98 replies to this topic

[Beri]

The way things are going, it may well be that Panthera just buys up another team that is going under during the Rona.

Oh dear, the first hippie word for the current pandemic.

[jjcale]

Oh dear, the first hippie word for the current pandemic.

 

You just hearing this word, Daddy-o? .... its been around for a couple months, at least.  

[Beri]

It may be, but it's still the first abbreviation. And one with a high hippie rate.

[noikeee]

Adrian Campos is a real racer, he did 2 years of F1 and had a wealth of experience of running a team in GP2 / F2 so he comes from the autosport community and he's not stupid, he wouldn't want to enter if he thought it was impossible to produce a car that can perform at a decent level (and that's most importantly significantly quicker as the 107% limit)...

 

Well, why did the last team he entered only perform at right about barely the 107% limit then?

 

Yes, I know that was under very special circumstances of a budget cap that didn't come to life, but we're again under a new proposed budget cap that may or may not come to life as intended, and at the beginning of quite possibly the worst recession in decades. This is even worse circumstances than when the original Campos team eventually started racing as HRT.

[noikeee]

Oh dear, the first hippie word for the current pandemic.

 

"Hippie"??? Are you okay, grandad?

[William Hunt]

Well, why did the last team he entered only perform at right about barely the 107% limit then?

 

Yes, I know that was under very special circumstances of a budget cap that didn't come to life, but we're again under a new proposed budget cap that may or may not come to life as intended, and at the beginning of quite possibly the worst recession in decades. This is even worse circumstances than when the original Campos team eventually started racing as HRT.

 

Adrian Campos had, together with Lotus and Virgin Marussia, entered F1 under Mosley's promise of a severe budget cap. When that didn't materialise and not enough sponsorship money was coming in he decided to back out of the project and sell it, so Hispania Racing Team (HRT) was not his team and he had entered under conditions that turned out to be completely false. That HRT was so slow was because Dallara who was building the car did not receive the amount of payment that they needed and they stopped developing the car and ended up giving HRT a car that was actually more a GP2 Dallara adjusted to F1 rules, it was an upgraded GP2 car, I think the drivers (Senna & Chandhok) did a reasonable job with it considering that.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 May 2020 - 18:59.

[Hakki069]

The way things are going, it may well be that Panthera just buys up another team that is going under during the Rona.

That would be the most likely route. If Willams is on its last legs or Mercedes or Renault decide they've had enough. Buying an existing operation would certainly be a big head start

Edited by Hakki069, 08 May 2020 - 15:55.

[PayasYouRace]

It may be, but it's still the first abbreviation. And one with a high hippie rate.

 

How does one measure Hippies/second? Also a bit unfair going after the hippies. They're all pensioners now.

[thequadge]

I put the chances of any new teams until at least 2025 at <1%...

[noikeee]

Adrian Camps had, together with Lotus and Virgin Marussia, entered F1 under Mosley's promise of a severe budget cap. When that didn't materialise and not enough sponsorship money was coming in he decided to back out of the project and sell it, so Hispania Racing Team (HRT) was not his team and he had entered under conditions that turned out to be completely false. That HRT was so slow was because Dallara who was building the car did not receive the amount of payment that they needed and they stopped developing the car and ended up giving HRT a car that was actually more a GP2 Dallara adjusted to F1 rules, it was an upgraded GP2 car, I think the drivers (Senna & Chandhok) did a reasonable job with it considering that.

Yes, I understand. But what is preventing the exact same thing from happening again...?

[absinthedude]

I think HRT did pretty well with the meagre resources they always had. They produced a well turned out car, two credible drivers and finished races. If any hypothetical new team can come in cold and do that, they're doing OK. Following the Haas model maybe they can be mid-grid from the start if everything falls in place. 

[William Hunt]

Yes, I understand. But what is preventing the exact same thing from happening again...?

 

The point is: it should be allowed to happen, for a small team to enter regardless if they can compete for the midfield or would run in the back. Teams like Larrousse, Minardi, Onyx, Jordan, Forti... were allowed to enter and some (like Forti) failed, some where there for multiple seasons and some, like Jordan, succeeded. But any team capable of entering should be allowed that chance and that includes the chance to fail.
Those smaller outfitd gave a lot of flavour to F1, it gave diversity / variety and a lot of talented young drivers got in to F1 because those smaller teams existed, also F1 historians embrace those teams now as part of what made F1 so interesting in the past.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 May 2020 - 19:04.

