Jenkins]

Thanks all.

Good idea re. the Ferrari Chat. Especially because I want to delve into the impact Eugenio Dragoni had on Ferrari.
I'll reply to PM's properly tonight but the last few days have been most encouraging

[D-Type]

Please include the early days before he joined Ferrari and came to Europe.  And also what he did when he retired - I understand he lived a gypsy-like existence with a camper van.

Edited by D-Type, 21 December 2019 - 15:09.

[Richard Jenkins]

Hi, from birth to death will be covered. 50's Sportscars, Ferrari, BRM, Honda, IMSA etc etc
And post-racing... Well, it will be good to finally have the truth about RG out there, that's all I will say for now.

[E1pix]

Not sure what he might know about Richie specifically, but highly recommend you contact TNFer Cynic2.

[guiporsche]

Thanks all.

Good idea re. the Ferrari Chat. Especially because I want to delve into the impact Eugenio Dragoni had on Ferrari.
I'll reply to PM's properly tonight but the last few days have been most encouraging

 

One thing that struck me, used as I was to hear about the harrowing stories of Ginther and Surtees, was to read from both Forghieri and Giulio Borsari (Ferrari's chief mechanic) that within the team at least, he was regarded as a very competent, firm, well-connected team manager that raised the Scuderia's game at an organisational level. I'm sure Surtees would disagree but one thing (Dragoni's worth as a team manager) is not incompatible with the other 'peculiarities' usually reported of him, like ruthlessly pushing Surtees out on Enzo's orders, seeking to promote Italian drivers, apparently having a tough character, etc. Just a thought - needing further empirical backing!

 

Link to Forghieri on Dragoni below, from a talk he gave at the presentation of his biography in 2013. Funnily, he gave more detail there than on his book [actually, it's pretty much all in p.72], where apart from the Surtees episode he says that Lini did not match Dragoni and the Scuderia was all the worse for that. Borsari's (short) statement I found in a Ruoteclassiche interview that I retrieved from an Italian forum. You have to register on the forum (http://forum.p300.it/) but I have the scans on the computer and can send them to you by mail if you so wish. Probably in Borsari's autobiography 'Ferrari in tuta' there's more but I confess that to my regret, I do not own the book.

 

https://www.motoremo...n-uomo-ferrari/

Edited by guiporsche, 11 June 2019 - 19:53.

[Gary C]

Do you need pictures?

[Richard Jenkins]

One thing that struck me, used as I was to hear about the harrowing stories of Ginther and Surtees, was to read from both Forghieri and Giulio Borsari (Ferrari's chief mechanic) that within the team at least, he was regarded as a very competent, firm, well-connected team manager that raised the Scuderia's game at an organisational level. I'm sure Surtees would disagree but one thing (Dragoni's worth as a team manager) is not incompatible with the other 'peculiarities' usually reported of him, like ruthlessly pushing Surtees out on Enzo's orders, seeking to promote Italian drivers, apparently having a tough character, etc. Just a thought - needing further empirical backing!

 

Link to Forghieri on Dragoni below, from a talk he gave at the presentation of his biography in 2013. Funnily, he gave more detail there than on his book [actually, it's pretty much all in p.72], where apart from the Surtees episode he says that Lini did not match Dragoni and the Scuderia was all the worse for that. Borsari's (short) statement I found in a Ruoteclassiche interview that I retrieved from an Italian forum. You have to register on the forum (http://forum.p300.it/) but I have the scans on the computer and can send them to you by mail if you so wish. Probably in Borsari's autobiography 'Ferrari in tuta' there's more but I confess that to my regret, I do not own the book.

 

https://www.motoremo...n-uomo-ferrari/

 

 

Wonderful!  It's all about finding the balance as much as I can. Must admit so far it's not been very positive of him. 

[Richard Jenkins]

Do you need pictures?

 

Yes, yes and yes. The publisher set me what I thought initially was a daunting task photo wise but it may now not be considering the last few days. The more racing ones I have of him, the more I can do after racing so it's a nice balance.

 

Anything you could do would be wonderful.

[Gary C]

drop me an e-mail then!

[Jack-the-Lad]

Richard, there's also a Collectibles, Models and Literature forum on FChat. You should consider posting a separate thread there instead of the "official book collectors thread" where it might get buried among discussions of other books.

