96 replies to this topic

[Viryfan]

 

 

"Je peux juste vous dire que cela n'arrivera plus jamais," a déclaré le président. Mais comment pouvez-vous en être sûr? "Car on va changer la règle. On ne peut pas empêcher les pilotes de sortir de leur stand quand ils le souhaitent, mais on va imposer un temps maximum par tour."Plus question donc de rouler au ralenti comme ils l'ont fait à Francorchamps ou à Monza. "Non car le public vient pour voir un show et ce qu'ils ont fait est dangereux pour la sécurité. On changera la règle dès que l'on peut."

 

https://www.dhnet.be...20d5a53cce65986

 

Jean todt consider what happened in Monza as dangerous for the safety, they will change the rules as soon as possible.

[Beri]

What danger? The danger of drivers not qualifying? The danger of the sport becoming a mockery?

It was hilarious. And the drivers and teams were at fault and the only ones harmed in this charade. I can't see any objective reason why a maximum lap time needs to be imposed.

Edited by Beri, 16 September 2019 - 13:22.

[JeePee]

So what happens when you are pretty much on the limit because you had to let a lot of people past. Then in the last corner, you can lift to let a faster car through (penalty) or hold up the faster car (penalty)? Check mate?

 

I believe the Monza-shenanigans were actually pretty quick laps. From the second chicane till the finish, everyone was pretty much on it.

[Marklar]

Yeah, in Monza the outlaps were only ~25-30 % slower than the hot laps. That's relatively fast and yet it happened. Maximum lap times wont prevent this imo.

[redreni]

I don't think the same issue from Monza is going to crop up anywhere else.

 

There have been other examples of dangerous closing speeds, however, whether it's because drivers find it beneficial to do a slow out lap so as not to take life out of the tyres by warming them, or whether it is positioning. A maximum lap time may help. Provided people don't complain about the fastest car not being on pole them moment somebody slips up.

 

It'll be interesting to see what they do in cases of force majeure, too. Say the maximim lap time is 10s off the pace, and a driver intentionally drops 8s prior to the last corner for positioning, intending to pick up the pace in the last few corners and cross the line just inside the delta. What would happen to him if there was a yellow flag in the penultimate corner? Would he be let off if his out lap was marginally too slow and he could show it was because of the yellow flag?

[Myrvold]

So what happens when you are pretty much on the limit because you had to let a lot of people past. Then in the last corner, you can lift to let a faster car through (penalty) or hold up the faster car (penalty)? Check mate?

You leave enough margin. If not, though luck.

Just like any other rule.

[SenorSjon]

Knee, meet jerk.

 

 

 

Wasn't there something said about reducing the ruleload?

[ANF]

Good. Q3 at Spa was really dangerous when some cars were going veeery slowly on the racing line in the final sector.

Maximum lap times should be introduced in F2 and F3 as well. Race control had to stop and abandon F3 qualifying at Monza when half the field was coasting and the other half was going flat out.

[Kalmake]

What danger? The danger of drivers not qualifying? The danger of the sport becoming a mockery?

It was hilarious. And the drivers and teams were at fault and the only ones harmed in this charade. I can't see any objective reason why a maximum lap time needs to be imposed.

Danger is real as there are very slow and unpredictably slow cars while other are pushing. See Spa for latest example.

 

Monza was a farce. While some might be happy with that, F1 is supposed to be respectable sport.

[Lennat]

Probably a good rule overall, but part of me just thinks "Let them go out stupidly late and miss qualy as a result if they want to". 

[Risil]

I hope this doesn't lead to any unforeseen mishaps!

[Clatter]

Danger is real as there are very slow and unpredictably slow cars while other are pushing. See Spa for latest example.

 

Monza was a farce. While some might be happy with that, F1 is supposed to be respectable sport.

 

Don't put F1 on a pedestal it doesn't deserve. Watching a bunch of professionals totally screw things up was hilarious. The only problem is that it really didn't hugely affect the final grid.

[shure]

Hmm, my French is a little rusty but this seems ill-conceived, which is about right for the FIA.

 

The problem at Monza is one we haven't had before and are not likely to have for a long while (at least until Monza next year).  Looks like a knee-jerk reaction which on the face of it wouldn't actually address the Monza issue anywhere as total lap-time wasn't the issue.

 

Poor rule.

[Retrofly]

It doesn't take into account people seeding around the track at full speed and then doing the last 2 corners at a crawl.

 

Should be minimum sector times, in any case its not needed.

[Fastcake]

I don’t think it’s necessary.

If you drive too slowly and end up missing the opportunity to set a qualifying lap, that’s your own stupid fault and you’ve been amply punished already.

On any other normal occasion, as long as you stay off the racing line and yield to cars on a lap this isn’t a problem. There are already rules in place to penalise blocking or dangerous driving.