[jjcale]

I think HRT did pretty well with the meagre resources they always had. They produced a well turned out car, two credible drivers and finished races. If any hypothetical new team can come in cold and do that, they're doing OK. Following the Haas model maybe they can be mid-grid from the start if everything falls in place. 

 

Exactly .... HRT gave us DR .... I dont see the problem.

[ATM]

True that; accent for me on the “more seats for drivers” part. As long as they can respect the 107% rule, I see no problem with them running at the back of the queue.
As for the pinaccle angle, I’m afraid F1 needs to lay aside the silver spoon and understand that the more the merrier. Especially in these strange days.

[Dolph]

"Hippie"??? Are you okay, grandad?

 

Stop being such a hippie, hippie. 

[Dolph]

Exactly .... HRT gave us DR .... I dont see the problem.

 

No they didn't. Red Bull financed the HRT adventure as they claimed it was cheaper than GP2. DR would have be in F1 regardless because of Red Bull caffeinated sugar money.

Edited by Dolph, 08 May 2020 - 20:33.

[Anja]

https://www.racefans...r-future-brawn/

 

Ross Brawn is at it again: who needs new teams? I just don't understand why he's so adamant about it. He doesn't want new teams now, because they're not good and serious enough, but seems to think that if one of the current ones exits he'll have someone to replace them just like that. Yeah, right. F1 is absolutely in no position to be so picky and selective right now. If someone wants to enter and they pass the basic checks, just be glad that they're not deterred by the current state of the sport and welcome them with open arms. What on earth do you have to lose?

Edited by Anja, 15 June 2020 - 08:49.

[P123]

https://www.racefans...r-future-brawn/

 

Ross Brawn is at it again: who needs new teams? I just don't understand why he's so adamant about it. He doesn't want new teams now, because they're not good and serious enough, but seems to think that if one of the current ones exits he'll have someone to replace them just like that. Yeah, right. F1 is absolutely in no position to be so picky and selective right now. If someone wants to enter and they pass the basic checks, just be glad that they're not deterred by the current state of the sport and welcome them with open arms. What on earth do you have to lose?

It ensures the value of the teams on the current grid remains high, and if anybody wishes to get a foothold then they are better doing it through one of the current teams, like Williams or Sauber.

[statman]

It's still one of my favorite scenarios when for example Mercedes decides to drop out of F1 as both a team and an engine supplier and to see the faces of Brawn & co. Panic ensues.

[krapmeister]

It's still one of my favorite scenarios when for example Mercedes decides to drop out of F1 as both a team and an engine supplier and to see the faces of Brawn & co. Panic ensues.

 

Maybe Ross actually wants to setup Brawn GP again... 

[Hakki069]

It's still one of my favorite scenarios when for example Mercedes decides to drop out of F1 as both a team and an engine supplier and to see the faces of Brawn & co. Panic ensues.

I think so too. Despite the repeated denials I'm still not convinced Mercedes will stay past the end of 2021 as a works team with the new rules and cars coming which naturally pegs the advantages of the top 3. The engine supplier looks pretty certain long term but for sure covid-19 makes it all very unpredictable.

But if Mercedes did pull out you I'd expect a DTM style announcement this summer of 1.5 years notice. It's not Daimler style to just drop a bomb like that.

But I think it's debatable how upset Ross and liberty would actually be if Mercedes pulled the team. With them being so dominant, them pulling out and being bought out with let's say Mazepin for example for 2022. That would maybe be good for liberty. Definitely levels the grid.

[Anderis]

https://www.racefans...r-future-brawn/

 

Ross Brawn is at it again: who needs new teams? I just don't understand why he's so adamant about it. He doesn't want new teams now, because they're not good and serious enough, but seems to think that if one of the current ones exits he'll have someone to replace them just like that. Yeah, right. F1 is absolutely in no position to be so picky and selective right now. If someone wants to enter and they pass the basic checks, just be glad that they're not deterred by the current state of the sport and welcome them with open arms. What on earth do you have to lose?

