93 replies to this topic

[taran]

Carlos Sainz is just a few points off Gasly despite driving what we know is an inferior car to Red Bull. To be honest I'm not sure why Red Bull moved Sainz over to Renault and then cut him loose, he's been developing nicely and has always been a good solid points-scorer. At McLaren he looks even more mature and is getting very good results.

 

 

 

I think the Red Bull driver programme has always been about finding star drivers, not finding good drivers.

If you look at former Toro Rosso drivers, very few of them were hopeless. But equally most of them weren't Schumacher or Vettel 'good'. Which is why a Buemi for example got his marching papers.

 

Sainz is good but IMO was clearly a step below Verstappen. Even now, he is only slightly ahead of rookie Norris when he should be spanking him. Sure, Sainz is generally a solid driver and in this case would have done a better job in the second Red Bull but Marko is looking for a next Vettel, not another #2 driver.

 

The irony is that if Sainz had been patient and accepted another year at Toro Rosso, he would have been in the Red Bull this year....

 

 

 

 

[SenorSjon]

Gasly deserves time. It's ridiculous that, after less than half a season, there is talk of replacing a guy who showed a lot of promise in a Toro Rosso with... a guy who shows promise in a Toro Rosso. Give the guy a break and give him a season at least to show his worth.

Hartley was even worse... There was talk about replacing him last year as well. So it made Gasly shine more. Yet, Gasly also topped off in the latter part of the year, ignoring team orders for Hartley for instance... He did the same in Silverstone this year where he needed to be told by Horner to get out of the way.

[Reinmuster]

I'd wait until the end of the season, and then give careful consideration to a change. Albon should be considered to be in the hunt as well.

 

This.

[Arundo]

I think the Red Bull driver programme has always been about finding star drivers, not finding good drivers.

If you look at former Toro Rosso drivers, very few of them were hopeless. But equally most of them weren't Schumacher or Vettel 'good'. Which is why a Buemi for example got his marching papers.

 

Sainz is good but IMO was clearly a step below Verstappen. Even now, he is only slightly ahead of rookie Norris when he should be spanking him. Sure, Sainz is generally a solid driver and in this case would have done a better job in the second Red Bull but Marko is looking for a next Vettel, not another #2 driver.

 

The irony is that if Sainz had been patient and accepted another year at Toro Rosso, he would have been in the Red Bull this year....

 

Sainz is a Trulli, Irvine, Barrichello something Redbull knew already. Sure he was close to Verstappen in their Toro Rosso years but only because he had more years in cars. He should have been outshining Norris this year but he's not, and he is still error prone. 

[EggAndHam]

It's a tough call really. I don't see Kvyat would want mid season turmoil, especially as he has just become a dad. He could make a great case for next year though.

 

The problem Red Bull have with Gasly is that unlike when Max had problems, or like LeClerc is having with Ferrari, he doesn't seem to be close enough to Max to tolerate the mistakes.
 

[Sterzo]

I think the Red Bull driver programme has always been about finding star drivers, not finding good drivers.

 

This, exactly this. Neither Kvyat nor Gasly is establishing himself as a potential successor to Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel nor probably even Webber. Why mess about with mid season swaps that simply damage both drivers? Let Gasly finish his season and carry on racing elsewhere next year, maybe still with a Red Bull connection and a legacy of good will, like Buemi and Hartley.

[DeKnyff]

Gasly deserves time. It's ridiculous that, after less than half a season, there is talk of replacing a guy who showed a lot of promise in a Toro Rosso with... a guy who shows promise in a Toro Rosso. Give the guy a break and give him a season at least to show his worth.

Did Gasly show a lot of promise in the Toro Rosso, in the first place? He was just better (and not by a high margin) than Hartley, a driver who was probably hired for his experience in hybrid engines, not for his speed.

[Christbiscuit]

He showed more promise than Kvyat or Albon have thus far, no?

[derstatic]

Gasly was promoted too soon, RB themselves have said so even before the season started. There is huge pressure to perform and Verstappen is one of the toughest benchmarks there is. He clearly has not delivered, but options are not that great either. Add to that we don't even know what they are looking for. Is it a potential replacement fror Verstappen to lead the team, or a solid backup to score points for the WCC. Neither of Kvyat, Albon or Gasly are potential team leaders imo. At least not for next season. All of them could develop to dependable team drivers but will need time and patience. RB could try to bring Buemi or Vergne back to F1, but there is no guarantee they would want to, or at which level they would be after many years out of F1. It's a bit of a dilemma and the wisest thing to do imo is to wait and not do anything at all at this moment. Gasly could still improve, he's no mug. Kvyat and especially Albon needs more time to show they can consistently perform at a very high level. As options are limited give it 2019, possibly even 2020 (as long as Verstappen stays on) and see where it goes.