Take some time to look around the rather large web site and determine where you might get the most exposure.

[Richard Jenkins]

Thanks JtL.

 

I've added the site to my Ginther bookmarks and will delve into a bit more over the next couple of days. I'm quite sure it will end up being a valuable resource.

[rl1856]

I wish you the best of luck. I will be in line when the book is published. Fate can be cruel. Had you begun this task just a few years ago so many who had first hand knowledge of Richie were still with us. I assume you have reached out to Mr Nye? He would of course have deep knowledge of Ginther’s years at BRM. He would also have access to much archival information from Phil Hill who was instrumental in encouraging Ginther and getting him to Ferrari.

[Regazzoni]

Especially because I want to delve into the impact Eugenio Dragoni had on Ferrari.

 

Just seen this.

 

Without going to check the books and magazines – will do tonight - I am not sure what Dragoni has to do with Ginther. He came in as Ginther left the team, although I have to check on the actual timing, but wouldn’t want to read too much into it, as at Maranello there was only one decision-maker, not to mention I would seriously doubt Dragoni’s opinion had any weight on what went on before his time.

 

The team manager (“direttore sportivo”) during Ginther’s stay was Romolo Tavoni, very much still with us at 93, still very bright and dignified as usual, as well as open to talk to those who ask.

 

Hopefully the book will make justice to Ginther, without trying to be another driver’s apology or relate the n-th take on the alleged Italian melodramma the Scuderia was supposed to be.

 

In this sense, I wish the writer good luck.

[Richard Jenkins]

I wish you the best of luck. I will be in line when the book is published. Fate can be cruel. Had you begun this task just a few years ago so many who had first hand knowledge of Richie were still with us. I assume you have reached out to Mr Nye? He would of course have deep knowledge of Ginther’s years at BRM. He would also have access to much archival information from Phil Hill who was instrumental in encouraging Ginther and getting him to Ferrari.

 

To be honest, I am amazed nothing was ever written either at the time or especially in the 90's when Jackie Ginther, Phil Hill, Dan Gurney etc. etc.were still alive.

 

The original opportunity to write this book actually came in 2014, but there was not enough publisher interest. 5 years on, both personally and with the WATN site, things are in a better place for me to spend time to do this anyway - the big loss from 2014 to 2019 is of course Dan Gurney but that's where research comes in instead.

 

I have liaised with DCN, yes, and he is helping with what he can.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 12 June 2019 - 10:23.

[Richard Jenkins]

Just seen this.

 

Without going to check the books and magazines – will do tonight - I am not sure what Dragoni has to do with Ginther. He came in as Ginther left the team, although I have to check on the actual timing, but wouldn’t want to read too much into it, as at Maranello there was only one decision-maker, not to mention I would seriously doubt Dragoni’s opinion had any weight on what went on before his time.

 

The team manager (“direttore sportivo”) during Ginther’s stay was Romolo Tavoni, very much still with us at 93, still very bright and dignified as usual, as well as open to talk to those who ask.

 

Hopefully the book will make justice to Ginther, without trying to be another driver’s apology or relate the n-th take on the alleged Italian melodramma the Scuderia was supposed to be.

 

In this sense, I wish the writer good luck.

 

Hi Regazzoni,

 

I have mentioned Dragoni as there are a couple of sources that have said that Dragoni was directly responsible for Ginther leaving; this is what I am researching at the moment. However if it is clear this isn't the case, then it won't even go into the book - there's no point either writing objectively or sensationalising Dragoni as the pantomine villian if he is not, in this case, even involved.

 

I would dearly love Tavoni's memories but my Italian isn't anywhere near good enough to do a phone interview justice. If anyone has any suggestions of who could contact Romolo and put my questions to him, I would be very appreciative. He's one of the most significant living individuals who knew RG who I haven't yet been in contact with.

Edited by Richard Jenkins, 12 June 2019 - 10:22.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Juergen Barth may be able to help with RG's years with Porsche on the US west coast, as might Alan Johnson if he's still alive. Derek Hill may also have some useful information.

[E1pix]

Good call on Alan, Jack, was thinking the same thing.

If unsure Richard, Alan did a book called "Driving in Competition" which might give pathways to him. I think Richie ran a 914/6 for Alan as late as maybe 1971, in SCCA C-Production racing. Seems he may have won a Runoffs in that class in 1970, but I'm murky on that.

