103 replies to this topic

[Macca]

After the topics of the MM and FoS (not to mention attendees at the Gold Cup), can we have a thread for this? Is anyone else going?

 

Does anyone know of any interesting cars that will be there for the first time? Or have access to an entry list?

 

I last went two years ago on the Friday only (and got very wet) but this year I'm going on Friday and Sunday (or reasons I may go into later if anyone is interested, I have a suspicion that the days of race meetings on the circuit are numbered, so I want to go while I can)

 

Last time I was concerned to see new 'hospitality/members' areas had displaced parts of the outer paddock further on to the airfield; I wonder if there will be any changes for this year.

 

 

Paul M

[geoffd]

Here's a link to the entry list. https://www.goodwood...t-v8-090919.pdf I'm looking forward to another fine event!

 

Geoff

[Allan Lupton]

Some interesting ideas for the untrained historian, e.g.

 

Race(s): 9 Richmond & Gordon Trophies - For front-engined Grand Prix cars of a type that raced between 1952 and 1960

Of the 30 entries listed 16 seem to be rear-engined.

[ensign14]

I'm just doing the Friday, I need some time off else I'll go berserk.  Looking forward to the Realpha and the Cegga.  As well as the 500s.  Love those little buzzbombs.

 

Which makes me wonder which 500cc racers other than Stirling and Bernie are still alive...

[Garsted]

"(or reasons I may go into later if anyone is interested, I have a suspicion that the days of race meetings on the circuit are numbered, so I want to go while I can)"
  
Paul M[/quote]

OK I'll bite, what have you heard?

Steve

[Ralf Pickel]

Some interesting ideas for the untrained historian, e.g.

 

Race(s): 9 Richmond & Gordon Trophies - For front-engined Grand Prix cars of a type that raced between 1952 and 1960

Of the 30 entries listed 16 seem to be rear-engined.

 

I also had same thought.

It also happened the last two years at the Oldtimer GP at the ´Ring - which made me being slightly less interested in this race.

Also no Scarab this year - and the Tec-Mec is also no longer competing. 

Strange choice of cars for that class in my opinion.

 

BTW Livestream is supposedly free for all, unlike MM. Did send a request to Goodwood and got a positive answer.

[bradbury west]

With the Cegga being entered by David Cook it is likely to be a car prepared by Neil Twyman so should be a top example. I think shots of it in prep appeared on Neil's FB page in recent times.
It will be interesting to see a PA Cresta in the saloon race. I recall a flat sided PB Velox in the Circuit of Ireland Rally back in 64ish. That, of course, had the larger 3.3 litre engine, and I believe a 4 speed box option. From memory the PA ran a 2.6.
I would be very impressed, and utterly delighted, if one year Goodwood invited either or both of the Bill Webster Specials from the US for the big sports car race...... check them out.
Inevitably, I am there Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 11 September 2019 - 08:37.

[dwh43scale]

There from Friday afternoon for the duration; camera in hand. Will be shooting motorsport rather than fashion.

I think I am correct in saying that we will, by the end of the weekend, have been to all 21 Revivals (for at least a day) and thus reached majority.

Will we keep going ? Interesting question ... jury is out at the moment.

[BRG]

I was going to go, but my tailor hasn't managed to finish making my Ruritanian Navy Rear-Admiral's uniform.

[pete53]

With the Cegga being entered by David Cook it is likely to be a car prepared by Neil Twyman so should be a top example. I think shots of it in prep appeared on Neil's FB page in recent times.
It will be interesting to see a PA Cresta in the saloon race. I recall a flat sided PB Velox in the Circuit of Ireland Rally back in 64ish. That, of course, had the larger 3.3 litre engine, and I believe a 4 speed box option. From memory the PA ran a 2.6.
I would be very impressed, and utterly delighted, if one year Goodwood invited either or both of the Bill Webster Specials from the US for the big sports car race...... check them out.
Inevitably, I am there Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Roger Lund

The PA does have some history in saloon car racing albeit brief. John Sutton raced a 2.6 Velox PA in 1962. The car is briefly captured in action in one of the Motor Racing 60s style videos during an appearance at Brands at the Guards Trophy meeting.

[Lee Nicolle]

The PA does have some history in saloon car racing albeit brief. John Sutton raced a 2.6 Velox PA in 1962. The car is briefly captured in action in one of the Motor Racing 60s style videos during an appearance at Brands at the Guards Trophy meeting.