[Tsarwash]

 

Sainz is good but IMO was clearly a step below Verstappen. Even now, he is only slightly ahead of rookie Norris when he should be spanking him.

 

Sainz is on 48 points, Norris on 22. Is that 'only slightly ahead' ? 

[JacobRPP]

Maybe RBR should try and pick up one of the solid midfielders like Perez, Hulkenberg, Grosjean or Magnussen for a year or two, and then promote Albon, to get that experienced driver in the second car that scores points within the top 6 each GP. I think the rest are "safe" with their teams.

[NixxxoN]

Albon looks like he is more or less matching Kvyat in his rookie season, and with few mistakes.
If they demote Gasly, its a no brainer to go for Albon.
 
That is, if Sainz was still in mind of RB drivers, in that case I'd pick Sainz easily over any other driver to partner Max... but I dont think so, he's no longer a RB driver, and I dont think he wants to partner Max again either (as they made max a clear number 1)
 
By the way, Marko made it clear that no driver changes are going to be made mid-season.
 

Sainz is a Trulli, Irvine, Barrichello something Redbull knew already. Sure he was close to Verstappen in their Toro Rosso years but only because he had more years in cars. He should have been outshining Norris this year but he's not, and he is still error prone.

I would say Sainz is a Nico Rosberg type of driver, maybe not the fastest or most talented of all, but very intelligent and hard working driver who tries to improve all the time and definitely doesnt want to settle for a number 2 seat... and he can be successful in F1 if he keeps on working hard.

He HAS outshone Norris on sundays and doesn't make many mistakes, not error prone. I only remember a mistake in qualy some races ago and yesterdays mistake at the corner of death, which he managed to escape, while others like Hulk, Hamilton and Leclerc could not.

Edited by NixxxoN, 29 July 2019 - 16:01.

[SenorSjon]

That was before both juniors were in front of Gasly and Gasly almost eliminated Albon.

[derstatic]

Sainz is a Trulli, Irvine, Barrichello something Redbull knew already. Sure he was close to Verstappen in their Toro Rosso years but only because he had more years in cars. He should have been outshining Norris this year but he's not, and he is still error prone. 

 

Lots of that "category" of drivers have been very useful for their teams and had very good and long careers. I don't agree he's very error prone. On Sundays he seem quite dependable to bring home the bacon.

[taran]

Sainz is on 48 points, Norris on 22. Is that 'only slightly ahead' ? 

 

True, but points only show part of the story. When a driver in his 5th year goes against a rookie, you expect the experienced driver to qualify ahead most of the time while the rookie is learning.In races, you expect the rookie to be fast but a tad erratic while the experienced driver shows solid performance.

 

At McLaren, Norris is matching Sainz in qualifying and races IMO. I can't recall any race where Norris was significantly off the pace of Sainz.

Actual points are due to reliability and race strategies.

 

So in my opinion Sainz hasn't been much better than Norris but they clearly work well together and both are doing a good job for McLaren.

I do feel that if McLaren joins the front of the grid, Sainz might be lacking that last bit of talent to do full justice to a competitive McLaren.

YMMV.

[potmotr]

Quite ironic, but Gasly appears to be a death spiral eerily similar to his 2018 team mate Brendon Hartley.

Each mistake and poor performance is magnified and the pressure increases further.

 

From Monaco onwards last year Hartley was being asked each weekend about his future with the team, whether he was about to lose his seat.

 

Eventually Marko made a similar statement and said Hartley was safe until the end of the year, and not beyond.

 

Gasly seems to be in that position too. 

 

I don't see him coming back from it... 

[Rodaknee]

Kvyat did a great job of winding up Vettel last time he drove the RB, for the sake of the team, he needs to be back in there asap.

 

[speedx]

Dr. Marko about Gasly:

In qualifying he has shown a strong reaction to his accident. The speed in the race would not have been so bad, but the Gasly is just too weak in a duel and overtaking. The crash at the end with Albon was completely unnecessary."

[noikeee]

I think the Red Bull driver programme has always been about finding star drivers, not finding good drivers.

If you look at former Toro Rosso drivers, very few of them were hopeless. But equally most of them weren't Schumacher or Vettel 'good'. Which is why a Buemi for example got his marching papers.

 

Sainz is good but IMO was clearly a step below Verstappen. Even now, he is only slightly ahead of rookie Norris when he should be spanking him. Sure, Sainz is generally a solid driver and in this case would have done a better job in the second Red Bull but Marko is looking for a next Vettel, not another #2 driver.