[guiporsche]

To my little knowledge, the latest book to talk about the Dragoni-Ginther episode is by A. Pritchard in the 2nd edition of Grand Prix Ferrari (2014), p.230.

On Pritchard's words (not mine! ) in-between Tavoni's firing in late 1961 (can't remember the exact month now) and Dragoni's joining the Scuderia in 1962, Dragoni telephoned OMF informing that he saw Ginther having a meal with Rudd at Modena. OMF, at the time "paranoid and suspicious" proceeds to fire Ginther without any further ado believing that Ginther was joining BRM. Ginther actually had no intention of doing so. End of story.

Sources given by Pritchard for this: zero (in line with the usual motorsports book writing style...). Might have been hearsay, might have been Forghieri (who Pritchard interviewed, apparently various times), Ginther himself, Phil Hill (is there anything in his recently published memories?)... Who knows. 

 

In my opinion/hypothesis, knowing what he know now with relative assurance and leaving the myth of a all-powerful Dragoni behind, and accounting that as a DS, Dragoni was fore and foremost only obeying OMF's orders, the latter probably had already made his mind to drop Ginther and that telephone call (if it indeed took place), would only have settled & reinforced a previously made decision. 

 

People worth contacting: Tavoni of course, for as Regga said it was he who dealt with Ginther during his stay at Ferrari; and Forghieri (who speaks English). There are not many more alive from that time, I'm afraid. Maybe it might be worth contacting someone like a Cesare de Agostini or a Gianni Cancellieri, who could have stories to tell?  

Edited by guiporsche, 12 June 2019 - 13:23.

[Richard Jenkins]

Juergen Barth may be able to help with RG's years with Porsche on the US west coast, as might Alan Johnson if he's still alive. Derek Hill may also have some useful information.

 

EFR and Kurt Zimmerman have both provided details about RG's racing team already. I know Derek and I've also been in touch with Jeff Bucknum and Justin Gurney. 

[guiporsche]

I should have kept my mouth shut (as usual). Seems the origin for the Dragoni telephone call story is Tavoni himself, interviewed by Pritchard for a Motorsport Magazine article entitled 'Year of the Shark' (God bless them for their digital archive) for the November 2011 issue, p93.

 

"“Mr Ferrari should have kept Richie for 1962, but in the autumn of ’61 it was reported to him by Eugenio Dragoni (a friend of Mr Ferrari and my successor) that Ginther was seen talking to Tony Rudd of BRM in a restaurant at Modena. Mr Ferrari refused to renew Richie’s contract because he thought he was planning to join BRM. I learned that the meeting was purely social, but once he knew his contract was not going to be renewed Richie walked straight into a drive with the British team."

[Jack-the-Lad]

Other possible sources for the Porsche era might be Jeff Zwart, the Porsche Club of America archives and the Sports Car Club of America. SCCA also might be of help for the west coast Ferrari racing days. Another suggested source for California racing is Roy Spencer at http://www.motorbinder.com

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 12 June 2019 - 14:56.

[Richard Jenkins]

I should have kept my mouth shut (as usual). Seems the origin for the Dragoni telephone call story is Tavoni himself, interviewed by Pritchard for a Motorsport Magazine article entitled 'Year of the Shark' (God bless them for their digital archive) for the November 2011 issue, p93.

 

"“Mr Ferrari should have kept Richie for 1962, but in the autumn of ’61 it was reported to him by Eugenio Dragoni (a friend of Mr Ferrari and my successor) that Ginther was seen talking to Tony Rudd of BRM in a restaurant at Modena. Mr Ferrari refused to renew Richie’s contract because he thought he was planning to join BRM. I learned that the meeting was purely social, but once he knew his contract was not going to be renewed Richie walked straight into a drive with the British team."

 

And that's the quote/source I'm talking about. Just trying to get to the bottom of it at the moment.

[guiporsche]

Right, I think this is the last piece of information I found in my computer, and it's available online anyways! There's a small reference to Ginther in an interview with Mauro Prampolini, who worked at Ferrari's Reparto Esperienze during Ginther's time (and moved on to the testing department afterwards) Prampolini says that Ginther left before the management walkout. This is part of a wonderful AISA monograph on Giotto Bizzarrini, which, by the way,  contains some very interesting information about that latter episode that I have not found elsewhere. 