Here in Oz the the PB only came with the 2.6. I thought it was the same in England.  PC had the 3.3 which we never got here.

The PAX was towards the end of the run with the 2.6.

I feel if done properly they would be a very good under 3 litre car as they had [in the UK] disc brakes, 4 speed? and decent base suspension.

A friend still has the PA he bought 50 years ago,, and I have picked up all the differences.

[johnwilliamdavies]

[2F-001]

I see the much-discussed Zerex Special restoration/recreation/replica/whatever is running in the Cooper celebratory parade, described variously in the commentary as "hugely rebuilt" and "essentially the first McLaren". So it's not just the races themselves where authenticity and originality are vulnerable to debate.

[BRG]

I see the much-discussed Zerex Special restoration/recreation/replica/whatever is running in the Cooper celebratory parade, described variously in the commentary as "hugely rebuilt" and "essentially the first McLaren". So it's not just the races themselves where authenticity and originality are vulnerable to debate.

And for those still enraged by the MotorSport article on the (not actually the real thing) Xerex Special, the print version of Autoport has a historic racing supplement this week and it features an article by Paul Lawrence which repeats the 'story' of the rebuilding of this unique car including the tale of its use of the discarded section of the original.  I can't see the article on the website but maybe someone else can track it down.  Looks like this is becoming an abiding bit of fake news.

[D28]

And for those still enraged by the MotorSport article on the (not actually the real thing) Xerex Special, the print version of Autoport has a historic racing supplement this week and it features an article by Paul Lawrence which repeats the 'story' of the rebuilding of this unique car including the tale of its use of the discarded section of the original.  I can't see the article on the website but maybe someone else can track it down.  Looks like this is becoming an abiding bit of fake news.

I am surprised about the car acceptance at Goodwood, and also puzzled that now 3 front-line magazines would have articles about it. Even without the recent publicity, some of the Editors must have known about its history from books, and stories published 55 years ago. In contrast to MotorSport's headline, many people would have heard about this car.

Edited by D28, 13 September 2019 - 15:31.

[opplock]

I am surprised about the car acceptance at Goodwood, and also puzzled that now 3 front-line magazines would have articles about it. 

 

I'm becoming increasingly cynical about the ways of the world but I think it is no coincidence that both the Motorsport and Autosport articles form part of supplements (or in plain English advertising features) about the Goodwood Revival. If this car had not been accepted for Goodwood I am sure that neither article would have been written. 

[D28]

I'm becoming increasingly cynical about the ways of the world but I think it is no coincidence that both the Motorsport and Autosport articles form part of supplements (or in plain English advertising features) about the Goodwood Revival. If this car had not been accepted for Goodwood I am sure that neither article would have been written. 

That makes sense. What doesn't is the Vintage Motorsport highlight from last Nov, and still no correction from the Editor.

[Andrew Stevens]

Always some 'queries' over some of the cars present. The Cegga thing has as information board in the pits saying that it is basically a recreation, so kudos to them for that.  The fake 250GTO that won the Kinrara race (and also the fake GTO 'pace car') did not get explained however, which I find a shame.  What happened to the description of 1962 'type' that used to appear in the car descriptions???

 

Also, how does a Studebaker manage to run what I assume is a 350 Chev engine and get pole position in the Touring Car race?  Since when did a 1959 era Studebaker compete with such an engine?  They were racing at Bathurst much later than that with the normal Studebaker V8 engine and no sign of a 350 Chev motor, which Wikipedia tells me wasn't introduced until 1967??

[Charlieman]

Products and events become stale, eventually requiring reinvention or decline. Goodwood Revival is still a success financially so perhaps the organisers don't notice the loss in quality, especially when it is great on the track. Changing a success is difficult -- ask Ford about the transition from Cortina to Sierra.

 

Today's highlight on the live coverage is the vintage PG Tips advert:

"Dad, do you know the piano is on my foot."

"You hum it, I'll play it."

[Myhinpaa]

Any thoughts on the music they add to the video clips now......?  https://youtu.be/mKwUvNUTMzs

 

Wonder what the "technical infringement" on the Macari/Kristensen 250 SWB in qualifying was?

I thought you could run with whatever modification you wanted in this event.......

[pete53]

I'm somewhat glad I am not attending this year. I can put up with all the razzamataz as long as you get plenty of racing action. However it is now 3pm and we have had one car race to date. Even allowing for the understandable delay because of the damage to the tyre wall that's not much is it?