[shure]

It doesn't take into account people seeding around the track at full speed and then doing the last 2 corners at a crawl.

 

Should be minimum sector times, in any case its not needed.

Yes I was thinking of writing something similar.  Minimum sector times would be a lot better than maximum lap times.  But fully agree yet another rule is not needed

[ElectricBoogie]

Why laps, not mini sectors?

[TomNokoe]

Absolutely not required. Instead we need to make tyres that aren't hyper-sensitive to surface temperature and design cars that are not drag-monsters.

Besides, this is only a problem at a very specific set of circuits. You think they'll be trying to steal a slipstream in Singapore this weekend?

Needless. Knee-jerk is the perfect word. It was a complete one-off.

No doubt the maximum laptime will disadvantage Team X, Y and Z who will now be unable to prepare their tyres properly for a qualifying lap.

 

Again the powers that be simply don't understand the intracies behind a problem. Their solution is to just stick a huge plaster on top. Too much regulation.

Edited by TomNokoe, 16 September 2019 - 14:08.

[BRK]

They should also find a way to get rid of the absurd slowing down before SC restarts.

[sgtkate]

Knee, meet jerk.

 

 

 

Wasn't there something said about reducing the ruleload?

Indeed. There are already rules for dangerous driving which can easily be used if someone going so slowly on an out lap is deemed so, but they are just utter cowards to use it so they invent something that probably won't fix the issue anyway.

 

Either leave it as it is and accept this might happen again, or completely change qualifying to avoid having multiple drivers out at the same time.

[Rodaknee]

Todt has been spending too much time on Twitter, listening to gobby idiots.  Both Spa and Monza problems were caused by the same driver being a nob.  Renault have given Nico Hulkenberg to boot, so it's unlikely to happen again.  Not so long again stupid rules were put in place for qualifying without giving them enough thought, it's time the FIA learned from the previous errors.

[Rediscoveryx]

It’ll have to be sector time based. Like a reversed VSC.

[MKSixer]

It’ll have to be sector time based. Like a reversed VSC.

This but broken into the mini-sectors.  The sectors are too large to adequately police the behavior.

[Garndell]

Add 40-50% to the typical lap time and when that time is left on the clock put a red light at the end of the pit lane.  Still don't make it round, tough luck.

[Kalmake]

This but broken into the mini-sectors.  The sectors are too large to adequately police the behavior.

Mini sectors are too short if you need to let someone by.

[Spillage]

Monza was just a bit of a freak because of the red flag late in Q3. Given that the laps were pretty quick anyway, I'm not sure what would be gained by this change. The FIA is just doing something for the sake of being seen to do something.

[Risil]

Single lap qualifying would solve this problem.

[Atreiu]

Just do it. Trying to go out on track in the best moment is an element of strategy. Seeking a tow is another element. Driving ridiculously slow and blocking several other cars is unsporting. I don't care if this happens at Monza and nowhere else, nip it in the bud.

[MKSixer]

Mini sectors are too short if you need to let someone by.

They are long enough to determine VSC and Yellow light compliance.  Perhaps roll it up to the previous and subsequent mini sector to determine a rolling average to control for this.  At some point there just has to be a way to get it solved.  Monza was a farce as well as very dangerous.

[TheGoldenStoffel]

Funny how they were against knee-jerk changes after one of their curbs sent a car nearly up into space, yet they do feel the need to come up with some knee-jerk regulations over something hilarious like this.  

[NotAPineapple]

A minimum laptime is going to solve so many traffic problems, will be impossible to screw with and will have precisely zero impact on the show. Wtf are everyone so up in arms about this?

 

Racing fans man...

[R Soul]

This will make things tough for the Williams drivers.

[Clatter]

Monza was just a bit of a freak because of the red flag late in Q3. Given that the laps were pretty quick anyway, I'm not sure what would be gained by this change. The FIA is just doing something for the sake of being seen to do something.

 

The red flag had nothing to do with it. There was plenty of time to come out onto an empty track as soon as the track went back to green. They all wanted to wait until the final minutes, and that would have happened red flag or not.

[NotAPineapple]

What danger? The danger of drivers not qualifying? The danger of the sport becoming a mockery?

It was hilarious. And the drivers and teams were at fault and the only ones harmed in this charade. I can't see any objective reason why a maximum lap time needs to be imposed.

 

The danger, quite obviously, is a car on a flying lap coming up on a pack of cars crawling on their outlap. Is it that hard to imagine? The concequences of this happening are what is known in risk management as "catastrophic" (injury or death highly likely).

 

Mitigating this risk can't be left up to the teams being responsible to advise the driver via radio because A: they aren't obliged to, B: they have other agendas and C: if the teams don't communicate to the driver there is zero fallback to warn any approaching drivers.

 

Setting a minimum laptime fixes all this BS.