 

The irony is that if Sainz had been patient and accepted another year at Toro Rosso, he would have been in the Red Bull this year....

 

Yeah this has worked for Red Bull so far, BUT right now what they need is exactly a "good" driver not a "star" driver in that 2nd seat. And they've been binning them right left and center and the only remaining driver that's remotely in that mould is Kvyat 2.0. Maybe Albon will become one of those too, but he's not there yet.

 

Gasly being given the dreaded vote of confidence in the press, reminds me how this usually happens to football managers 2 weeks before getting sacked...

[septerra]

Hot damn, I just realised 7 out of the 20 drivers on the current grid are from the RBR family. 

[noikeee]

Hot damn, I just realised 7 out of the 20 drivers on the current grid are from the RBR family. 

And the likes of Vergne and Buemi would easily deserve a place in this grid if things worked out slightly differently. Maybe even Alguersuari if he hadn't stopped racing. Maybe even Felix da Costa could've made it.

 

RBR had a mental amount of talent for years and years in the junior series. It's only really in recent years that it's started to dry out, yet it's maybe not over yet, keep an eye on Vips.

[sopa]

Looking at how things are evolving, I wouldn't be exactly shocked if Red Bull indeed brought Kvyat back in place of Gasly. Although that would seem like a massive turn of irony.  I can't help but feel it has been a bit circumstancial that things are working out as they are with Gasly failing in RBR and Kvyat moving up to 8th in the championship in Toro Rosso. Meanwhile Gasly has been qualifying pretty fine recently, and conversely I wouldn't be shocked if Kvyat falls apart if he is paired with the super-fast Max. I don't think Kvyat is doing anything special, he is doing a bit like 2015 - a solid job, helped by a bit of luck to score as well as he does. I mean in 2015 Kvyat was slower than Ricciardo, but races came to him, so he scored consistent points and - well - ended ahead of Ricci on points. No guarantee such season would get repeated.

[NoForumForOldPole]

Doctor has voted Nein!

 

(...) However, Dr Helmut Marko - Red Bull's ruthless driver manager - is ruling out changing the driver lineups at Toro Rosso or Red Bull at least for the rest of 2019.

"We have the teams that we have and we will finish the season that way," he said.

 

https://grandprix.co...at-in-2019.html

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 30 July 2019 - 19:34.

[Rodaknee]

Doctor has voted Nein!

 

(...) However, Dr Helmut Marko - Red Bull's ruthless driver manager - is ruling out changing the driver lineups at Toro Rosso or Red Bull at least for the rest of 2019.

"We have the teams that we have and we will finish the season that way," he said.

 

https://grandprix.co...at-in-2019.html

 

If the head of Red Bull's driver development programme isn't producing the goods, the logical decision would be to replace him. 

[tghik]

This thread is premature, Gasly has just shown a big jump in performance, should be given at least a couple of more races to see if it's permanent or just flash

Edited by tghik, 31 July 2019 - 03:44.

[RacingGreen]

Hot damn, I just realised 7 out of the 20 drivers on the current grid are from the RBR family. 

 

 

If the head of Red Bull's driver development programme isn't producing the goods, the logical decision would be to replace him. 

 

Seems like the Dr isn't doing such a bad job then is he. Of course sometimes good young drivers appear in batches, each pushing one another to a higher level. From the latest group we have McLaren's Norris, Mercedes' Russell and Albon at STR, plus last year's Ferrari got Leclerc. Maybe the good Dr could have signed one of those others but couldn't really sign two of them. In the lower formulae at present Red Bull have Lucas Auer in Super Formula and Patricio O'Ward, then a few others in F3 & F4 etc. He tried Dan Ticktum but that as we know didn't work out. In short nobody ready for a F1 drive, or really setting the World alight domestically. Maybe he has missed out signing a rising star in F2 but can't really see who, 

 

As for the Gasly question without access to the Dr's data all we really know is he is faster than Hartley was, not fast enough to push Max yet, but still young enough to be on the steep part of the learning curve. I'd let him see the season out as I'm not convinced RBR are ready to go championship hunting again and don't think that sort of mid-season disruption would be helpful at this stage. That said with the team's upturn in form from Max's side of the garage I'd be looking closely at all my other three contracted drivers before deciding on the 2020 line up. 

[JeePee]

This thread is premature, Gasly has just shown a big jump in performance, should be given at least a couple of more races to see if it's permanent or just flash

He made the jump from unacceptable-far-behind to far-behind. I hope it's not permanent and he keeps improving.