[PayasYouRace]

I’m guessing I can probably get an answer here rather than in RC. Why do some cars have tape crosses over their headlights?

[2F-001]

That was a long-standing convention, simply to minimize the amount of broken glass that ends up strewn across the track!

 

I don't know if it is still compulsory for cars with glass lenses (but if wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the saloons that race at Goodwood have some alternative plastic-lensed units made for them).

Edited by 2F-001, 14 September 2019 - 14:55.

[Gary C]

Taken by my friend Dylan Michael just 45 minutes ago, my old friend Bob Dance chats up his former employer BCE.

 

 click on the pic for a larger image

[Charlieman]

That was a long-standing convention, simply to minimize the amount of broken glass that ends up strewn across the track!

Does it make any difference? Did the paper tape on household windows during WWII make a difference when a bomb dropped at the end of the street? Consider it as harmless theatre, or doing the right thing.

[2F-001]

I don't know... when I first started going on track in the early nineties, we were told we should do it - and taped across the lens and around onto the sides of the headlamp bowl - but I don't recall the procedure being rigorously policed.

 

(I don't think the comparison with gummed Kraft tape restraining bomb damage is particularly relevant - though my Mum was a young ARP Warden and saw instances where it had kept large shards hanging in the window frames. That would not perhaps have been near to the epicentre of an explosion, but anything that just might have restricted or slowed down flying glass, however little, must have been worth trying.)

Edited by 2F-001, 14 September 2019 - 15:29.

[Charlieman]

I don't think the comparison with gummed Kraft tape restraining bomb damage is particularly relevant...

It's about the theatrical elements. The mitigation effects of paper on a glass window are tiny compared to hiding in the pantry or under the stairs. When a racing saloon or sports car has an accident, even a brief racing caress, debris comes from filler, GRP bodywork, metal shards. I've seen lots of racing accidents but few broken headlights.

[condor]

I'm usually a regular attendee, but not there this year.
Good weather for a change.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Can someone provide a link to the video of Friday's activities?

Many thanks.

[RCH]

My usual complaint I'm afraid. If the saloon car race was supposed to show how such cars raced at Goodwood in the '50's then the Jaguars would have put a lap on everything else. Were Studebaker Silver Hawks or Ford Thunderbirds ever raced? Certainly not in the UK. The commentator mentioned at least twice that the Alfa Guilietta was 1600cc. That would make it a Guilia which didn't appear until the '60's. Austin A35/40s were 948 cc in the '50's, how come these were 1275? 

 

OK I know it's the spectacle not the authenticity that matters but I just wish for once Jaguars were allowed the outrageous mods everything else is apparently allowed. 

[Ray Bell]

Like they were in the old days?

[john aston]

In the words of Conway Twitty - ' It's o-only make believe '.

[mikeC]

...  Austin A35/40s were 948 cc in the '50's, how come these were 1275? 

 

OK I know it's the spectacle not the authenticity that matters but I just wish for once Jaguars were allowed the outrageous mods everything else is apparently allowed. 

It's not just the engine capacity, all the A40s (entered as 1958/59 cars) are post 1962 Mk2s (better handling long wheelbase with full hydraulic brakes); if they are eligible, why not Mk2 Jaguars which qualify as pre-1960 anyway?

[RCH]

Like they were in the old days?

Surely in the old days Jaguar were more intent on making sure they weren't beaten by cars with "illegal" mods (roll cages or disc brakes in Galaxies), doubtful homologation for Chevrolets? Which somehow has a modern day ring to it....

[GazChed]

Given the above posts pointing out all the inconsistencies regarding the cars entered in the St Mary's Trophy it seems strange that the winner and five other cars have been disqualified for what I take to be technical infringements . ' The Lord ( March ) moves in mysterious ways , his wonders to perform ' . This means the ' futuristic ' 1600 cc Alfa Romeo is now the winner .

Edited by GazChed, 15 September 2019 - 08:31.

[RCH]

It's not just the engine capacity, all the A40s (entered as 1958/59 cars) are post 1962 Mk2s (better handling long wheelbase with full hydraulic brakes); if they are eligible, why not Mk2 Jaguars which qualify as pre-1960 anyway?

