85 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

For most races its similar story, 1 billion soft tryes mostly used in practice sessions, a few medium tryes, and one or two hards only, on the sessions that matter, soft might help in quali, but most of the time in race the hards or mediums are best and I keep hearing nearly every weekend "teams are racing blind on the hards since they only brought one set they done no running on them", and "surprisingly they the fastest trye"

 

Also how do I edit topic title? I typod. sorry.

Edited by chrcol, 14 July 2019 - 16:08.

[Marklar]

Qualifying, that's it.

[pdac]

They bring so many softs because, if they do work well, they don't want to be the team that runs out.

 

To change the title, I would suggest contacting the mods with the title that you would like.

Edited by pdac, 14 July 2019 - 16:03.

[ArrowsLivery]

I agree. Makes no sense to not bring 2 sets of hard and medium each race. One set for practice and one for the race.

[ExFlagMan]

Probably based the choice on the what worked last year - not easy when the track gets resurfaced after you have to nominate the tyre choice.

[SophieB]

For most races its similar story, 1 billion soft tryes mostly used in practice sessions, a few medium tryes, and one or two hards only, on the sessions that matter, soft might help in quali, but most of the time in race the hards or mediums are best and I keep hearing nearly every weekend "teams are racing blind on the hards since they only brought one set they done no running on them", and "surprisingly they the fastest trye"
 
Also how do I edit topic title? I typod. sorry.

Is what I changed it to okay?

[chrcol]

yeah thats good, I missed the word race, thanks.

[Dr. Austin]

They need to bring the mega soft back.

[Kalmake]

I agree. Makes no sense to not bring 2 sets of hard and medium each race. One set for practice and one for the race.

You can get the practice data from one car. No reason to bring 2 sets of hard for both cars. In turn the other car will collect data on the mediums.

 

If the hard gets used in the race, it's always just one set.

[f1paul]

Because qualifying is so important in modern F1 so the teams will always bring at least 7 sets of soft tyres.

 

One to use in FP1, one for FP2, two for FP3 and then use at least 3 sets in qualy (plus if you get to Q3 you get an extra set). That's the minimum. Usually the top teams will use an extra set or two in qualy/on Friday.

[Bleu]

As it is now, Pirelli picks one set of each compound and team picks 10 sets as they want. It could be more interesting if teams would pick all 13 and were able to have 0 sets of certain tyre. Of course that would mean that they would have no flexibility towards the two-compound rule for the race.

 

As they have to return two sets of tyres after each practice, teams have seven sets for qualifying and race. And almost every time it's 1-2-4 or 1-1-5 when reading from hardest to softest option.

[pdac]

As it is now, Pirelli picks one set of each compound and team picks 10 sets as they want. It could be more interesting if teams would pick all 13 and were able to have 0 sets of certain tyre. Of course that would mean that they would have no flexibility towards the two-compound rule for the race.

 

As they have to return two sets of tyres after each practice, teams have seven sets for qualifying and race. And almost every time it's 1-2-4 or 1-1-5 when reading from hardest to softest option.

 

Or even better if Pirelli picks all 13 and the team just have to make the best of them. Or maybe Pirelli brings enough sets for all, of whatever compound, and the drivers pull balls out of a hat to determine which they get.

[TomNokoe]

The “three tyre rule” is usually the reason why we have one-stoppers nowadays. If Pirelli only brought two compounds (e.g C2 + C3 e.g.) we would’ve had much more strategic variance.

Edited by TomNokoe, 14 July 2019 - 21:11.

[7MGTEsup]

Maybe they should get 12 sets for the weekend 4 of each compound and get rid of the stupid 2 compounds for the race rule. Just let them run what they want. If someone wants to run 3 sets of softs for the race let them, if someone wants to run the hard and do 0 stops let them.

[SenorSjon]

The “three tyre rule” is usually the reason why we have one-stoppers nowadays. If Pirelli only brought two compounds (e.g C2 + C3 e.g.) we would’ve had much more strategic variance.

 

Erm no, we would have S-H or S-H strategy. They used to bring two compounds and that wasn't favorable. Opening up the choices gave more strategic variance.

[Clatter]

The “three tyre rule” is usually the reason why we have one-stoppers nowadays. If Pirelli only brought two compounds (e.g C2 + C3 e.g.) we would’ve had much more strategic variance.

 

Not sure about that. If they can do the race with one stop, then they will. The tyres generally can't be pushed hard for long enough to make up for the extra stop.