 

P11: "Di quale dei piloti Ferrari di quell’epoca

conserva il miglior ricordo?

Di Ritchie Ginther, per la sua sensibilità alla vettura, per la cura con cui ne voleva percepire le reazioni. Trascorreva molto tempo al Reparto Esperienze, per lui la macchina doveva adattarsi al pilota “come fosse un vestito”. Ginther fu allontanato dalla Ferrari alla fine della stagione 1961, prima dell’episodio degli otto dirigenti; uscì insieme all’ingegner Vico Chizzola. Non

credo che avesse già sottoscritto il contratto con la BRM, con la quale disputò la stagione 1962; ricordo infatti che una sera pianse, dopo aver saputo che non avrebbe più corso con le Ferrari."

 

https://www.aisastor.../aisa107web.pdf

[Regazzoni]

Tavoni was fired in the putsch that cleared the management on the 31st of October 1961. The interest of talking to him is to relate what kind of person and driver Ginther was in the two years at Ferrari, what kind of consideration they had for him, beside people of the level of Phil Hill and Von Trips.

 

The story that Ginther was not retained because seen - by Dragoni, 'o malamente, what a chance! - at a restaurant in town with Rudd (who doesn't seem to mention the episode in his memoirs) seems just to have a journalistic or gossipy colour to it. Someone who became "Enzo Ferrari", who did all he did, I would assume he didn't make it out of pure luck, he made his luck, he read people and got the best out of them. So I would put myself in his shoes. End of 1961. He has a world champion in Phil Hill, has lost Von Trips. He is trying to get Moss, somehow, which unfortunately would never happen after Goodwood. Fires the management because threatened his authority - he was the owner and propulsive force of the whole thing. Hires as new DS Dragoni, who had had Baghetti at Sant'Ambroeus, the guy had won three F1 races in a row. It was reasonable in that circumstance to give him a drive. In hindsight we know Baghetti wasn't worth much, Bandini and Ginther were probably about the same level, and I bet Ferrari realized that. I would suggest there was nothing scandalous in not retaining Ginther in the circumstance, as there was nothing scandalous in hiring new local talent, while keeping the eyes on the bigger picture trying to get the ace of the moment.

 

Both Forghieri (in the illustrated Italian edition) and Borsari never mention Ginther in their memoirs. They both rate Dragoni among the best DS Ferrari had, to Ugolini's level. Forghieri says explicitly what I have also heard from other people, that the DS - and specifically Dragoni - did all that Ferrari told him to do; nothing more. If Dragoni argued with Surtees, it means he could afford to. He wasn't alone, there were always at least two other pairs of eyes - Gozzi and Forghieri - reporting to Ferrari, not to mention the chats in Modenese dialect with the mechanics when they were back on the workshop floor. Further, in the early 60s, Ferrari still used to attend tests and GP practice (Monza and Monaco).

 

I was a bit surprised, if not concerned, in my previous post that someone, non-Italian speaker too apparently, while dealing with the biography of Ginther, seemed to want to set the record "straight" about Dragoni. But it's ok anyway.

[Richard Jenkins]

 

I was a bit surprised, if not concerned, in my previous post that someone, non-Italian speaker too apparently, while dealing with the biography of Ginther, seemed to want to set the record "straight" about Dragoni. But it's ok anyway.

 

Regazzoni, I never said that and I don't know where you've got that interpretation from.

 

I just wanted to explore more firstly if there was a definitive link between Dragoni and RG based on information from Pritchard's book and Tavoni's comments and then take that from there into a wider context. But it was only worth taking into a wider context if the information was valid. For whatever reason, Dragoni seems to be a chap that has polarised opinion; Phil Hill's comments about ED mirror John Surtees. But the impression I have gleaned, as you say above, when digging through is it's a different story within Maranello.

 

I'm not doing a biography on Ferrari and the fact I don't speak Italian very well means I wouldn't even try. RG's memories of his time there, from what I've found so far, are overall, very positive.

 

The summary of all this is that the link of the end of RG's time at Ferrari due to ED appears tenuous at best and that's fine and I can move along. 

[SKL]

I'll be in line for this book.   As an original owner of early 1971 914 I followed his development of the racing 914's pretty closely  and bought a Solex carb conversion kit for my car from his and Johnson's shop way back when.   Still have the carbs but can't find the manifolds!!!