 

There would have been twin SU conversions available for BMC A series engines but would an A40 in 1959 be allowed to race in the British Saloon Car Championship with anything other than the standard Solex? Club racing would have been different of course but what are we celebrating here? If it really is anything goes then perhaps a Jaguar could borrow the motor from one of the Lister Jaguars or maybe a lightweight E Type unit? Maybe time next year for someone to come up with my 1964 schoolboy idea of a Galaxie/Lotus Cortina eater; a lightened 3.8 S Type with a fuel injected alloy blocked Lightweight E Type unit; Dunlop alloy wheels etc. Come to think of it they could take the engine out to around 4.5 litres. As genuine as Chevvy engined Studebakers or that drag racing Fairlane from a couple of years ago?

[RCH]

Given the above posts pointing out all the inconsistencies regarding the cars entered in the St Mary's Trophy it seems strange that the winner and five other cars have been disqualified for what I take to be technical infringements . ' The Lord ( March ) moves in mysterious ways , his wonders to perform ' . This means the ' futuristic ' 1600 cc Alfa Romeo is now the winner .

 

Curiouser and curiouser, wonder what the technical infringements were? Apart from the Stude they were all "why would you enter that?" cars like the Cresta and Vanguard.

[Charlieman]

Given the above posts pointing out all the inconsistencies regarding the cars entered in the St Mary's Trophy it seems strange that the winner and five other cars have been disqualified for what I take to be technical infringements . ' 

Pre-race scrutineering? I wonder why nobody has ever tried it...

[Ray Bell]

That doesn't always work either...

Remember Bathurst in 1986? The Eggenberger Sierras were noted as having illegal inner guards in the scrutineering bay, protests were lodged but the cars were allowed to run and win.

It was months before the final decision had them canned from the race.

[GazChed]

It is worth remembering that a large proportion of the cars appearing at Goodwood , don't just race at Goodwood but appear regularly throughout the season . This year's St Mary's Trophy draws heavily on the cars contesting the HRDC's Touring Greats series . Apart from the American exotica , cars such as Jag Mk1s , Austin A30-A40s , Morris Minors , MG Magnettes , Standard Vanguards , Sunbeam Rapiers etc have competed up and down the country several times this season already

How different are the regs for the St Mary's Trophy compared to the HRDC I don't know but all of the BMC powered cars that competed in the HRDC races at Thruxton were powered by 1300 engines so perhaps it's an accepted norm in historic racing these days . As for competing in cars which are less than obvious racing cars such as the Standard Vanguard many enthusiasts love a particular type of car and are happy just to be competing rather than being obsessed with a win at all costs attitude .

Finally , for those interested in watching many of the cars competing in the St Mary's Trophy ( probably minus the Americana ) the HRDC will be appearing at the Castle Combe Autumn Classic on the first Saturday . Just £20 for a cracking day out and you can question the cars owners in person about their cars lack of originality !

[GTMRacer]

Careful what you wish for, the variety in the St Marys is it's main attraction, I have been told that if you tell them you are doing something a bit different they are more likely to give you an entry. Otherwise we could end up with the almost "one make" FIA series.

[RCH]

well that's a bit better! 

[mikeC]

It is worth remembering that a large proportion of the cars appearing at Goodwood , don't just race at Goodwood but appear regularly throughout the season . This year's St Mary's Trophy draws heavily on the cars contesting the HRDC's Touring Greats series . Apart from the American exotica , cars such as Jag Mk1s , Austin A30-A40s , Morris Minors , MG Magnettes , Standard Vanguards , Sunbeam Rapiers etc have competed up and down the country several times this season already ...

 

I understand that, and don't have a problem with them racing as HRDC-formula cars - they provide a splendid spectacle . But don't mislead the public by claiming that the race is for pre-1960 cars when it clearly isn't.

[GazChed]

Do the vast majority of the assembled throng really care ? Probably not , they just see plucky A40s taking on and beating the big , bad Jags . Goodwood is all about providing a wonderful spectacle in a wonderful setting . You know and I know that sixty years ago the Jags would have wiped the floor with the others but what spectacle would that provide ? Saloon car racing has almost always ended with four classes each dominated by one make of car .

I think Goodwood's a little bit like Saturday afternoon wrestling - let's not take it too seriously . Having said that it is interesting that they disqualified seven cars from the first race ( and probably from the second unless they replaced their engines ) . But thanks to the highly talented Grant Williams , Jaguar took a well deserved win in the second race .

[ensign14]

Some pics.