[Raest]

Not sure about that. If they can do the race with one stop, then they will. The tyres generally can't be pushed hard for long enough to make up for the extra stop.

I am not sure whether it's actually the tires or the fuel limit. Shorter stints, with more pit stops, only make sense if you can offset the time lost during the pit stop on track. Which means you have to push, and I don't know if they can do that without going the fuel limit, assuming that the tyre can hold. In general fast degradation tires and fuel cap on top of that was not exactly clever... 

[Clatter]

I am not sure whether it's actually the tires or the fuel limit. Shorter stints, with more pit stops, only make sense if you can offset the time lost during the pit stop on track. Which means you have to push, and I don't know if they can do that without going the fuel limit, assuming that the tyre can hold. In general fast degradation tires and fuel cap on top of that was not exactly clever... 

 

At this time I think it's the thermal degradation of the tyre that is the problem, not tyre wear. Fuel wise, I doubt the teams are using a full fuel load at most races, so there is probably lee way there to push for longer.

[revmeister]

You can get the practice data from one car. No reason to bring 2 sets of hard for both cars. In turn the other car will collect data on the mediums.

 

If the hard gets used in the race, it's always just one set.

 

Each car is setup to its driver's preference, and each driver needs time on the various compounds on each track. It would be terrible handicap for the driver that didn't get to run them during free practice.

[ExFlagMan]

If you really want to mix things up then one way would be as follows.

• Each team is allocated a fixed no of each compound for the season for each driver. 
• The drivers are allowed to nominate whatever compounds they want from that allocation for each race.
• Pirelli take just those tyres to the event and take them back after the race.
• The team can use any combination they want from those sets at each race weekend.
• Teams cannot 'save' unused tyres from the weekend for a later race.

 

I think it has the potential to really mix things up, especially towards the end of the season when some teams/drivers might only have less than optimum tyre compounds left.

 

 

[Kalmake]

Each car is setup to its driver's preference, and each driver needs time on the various compounds on each track. It would be terrible handicap for the driver that didn't get to run them during free practice.

If it was terrible I doubt it would be a common approach like it is.

[FPV GTHO]

If it was terrible I doubt it would be a common approach like it is.

What we don't see of course is how much lost track time is made up through simulator work.

[TomNokoe]

Erm no, we would have S-H or S-H strategy. They used to bring two compounds and that wasn't favorable. Opening up the choices gave more strategic variance.

Not sure about that. If they can do the race with one stop, then they will. The tyres generally can't be pushed hard for long enough to make up for the extra stop.

I don't agree.

The hardest compound at most Grand Prix is usually the only viable compound for one-stoppers.

This allows teams to qualify on the middle tyre, and then one stop moving to the harder tyre.

If Pirelli dropped the hardest tyre, teams would probably 2 stop because running the softest compound for half the race isn't feasible at most circuits.

Even if teams continued to qualify on the harder tyre, their only option on Sunday would be to pit onto the softer tyre for one-stoppers. It wouldn't work. Even at Monaco it was the wrong strategy.

I know it sounds counterproductive. The 3-compound rule really did help for a time, but not anymore.

Just go back through Grand Prix this year.

Silverstone without the C1?
Austria without the C2?
France without the C2?
Canada without the C3?
etc...

Go back and look at the stint lengths.

One-stops would have been difficult or impossible. It's always the hardest tyre that teams rely on.

Obviously the same thing would happen if Pirelli simply made the tyres softer. We are always at their mercy as to which compounds they bring.

Edited by TomNokoe, 18 July 2019 - 17:39.

[Marklar]

I mean that could be resolved by just going a step softer on nearly all tracks. Even if not, I'm sure that you can stretch on many tracks the medium to over 60-70 % of the distance and then the soft to 30-40 %. In fact, in Silverstone Vettel had already completed 38 % of the race distance on softs, and he was probably going to surpass 40 % without the SC.

A bit of a shame that Pirelli only once or twice skipped compounds (e.g C1, C2, C4), on some tracks this could open a ton of options.

[SenorSjon]

I don't agree.

The hardest compound at most Grand Prix is usually the only viable compound for one-stoppers.

This allows teams to qualify on the middle tyre, and then one stop moving to the harder tyre.

If Pirelli dropped the hardest tyre, teams would probably 2 stop because running the softest compound for half the race isn't feasible at most circuits.

Even if teams continued to qualify on the harder tyre, their only option on Sunday would be to pit onto the softer tyre for one-stoppers. It wouldn't work. Even at Monaco it was the wrong strategy.