[sofarapartguy]

Haven't posted in a long time, glad to be back.

 

Watching Gasly this year made me consider two things:

1. Last year Toro Rosso was actually a pretty decent car

2. Hartley was probably not up to the level of F1 standart

 

I did not follow Gasly closely in lower series but in F1 I guess his main issue apart from being a lot slower than Max (which is still a mystery) is wheel to wheel racing and overtakes. It takes him huge time to make a pass so in races he just drops down the field unable to clear slow cars. He had a perfect go on Albon and then just showed poor overtaking judgement. 

 

Kinda sad as I was really rooting for him last year.  

Edited by sofarapartguy, 31 July 2019 - 07:50.

[Lennat]

We have seen twice now what happens when red bull promote too early. But then again, look at how well norris is doing as a rookie.

 

Against Sainz, who was beaten by the Hulk, who was beaten by Ric, who was beaten by Max... 

 

Sainz isn't a bad driver at all, but you can't compare the pressure of driving against Max as a teram mate. I am convinced both Sainz and Norris would have looked really mediocre next to Max or Alonso.

 

But Gasly can't be THIS bad for real, hopefully he can improve, even though I probably do think Kvyat is a bit more talented.

[Talisman]

Albon looks like he is more or less matching Kvyat in his rookie season, and with few mistakes.
If they demote Gasly, its a no brainer to go for Albon.
 
That is, if Sainz was still in mind of RB drivers, in that case I'd pick Sainz easily over any other driver to partner Max... but I dont think so, he's no longer a RB driver, and I dont think he wants to partner Max again either (as they made max a clear number 1)
 
By the way, Marko made it clear that no driver changes are going to be made mid-season.
 

I would say Sainz is a Nico Rosberg type of driver, maybe not the fastest or most talented of all, but very intelligent and hard working driver who tries to improve all the time and definitely doesnt want to settle for a number 2 seat... and he can be successful in F1 if he keeps on working hard.

He HAS outshone Norris on sundays and doesn't make many mistakes, not error prone. I only remember a mistake in qualy some races ago and yesterdays mistake at the corner of death, which he managed to escape, while others like Hulk, Hamilton and Leclerc could not.

 

Promoting Albon would be even more foolhardy a decison than promoting Gasly was last year. 

 

Sure Albon has been impressive but he lacks experience and may find it difficult to adjust to an RBR, especially one that has proven to be difficult for a more experienced driver like Gasly to get the best out of.  Kvyat is a far safer choice in this respect simply due to his knowledge of the inner workings of the RBR team and multi-season experience with different cars.

 

I can't see Sainz being in the picture.  McLaren are not only happy with him, they've exercised an option for 2020 already.  Thus if RBR decide to go for him they'd have to factor in the cost of buying him out of the McLaren contract which makes him a significantly less attractive target.  In that sense he's made himself irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Other than the Red Bull juniors there are two other options for 2020.  Bottas if he falls out of favour at Mercedes and Hulkenberg if the same happens at Renault.  Neither may be WDC material but both have significant experience and would be close enough to Max to help for a championship challenge next year.  Both would find an RBR offer difficult to resist IMO.

 

Also as RBR sorts out its downforce issues and makes the car more competitive and therefore easier to drive it should flatter Gasly more and help narrow the gap.  I think that is why Gasly has improved slightly over the past few races, his DNF in Germany notwithstanding.

Edited by Talisman, 31 July 2019 - 08:16.

[Burai]

The irony is that if Sainz had been patient and accepted another year at Toro Rosso, he would have been in the Red Bull this year....

 

Had been patient and had a crystal ball, you mean. Nobody saw Ricciardo's move to Renault coming.

[SophieB]

Motorsport.com‏Verified account @Motorsport 1m1 minute ago

More

Kvyat ready for Red Bull return, but Gasly deserves more time - Tost #F1

https://t.co/1IIhRFCuCW

[Jon83]

I think Albon has more chances than Kyviat honestly.
 

 

Long-term, maybe.

 

But Gasly clearly wasn't ready for the top team seat after a good year at Toro Rosso and they might be reluctant to risk it with Albon so soon.

 

I think putting Kvyat back in is probably the only option if they want to make a change. I guess the question is, does Kvyat deserve it on the basis of this season? Only a couple of years ago, Red Bull didn't think he was good enough to be in the sport!
 

Edited by Jon83, 31 July 2019 - 08:41.

[NoForumForOldPole]

JV votes 'non':

https://www.autospor...ok-beyond-kvyat

[NixxxoN]

Promoting Albon would be even more foolhardy a decison than promoting Gasly was last year.