 

 

^ Cegga at speed

 

 

^ Duncan Rabagliati, a man for whose existence we should all be grateful, wearing a Comet

 

 

^ from little acorns: the first Cooper

 

 

^ a Cooper Mk VIII that definitely was not painted like that in period - Guernsey did not add the gold cross to its flag until the 1980s

 

 

^ cute little Swebe, built by Ronnie Peterson's dad; might be the only extant example of proper Swedish racing colours

 

 

^ curious Revis, with very cambered rear

 

 

^ a rather fishy Cousy

 

 

^ no, I'm Spartacus!

 

 

^ support for Sir Jackie

 

 

^ even Mondrian has groupies

 

 

 

^ a proper carry on

 

 

^ I think they're going a bit far with these replicas

 

 

^ another rara avis: Sadler Mk 2

 

And now, for a round of ERA Spot the Difference.  It's as easy as A...

 

 

...B...

 

 

...C.

 

[Jack-the-Lad]

The streaming was brilliant. As for the announcing, there were a lot of mistakes made, but as usual the best part was the commentary of Messrs. Nye and Pye, but there wasn't enough of it!

I'm looking forward to being there in person again for Members' Meeting.

[GazChed]

Further to the disqualifications in Race 1 of the St Mary's Trophy sure enough five of the seven cars concerned were also disqualified in Race 2 ( the Ford Prefect and MG YB retired ) . And by the way Race 2 winner Grant Williams was also disqualified leaving Mike Jordan and his A40 to take victory in Race 2 and in the combined classification !

[Jack-the-Lad]

Can someone explain how post-race disqualifications work at Goodwood? Are the first three finishers subject to automatic inspections, must a protest be lodged, is it random? How rigorous is pre-race scrutineering apart from obvious safety inspections? It's disappointing that when one leaves the property or turns off the streaming one isn't certain of the results. Are the reasons for disqualification made public?

[cpbell]

Further to the disqualifications in Race 1 of the St Mary's Trophy sure enough five of the seven cars concerned were also disqualified in Race 2 ( the Ford Prefect and MG YB retired ) . And by the way Race 2 winner Grant Williams was also disqualified leaving Mike Jordan and his A40 to take victory in Race 2 and in the combined classification !

Given that BUY 1 has raced there for many years now, I can't work out how it only failed inspection this year?

[bradbury west]

It's not just the engine capacity, all the A40s (entered as 1958/59 cars) are post 1962 Mk2s (better handling long wheelbase with full hydraulic brakes);

This is a point which I have made before, but which was gainsaid about the later bodies IIRC
However, the re registered UCE 13 is a proper period body , as it was rebodied for the good doctor for the 1960 season, see relevant The Autocar article, following a roll.
I spoke at length with the mechs for the PA Cresta and the amount of work needed to rebuild the body was said to involve a weldathon. Spec was quite relaxed, 3. 2 inch SUs, 4 speed box with a 5 speed knob,.... discs etc. It must have cost a fortune to do andrew the owner has fun.
The MG YB as exquisitely prepared, the paint being to show standards, a joy to behold, and ran an overbored MGB engine. It sat beautifully flat and went well. I loved it.
As others have said, the cars are built to varying sets of historic saloon regs in this country. It is fun , but very real, racing, it is not the real world as you would have it. You either get it or you do not, and fret too much.
The real and important cars are in other events, but how many of them are real, inasmuch as they have not had new tube frames, or have been built from scratch to much more precise and advantageous design parameters?.
The Kinrara saw excellent racing as usual, and we seem to have lost most of the win at all cost hotrods and their drivers from the TT lookalike race, and if someone wants to race a period correct GTO replica when he undoubtedly owns a real one, best of luck to him. Some of the D types in the old Lloyds and Scottish in the seventies were reputedly Brian Wingfield copies, with the originals safely in the garage at home.
I thought it was excellent with a good choice of cars and good racing, apart from the red flag stuff, and I always enjoy looking at how the five hundred cc car designers went about solving the same problem. A one make race for Bentleys was a neat idea too.
I also thought that the dress sense was better overall, although there are still some aberrations in style and relevance, don't get me on wearing uniforms....
I was disappointed, as at the FoS, with the Telegraph being a sponsor, yet failing to have their kiosks there selling the newsapaper, and I did enquire. Poor form, I thought. The Goodwood Actors Guild were out in force and were excellent.
Usual disclaimers, which some struggle to believe....
Roger Lund