[Arjan de Roos]

The reason for Ginther to talk to Rudd was likely that Ferrari did still not offer him a contract for 1962. He had already proven his testing abilities (e.g. the need for a spoiler on the 246 SP rear) as well as his racing.

 

Therefor he was reluctant to drive for the Scuderia in 1962. He wanted to be more than his role as test driver. His reluctance was noted (!) by the Old Man and in a meeting he was given a contract for the new year. Presented to him by a smiling Enzo, he quickly read through it and swiftly saw it was identical to the previous (test driver) one, and not one with a more permanent basis. He refused to sign, which infuriated Ferrari. “Sign, or you will never drive a Ferrari again!” he shouted. Ginther tossed the contract as a ball of paper in Ferrari’s lap. Ferrari picked up the telephone and asked calmly to retain the key of signor Ginthers company car *) and to check if the jack was still in it.

 

This pic made me smile and should reach the book:

https://www.gettyima...4?adppopup=true

 

*) My source stated a Dino, unlikely as it was 1961. Phil Hill had a grey Peugeot 404 at the time. Likely Ginther had a car from the same brand.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 18 June 2019 - 09:44.

[Arjan de Roos]

Oh and the mechanic is Sergio Vezzali (Why are mechanics always unnamed in so many pictures...?).

[Richard Jenkins]

Arjan, not for the price Getty want for it, it's not, sadly

[d j fox]

Richard

Just sent you a PM re Ginther at the 1962 Silverstone International Trophy race.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Richard, is there any new information about your book?

Thanks.

Jack.

[Richard Jenkins]

Yep.
In the last stages of putting it together. Currently compiling race results and then I'll read back the whole work to decide final layout and how it reads.

Couple of people also proof reading it. I've got lots of memories, lots of photos and overall, I think - and desperately hope - it's a good tribute to RG.

So timeline is submission 9th Nov. Around mid-Jan (for the Autosport show) it should be available for pre-order direct from the publisher as that is when the promotion starts and then Feb 21st we'll be at Race Retro to sell/promote it.

Thanks for asking! As long as no-one minds, I'll put an update in the New Year with a link to buy accordingly.

[Sterzo]

As long as no-one minds, I'll put an update in the New Year with a link to buy accordingly.

We'd mind if you didn't.

[Allen Brown]

I am in the very lucky position of being allowed a sneak preview of Richard's book, and I hope he won't mind me saying that it is an absolute belter.  I am amazed how many people he has spoken to, how many articles he has found, how many never-before-seen pictures he has uncovered, and how he has woven all this material into a real page-turner of a book.

 

And the really good news is, he's still on schedule so not long to wait until you can get your orders in!

[Richard Jenkins]

[Jack-the-Lad]

Do you plan to be at Members’ Meeting with the books?

[Richard Jenkins]

Not sure. The publisher has links to Goodwood and the book will be out to buy by then but I'm not sure I will be there personally as I am not a member of the GRRC. I guess it depends on how things develop.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Not sure. The publisher has links to Goodwood and the book will be out to buy by then but I'm not sure I will be there personally as I am not a member of the GRRC. I guess it depends on how things develop.

By the way, who is the publisher?

It would be great if you could set up a signing at a vendor booth like Horton’s or others. You wouldn’t have to be a GRRC member to do that.

[Richard Jenkins]

Hi Jack,

 

Performance Publishing. The same publisher that published Darren Bank's excellent Stephen South book.

[D-Type]

Hi Jack,

 

Performance Publishing. The same publisher that published Darren Bank's excellent Stephen South book.

I hope they use a larger (ie legible) font this time.  The Stephen South book is the only one ever that I have needed a magnifying glass to read.

Edited by D-Type, 22 December 2019 - 15:46.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I hope they use a larger (ie legible) font this time.  The Stephen South book is the only one have ever needed a magnifying glass to read.

Yes and many publishers seem to be using lighter (less?) ink as well. I don’t know if there’s a cost saving in that or if they just think it’s fashionable.

[Doug Nye]

The latter...       

 

CND

[Arjan de Roos]

Yes and many publishers seem to be using lighter (less?) ink as well. I don’t know if there’s a cost saving in that or if they just think it’s fashionable.

I hear a Schnorcedes book is in the making using not only light ink, also ultralight paper.

 

Richard, will you present the book also at Retromobile 2020?