I also want to see more than 10 teams in F1 but I get his point about the precarious situaton caused by the pandemic. To make a 11th team viable- the current teams would need to share some income with it, which could put some of them under even more financial difficulties.

 

I think that F1 should ultimately strive for a healthy grid of 12 teams but the pandemic is something that F1 has not been ready for and maybe it's not the right moment to push for the expansion of the grid.

 

That might be not the only reason why Brawn says what he says- I think he is under pressure by current teams not to rush with allowing more teams into F1 (for the income sharing reasons) and he doesn't want to annoy the big teams too much after pushing for the budget cap and more equal share of TV money just recently. I hope he changes his stance when the things become more stable in a couple of years, hopefully.

Edited by Anderis, 15 June 2020 - 10:31.

[HistoryFan]

if there would be more teams, they had to give out more money. And that's not that what they want to do. Unfortunately.

[Myrvold]

if there would be more teams, they had to give out more money. And that's not that what they want to do. Unfortunately.

Nope, the money given would be shared between more teams.

I don't see the issue though, 26 cars (13 teams) would suddenly make F1 look like one of the more healthy championships out there. That can only be a positive! And, for F1's wishes to expand. More spots to potentially get a driver from USA and from China on to the grid.

[ARTGP]

Nope, the money given would be shared between more teams.

I don't see the issue though, 26 cars (13 teams) would suddenly make F1 look like one of the more healthy championships out there. That can only be a positive! And, for F1's wishes to expand. More spots to potentially get a driver from USA and from China on to the grid.

 

 

On the one hand, yes more teams, brings more sponsors and more eyes to the sport in theory. But with the brilliant TV coverage, would you even know there was more than 6 cars in a race weekend? Kind of makes the fussing about team 11 and team 12 seem moot. 

Edited by ARTGP, 15 June 2020 - 18:46.

[Myrvold]

On the one hand, yes more teams, brings more sponsors and more eyes to the sport in theory. But with the brilliant TV coverage, would you even know there was more than 6 cars in a race weekend? Kind of makes the fussing about team 11 and team 12 seem moot. 

I'm not the right guy to answer that theory - I loved the seasons with 12 teams in 2010-2012. But I also love the small teams, so not really the right guy to answer that.

 

Then again, I've noticed it in IndyCar as the field there has grown. MotoGP has grown from it's low point as well. So I would guess that you'd notice it.

[William Hunt]

this attitude of Brawn is making me very very angry and it's so dishonest to people who want to enter F1 and are blocked, no free competition allowed

Panthera should go to court if they want to enter, you can't just refuse competitors if they qualify and follow the rules in an international sport, he is just protecting the financial interest of the current teams

It also shows how little respect Brawn has for the fans, for young drivers wanting to break in to F1 and for the history of the sport and how the independent teams made that history so epic
It's people like Ross Brawn that are pushing me to a point that I may not even want to follow this sport anymore

Edited by William Hunt, 15 June 2020 - 21:11.

[ARTGP]

I'm not the right guy to answer that theory - I loved the seasons with 12 teams in 2010-2012. But I also love the small teams, so not really the right guy to answer that.

 

Then again, I've noticed it in IndyCar as the field there has grown. MotoGP has grown from it's low point as well. So I would guess that you'd notice it.

 

Yeah but in 2010-2012, we had almost every team either winning races or featuring on the podium. So yeah that was nice.

 

But in F1 in 2020, we do not have that level of parity amongst teams with regards to spending or performance. I'm not sure the new cost cap Formula will take us there. So it's just a hunch on my part that new teams would just be backmarkers and not relevant unless they are ignoring blue flags. I don't recall anything of Caterham, Marussia, and HRT. But maybe that's on me. They rarely scored points nevermind podiums.