I know it sounds counterproductive. The 3-compound rule really did help for a time, but not anymore.

Just go back through Grand Prix this year.

Silverstone without the C1?
Austria without the C2?
France without the C2?
Canada without the C3?
etc...

Go back and look at the stint lengths.

One-stops would have been difficult or impossible. It's always the hardest tyre that teams rely on.

Obviously the same thing would happen if Pirelli simply made the tyres softer. We are always at their mercy as to which compounds they bring.

We would miss out on the battles in Austria or Silverstone with softs. They would fall apart.

[revmeister]

If it was terrible I doubt it would be a common approach like it is.

You are saying the each driver doesn't get to do set up laps on the compounds they will qualify and race with?

Examples please.

[Ramon69]

First of all, the dumbest rule EVER is that The top10 must start on the tyre they qualified on which kills racing.

[Kalmake]

You are saying the each driver doesn't get to do set up laps on the compounds they will qualify and race with?

Examples please.

No, just the hards. It's not uncommon a driver wont be on hards before the race.

[TomNokoe]

We would miss out on the battles in Austria or Silverstone with softs. They would fall apart.

Well now we are talking about two different things. I am talking about introducing more pitstops. You are talking about exciting racing despite limited stops.

[Rodaknee]

If you really want to mix things up then one way would be as follows.

• Each team is allocated a fixed no of each compound for the season for each driver. 
• The drivers are allowed to nominate whatever compounds they want from that allocation for each race.
• Pirelli take just those tyres to the event and take them back after the race.
• The team can use any combination they want from those sets at each race weekend.
• Teams cannot 'save' unused tyres from the weekend for a later race.

 

I think it has the potential to really mix things up, especially towards the end of the season when some teams/drivers might only have less than optimum tyre compounds left.

 

That's the kind of thinking that got F1 into the tyre nonsense that has ruined the races since Pirelli got the contract for joking rubber.

[P123]

The biggest issue with tyres is that come race day, whatever the compound, there seems to be a negligible difference in pace and wear between them all.

[ATM]

...and it’s better to start 12th on new medium tires than 7th on worn soft ones. Why bother getting in Q3 then?

[r4mses]

If you really want to mix things up then one way would be as follows.

• Each team is allocated a fixed no of each compound for the season for each driver. 
• The drivers are allowed to nominate whatever compounds they want from that allocation for each race.
• Pirelli take just those tyres to the event and take them back after the race.
• The team can use any combination they want from those sets at each race weekend.
• Teams cannot 'save' unused tyres from the weekend for a later race.

 

I think it has the potential to really mix things up, especially towards the end of the season when some teams/drivers might only have less than optimum tyre compounds left.

 

I want flat out racing - not some unnecessary random pseudo tactical stuff and trade-off games for nerds in armchairs.

Edited by r4mses, 18 July 2019 - 20:37.

[Fatgadget]

First of all, the dumbest rule EVER is that The top10 must start on the tyre they qualified on which kills racing.

Surely there must be some rationale behind it?..Like, only the top 10 can  participate in going for fastest lap point..lest wise some team find it worth while to build a fastest lap special  for every race  No?

[Fatgadget]

I want flat out racing - not some unnecessary random pseudo tactical stuff and trade-off games for nerds in armchairs.

When was there ever balls to the wall flat out racing start to finish with zero regard to tactics be it prolonging reliabity saving fuel etc?

Edited by Fatgadget, 18 July 2019 - 20:50.

[ExFlagMan]

That's the kind of thinking that got F1 into the tyre nonsense that has ruined the races since Pirelli got the contract for joking rubber.

 

 

I want flat out racing - not some unnecessary random pseudo tactical stuff and trade-off games for nerds in armchairs.

 

Any suggestions as to how this utopia may be achieved?

[Fatgadget]

The biggest issue with tyres is that come race day, whatever the compound, there seems to be a negligible difference in pace and wear between them all.

And by and large everyone choses exactly the same combination!..What's the point choices other than monkey see monkey do?

Edited by Fatgadget, 18 July 2019 - 21:40.

[r4mses]

Any suggestions as to how this utopia may be achieved?

 

durable tyres and mandatory pit stops (we already got the latter - at least one stop). tyres which last longer then the stints between the stops, so drivers do not need to nurse the tyres nor care about wear.

[pdac]

Any suggestions as to how this utopia may be achieved?

 

Glue the gas peddle to the floor.