Sure Albon has been impressive but he lacks experience and may find it difficult to adjust to an RBR, especially one that has proven to be difficult for a more experienced driver like Gasly to get the best out of. Kvyat is a far safer choice in this respect simply due to his knowledge of the inner workings of the RBR team and multi-season experience with different cars.

I can't see Sainz being in the picture. McLaren are not only happy with him, they've exercised an option for 2020 already. Thus if RBR decide to go for him they'd have to factor in the cost of buying him out of the McLaren contract which makes him a significantly less attractive target. In that sense he's made himself irrelevant to the discussion.

Other than the Red Bull juniors there are two other options for 2020. Bottas if he falls out of favour at Mercedes and Hulkenberg if the same happens at Renault. Neither may be WDC material but both have significant experience and would be close enough to Max to help for a championship challenge next year. Both would find an RBR offer difficult to resist IMO.

Also as RBR sorts out its downforce issues and makes the car more competitive and therefore easier to drive it should flatter Gasly more and help narrow the gap. I think that is why Gasly has improved slightly over the past few races, his DNF in Germany notwithstanding.

Gasly is only 1 year more experienced than Albon, thats about it. I'm not saying Albon is a very obvious choice and not saying he did amazingly well... just that I'd give easily a chance to him rather than a second one to Kvyat.

Against Sainz, who was beaten by the Hulk, who was beaten by Ric, who was beaten by Max...

Such a simplistic analysis and you know it.

[Spillage]

It was pretty harsh to ditch him in the first place but no, I don't think he's the best option out there. It's too soon for Albon so if they do want to replace Gasly without remaking the same mistake then they need to look outside their young driver programme.

There are endless drivers they could hire to do this - Perez and Hulkenberg would both make solid, experienced number 2s to Max in the way Webber was for Vettel. Then they could also take a punt on some talented youth - I wonder if they could poach George Russell?

[NoForumForOldPole]

Who was last Red Bull driver from outside Red Bull's stable? Mark W?

What are the chances Doctor will sign an outsider now?

Zero, I think.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 31 July 2019 - 15:32.

[Tsarwash]

Kvyat has ten races to effectively resurrect his F1 career. 

[Rodaknee]

Rb are obsessive about having young drivers, then they fail to let them mature.  They've only given one driver at extended period in both teams, Daniel Ricciardo - then Marko pissed him off, like that hasn't happened before.  The RB driver problems are of their own making.  Marko has only hit gold once, with Vettel.  Their academy is a washout, as is the grumpy sod who runs it. 

 

Verstappen wasn't really part of RB junior team.  He signed in August and drove the TR a few months later. The Doctor can't lay claim to having had much influence on Max's career.  He just got in there before Mercedes.

[Spillage]

Who was last Red Bull driver from outside Red Bull's stable? Mark W?

What are the chances Doctor will sign an outsider now?

Zero, I think.

Wasn't Verstappen effectively outside their stable? He was signed to their junior team and immediately given the Toro Rosso drive. They could surely do the same again now, and I think the circumstances suggest they probably should.

[shurajan]

Rb are obsessive about having young drivers, then they fail to let them mature. They've only given one driver at extended period in both teams, Daniel Ricciardo - then Marko pissed him off, like that hasn't happened before. The RB driver problems are of their own making. Marko has only hit gold once, with Vettel. Their academy is a washout, as is the grumpy sod who runs it.

Verstappen wasn't really part of RB junior team. He signed in August and drove the TR a few months later. The Doctor can't lay claim to having had much influence on Max's career. He just got in there before Mercedes.

How many rb related drivers were in points in Germany?
5 out of 10 with 3 on podium.
This is very impressive statistics given that these drivers delivered in rainy conditions. This gives an idea of the average quality.

Additionally each young driver in F1 is a huge(millions and millions euros) investment for a team with young driver program. Tossing then like rb did in the past is waste of money and Kvyat, Vergne, Albon prove that several policies should be followed normally:
- 3 years in TRto get proper experience before promotion to RB
- no mid season drops should happen as this is damaging to young drivers

At this point Albon needs time to develop and prove he can deliver on distance

[NoForumForOldPole]

Wasn't Verstappen effectively outside their stable? He was signed to their junior team and immediately given the Toro Rosso drive. They could surely do the same again now, and I think the circumstances suggest they probably should.

 

Fair enough. Last driver who was not RB associated (STR or Pre-F1) and went straight to RBR was Mark W.

[Zerobyte]

No let Pierre in the car for the rest of the season its now to late the second place for the teams WDC is gone.

[PedroDiCasttro]

The dilemma is still on.