[Mohican]

this attitude of Brawn is making me very very angry and it's so dishonest to people who want to enter F1 and are blocked, no free competition allowed

Panthera should go to court if they want to enter, you can't just refuse competitors if they qualify and follow the rules in an international sport, he is just protecting the financial interest of the current teams

It also shows how little respect Brawn has for the fans, for young drivers wanting to break in to F1 and for the history of the sport and how the independent teams made that history so epic
It's people like Ross Brawn that are pushing me to a point that I may not even want to follow this sport anymore

 

Agree with you, except that it is Liberty's financial interests that Brawn is protecting - or at least what he perceives Liberty's interests to be.

As long as the legacy/heritage/whatever payments are still there, the sport is structured in a hopelessly unfair manner tht will continue to deter anybody new trying to enter. That Renault, Sauber, Alpha Tauri, Racing Point and Haas are treated as pariahs when even Williams gets paid is to my mind borderline criminal behaviour. I know that all this was introduced by Bernie, which just goes to prove my point.

[Mohican]

Yeah but in 2010-2012, we had almost every team either winning races or featuring on the podium. So yeah that was nice.

 

But in F1 in 2020, we do not have that level of parity amongst teams with regards to spending or performance. I'm not sure the new cost cap Formula will take us there. So it's just a hunch on my part that new teams would just be backmarkers and not relevant unless they are ignoring blue flags. I don't recall anything of Caterham, Marussia, and HRT. But maybe that's on me. They rarely scored points nevermind podiums.

 

There is too much focus on the budget cap, which in reality only affects two or three teams, and by far too little attention paid to the income of the teams. FOM should just pay each team 10% of funds allocated to the participants and then allow everyone to get on with it. Rewarding past performance such as McLaren last winning in 2008, or Williiams in 1997, is deeply immoral and unethical. As is rewarding Ferrari for last winning 13 years ago. 13 years...

[Sterzo]

this attitude of Brawn is making me very very angry and it's so dishonest to people who want to enter F1 and are blocked, no free competition allowed

It's become a fashion to attack Brawn, Todt et al for things they haven't said. We really ought to go back to their exact quoted words, not react to inaccurate headlines or other posters' intepretation. Brawn's words, to which I've added emphasis:

 

"For the moment everything is based around 10 teams and I don’t think in this climate we would be looking to add teams imminently,” said Brawn.

“You never know what’s around the corner and, of course, we’re creating a much more viable economic environment for the teams, so I’m sure people will now look at it in a different perspective than perhaps they looked at Formula 1 two or three years ago.

“But we have 10 teams, they’re great teams, we know some of them need some support and so we’re focussed on making putting those 10 teams in the best possible position.

“So I don’t think the question of extra teams is one that we’re focussed on at the moment.”

 

F1 was in a mess financially before Covid-19. They're trying to sort it, to make F1 viable and sustainable for existing and potential teams. That makes a lot more sense than carrying on regardless and inviting new teams to join now and collapse tomorrow.

[maximilian]

Franchise system is BS.

[Bleu]

The problem is that there was huge difference between 10th and 11th place in WCC financially. And it's the same regardless of 10th and 11th team being without points (2010-14) or the situation where all teams would score 20 points or so.

[Beri]

The problem is that there was huge difference between 10th and 11th place in WCC financially. And it's the same regardless of 10th and 11th team being without points (2010-14) or the situation where all teams would score 20 points or so.

I think it's even more problematic that Ferrari banks 73 million per annum just to show up. 73 million divided by 10 teams would make at least 5 out of those 10 teams happy to receive.

[jpm2019]

I put the chances of any new teams until at least 2025 at <1%...

I don't agree. The cost cap can make it very cheap to enter F1. Also I am pretty sure some teams will drop out in the next 5 years. No way those gaps will not be filled. 

[Nathan]

Cheap"?  Are you a billionaire? You speak like one..  Nothing is going to change cost wise for the Haas and Stroll types which gives us an idea of the fiscal capacity one needs to come play.  $50mln in available free cash flow to subsidize each year and at least the same to get started requires a big cow.

 

I think it's even more problematic that Ferrari banks 73 million per annum just to show up. 73 million divided by 10 teams would make at least 5 out of those 10 teams happy to receive.

 I bet the team distribution pot would drop more than $73 million if Ferrari got paid the same to do Indy and Le Mans exclusively instead.

Edited by Nathan, 16 June 2020 - 21:04.