[boomn]

durable tyres and mandatory pit stops (we already got the latter - at least one stop). tyres which last longer then the stints between the stops, so drivers do not need to nurse the tyres nor care about wear.

I don't find anything wrong with drivings having to deal with some tire management, and the strategy that can come from that.  Watching a driver try to keep it on track with greasy old tires to make his pit strategy work can be exciting!  But that seems to work better in series that don't use Pirelli tires ,which either don't grip well enough or drop off badly, grain, blister, etc if the car and setup aren't designed in just the right way and the driver doesn't ever so carefully manage them to the proper delta.  

[FPV GTHO]

I mean that could be resolved by just going a step softer on nearly all tracks. Even if not, I'm sure that you can stretch on many tracks the medium to over 60-70 % of the distance and then the soft to 30-40 %. In fact, in Silverstone Vettel had already completed 38 % of the race distance on softs, and he was probably going to surpass 40 % without the SC.

A bit of a shame that Pirelli only once or twice skipped compounds (e.g C1, C2, C4), on some tracks this could open a ton of options.

I think they would need more compound options again to effectively skip compounds. Right now, if they tried to take a C1-2/3-4 or C2-3/4-5 to more tracks, the Hard would still be durable enough to one stop but the Soft would fall apart in qualifying.

In the past though whenever they've had more than 5 compounds, they seem to always get 2 compounds somewhere that degrade the same despite one being softer/harder or they have the hardest unable to warm up.

[ClubmanGT]

Here's a theory: Just one compound. Like it used to be. And then we went down this stupid route and for some reason keep persisting with it.

 

Now we have two dry tyres but wets that can't handle a substantial puddle.

Dry. Wet. Monsoon. 

[Gorma]

When was there ever balls to the wall flat out racing start to finish with zero regard to tactics be it prolonging reliabity saving fuel etc?

Maybe in drag racing.

[Pharazon]

Maybe they should get 12 sets for the weekend 4 of each compound and get rid of the stupid 2 compounds for the race rule. Just let them run what they want. If someone wants to run 3 sets of softs for the race let them, if someone wants to run the hard and do 0 stops let them.

 

can you imagine how much more boring Monaco would be with 0 pit stops

[GrumpyYoungMan]

If you really want to mix things up then one way would be as follows.

• Each team is allocated a fixed no of each compound for the season for each driver.
• The drivers are allowed to nominate whatever compounds they want from that allocation for each race.
• Pirelli take just those tyres to the event and take them back after the race.
• The team can use any combination they want from those sets at each race weekend.
• Teams cannot 'save' unused tyres from the weekend for a later race.

I think it has the potential to really mix things up, especially towards the end of the season when some teams/drivers might only have less than optimum tyre compounds left.

Short term it would - long term it wouldn’t change anything...

Also I think that’s a bad idea.

[Marklar]

can you imagine how much more boring Monaco would be with 0 pit stops

to the contrary I actually think that it could increase the overtaking probability. The only realistic way to overtake on such a track is massive tyre wear, which you wont get on a 1 stop. Obviously I'm not saying that you will get it with 0 stops, but it's more likely and thus would probably encourage more offset strategies.

Though Monaco is a special case anyways.

[FirstWatt]

to the contrary I actually think that it could increase the overtaking probability. The only realistic way to overtake on such a track is massive tyre wear, which you wont get on a 1 stop. Obviously I'm not saying that you will get it with 0 stops, but it's more likely and thus would probably encourage more offset strategies.[...]

Looking at bike races, there is a high probability that this would happen. Some start quick, just to loose out at the end, and vice versa. Maybe it really would be good to cancel that mandatory pitstop and the "two different tyres per race" rule. Also the rule about starting on the Q2 tyre, or about same tyres front and rear. Strategies would be less predictable for the competition, teams could have more room if a tyre works at the front but not at the rear.

 

So much is so tightly regulated, what would we lose by loosening up a bit?

[SenorSjon]

Teams voted down the abolishment of the Q2 tire rule last year. Lower midfield profits from their competitors running a sub-optimal strategy if they reach Q3. The rule was designed in a time the top 3 teams didn't have such a clear gap to the others.

[FPV GTHO]

Here's a theory: Just one compound. Like it used to be. And then we went down this stupid route and for some reason keep persisting with it.

Now we have two dry tyres but wets that can't handle a substantial puddle.
Dry. Wet. Monsoon.

When was this time they only used 1 compound?

[ExFlagMan]

FF1600 - when some club drivers used only 1 set of tyres a season...