[ForzaFormula]

Sigh.....it's not a Frankenstein car hobbled (or cobbled) together with parts from here and there.

And the heritage of F1 certainly involves plenty of customer parts and even off the peg customer cars and engines.

Sometimes I really scratch my head when reading these forums.

Exactly seems many on here fail to grasp this is f1. Welcome any new teams on the grid, hopefully this turns true.

[Beri]

Cheap"?  Are you a billionaire? You speak like one..  Nothing is going to change cost wise for the Haas and Stroll types which gives us an idea of the fiscal capacity one needs to come play.  $50mln in available free cash flow to subsidize each year and at least the same to get started requires a big cow.

 

 I bet the team distribution pot would drop more than $73 million if Ferrari got paid the same to do Indy and Le Mans exclusively instead.

 

I seriously think F1 is over the point where it had to retain Ferrari at all costs. Ferrari is more dependent on F1 than the other way around as it stands.

[F1matt]

I think it's even more problematic that Ferrari banks 73 million per annum just to show up. 73 million divided by 10 teams would make at least 5 out of those 10 teams happy to receive.

 

 

The extra money clearly doesn't help Ferrari, they are woeful how can they have such a huge budget but be so far off wining either title. In theory things will get even worse under the budget cap and it is hard to see how they will win the title when we have financial restrictions, they will be the ones who lobby the hardest for them to be removed IMO. The series would be much better if you were rewarded only for the previous seasons performance. 

 

As a footnote I would love to see a new team enter the sport and be competitive, it would give everything a shake and change the status quo. 

Edited by F1matt, 17 June 2020 - 08:51.

[PayasYouRace]

 

As a footnote I would love to see a new team enter the sport and be competitive, it would give everything a shake and change the status quo. 

 

That's pretty much what Haas has done. So I'd like to see more of that. A lot of people seem to assume that a new team can only be an "embarrassing" backmarker. But it doesn't have to be.

[BRG]

 I bet the team distribution pot would drop more than $73 million if Ferrari got paid the same to do Indy and Le Mans exclusively instead.

  Who is going to PAY Ferrari to run at Indy or Le Mans?  If they go to race at either, they are going to have to finance it from their own resources. 

 

That's pretty much what Haas has done. So I'd like to see more of that. A lot of people seem to assume that a new team can only be an "embarrassing" backmarker. But it doesn't have to be.

Although Haas has proved to be an embarrassing mid-fielder on occasions....

[Myrvold]

  Who is going to PAY Ferrari to run at Indy or Le Mans?  If they go to race at either, they are going to have to finance it from their own resources. 

 

Phillip Morris and Shell?

[Beri]

That's pretty much what Haas has done. So I'd like to see more of that. A lot of people seem to assume that a new team can only be an "embarrassing" backmarker. But it doesn't have to be.

 

Its not that they are at the front of the midfield pack now are they?

[BRG]

Phillip Morris and Shell?

Exactly.  Certainly not Roger Penske or the ACO, neither of whom are going to fund Ferrari just for being there.

[PayasYouRace]

Its not that they are at the front of the midfield pack now are they?

 

They've been competitive. That's all that was asked for.

[Beri]

They've been competitive. That's all that was asked for.

 

I could go on to rant about the level of competitiveness. But since we both have a different view on the word competitive in terms of F1, its wise not to do so.

I do think Haas offers more than just fielding two cars. But I have got the feeling that the budgetcap is something that Haas clearly wanted to have happened earlier. I hope its not too late and that the Haas way is becoming a successful one. Because that would show anyone they could field a car and be succesful with the bare minimum of resources.

[Nathan]

Exactly.  Certainly not Roger Penske or the ACO, neither of whom are going to fund Ferrari just for being there.

 

Penske could, ACO can't.  Roger knows how to do math.

[Sterzo]

I could go on to rant about the level of competitiveness.

Many things are ill-defined, but we do have an accepted definition of competitive in F1: the 107% rule. It's very rare for any current team to get near to exclusion. Whereas if you take the first world championship GP, the first 15 cars were within 107% of pole but the remaining six weren't. The tail end was 16% slower. Nobody complained; terms like "a sporting effort" were used.

[Pete_f1]

We might have to be thankful of whatever we can get