[MikeTekRacing]

The danger, quite obviously, is a car on a flying lap coming up on a pack of cars crawling on their outlap. Is it that hard to imagine? The concequences of this happening are what is known in risk management as "catastrophic" (injury or death highly likely).

 

Mitigating this risk can't be left up to the teams being responsible to advise the driver via radio because A: they aren't obliged to, B: they have other agendas and C: if the teams don't communicate to the driver there is zero fallback to warn any approaching drivers.

 

Setting a minimum laptime fixes all this BS.

 

i am amazed i've seen 0 crashes so far because of this incredibly dangerous situation that needs mitigating so far

[NotAPineapple]

i am amazed i've seen 0 crashes so far because of this incredibly dangerous situation that needs mitigating so far

 

Well lucky you're not involved in any of the decision making then.

 

You are supposed to react to risks BEFORE they happen - not after. Any dummy can say I told ya so...

[Clatter]

The danger, quite obviously, is a car on a flying lap coming up on a pack of cars crawling on their outlap. Is it that hard to imagine? The concequences of this happening are what is known in risk management as "catastrophic" (injury or death highly likely).

 

Mitigating this risk can't be left up to the teams being responsible to advise the driver via radio because A: they aren't obliged to, B: they have other agendas and C: if the teams don't communicate to the driver there is zero fallback to warn any approaching drivers.

 

Setting a minimum laptime fixes all this BS.

 

Unless the cars on their way to do a lap are at full speed there will always be the chance of a faster car coming upto a pack of slow moving cars. As to A,B and C, the final responsibility lies with the driver. They need to keep an eye in their mirrors at all times. The teams should be communicating who is where whenever possible, but there is always a chance that the comms can fail, or the pit system fails and the teams have no info available.

[NotAPineapple]

I really think some of you are physically incapable of understanding what will happen if you meet a car doing 30km/h on the exit of curva grande while travelling 310 km/h.

 

To put that into perspective, F1 crash tests are made at 54 km/h. Hitting a car with a speed delta of 280 km/h will dissipate roughly 30 times more energy than what the impact structures are designed to handle. Ask Juan Manuel Correa how well the impact structures work at that kind of impact speed.

 

You can't leave mitigation of that to the driver - they can't see **** and when they do it's too late.

Edited by NotAPineapple, 16 September 2019 - 19:37.

[V8 Fireworks]

What danger? The danger of drivers not qualifying? The danger of the sport becoming a mockery?

 

The danger is someone on a hot lap coming up to a blockade of nearly parked cars on the track.

[V8 Fireworks]

i am amazed i've seen 0 crashes so far because of this incredibly dangerous situation that needs mitigating so far

 

https://youtu.be/lWU6tDaG-xg?t=77

[Marklar]

There definitely *is* a danger. Just look on Hamilton's onboard in Monza and you will see that he avoided twice a pretty bad crash narrowly.

However this is not the solution, because it can easily happen even with a time limit. The solution would have been to punish people properly for being idiots, so that they wont do it again.

[Clatter]

There definitely *is* a danger. Just look on Hamilton's onboard in Monza and you will see that he avoided twice a pretty bad crash narrowly.

However this is not the solution, because it can easily happen even with a time limit. The solution would have been to punish people properly for being idiots, so that they wont do it again.

 

I agree. Every one of the drivers knows the dangers, and where the most dangerous parts of the track to be are. If they are not on a hot lap they should be well away from the racing line.

[ArchieTech]

Originally I was in favour of a minimum lap time, but the more I think about it and read the arguments here, I think it will cause more problems than it solves.

 

So I agree the solution is to clamp down - severely - on drivers going unnecessarily slowly on the racing line. e.g. dish out significant penalty points. As soon as the first driver ends up spending their Sunday watching the race from the garage instead of driving in it, that will get everyone's attention.

Edited by ArchieTech, 16 September 2019 - 21:10.

[RacingGreen]

What danger? The danger of drivers not qualifying? The danger of the sport becoming a mockery?

It was hilarious. And the drivers and teams were at fault and the only ones harmed in this charade. I can't see any objective reason why a maximum lap time needs to be imposed.

 

I agree with 95% of that however there is a danger and it's this, imagine a Monza situation again and two or three drivers realise at the same time that they aren't going to get their hot lap in so try and jump to the front of the pack. The subsequent jostling could take everyone out. Of course a minimum lap time doesn't solve this scenario it just speeds up the cars during the collision and so is a nonsense of an idea but that's the type of thinking we expect from the FIA.

[Afterburner]

Any reason they aren't coupling this with moving the timing line for qualifying to before the pit entrance? Because that would cut out 50% of the 'off-pace' laps.

[ANF]

https://youtu.be/lWU6tDaG-xg?t=77

That was Kvyat almost running into the back of a near stationary Russell in Austria back in June. Russell had slowed down because he had several cars going very slowly in front of him.

By the way, it happened in the corner after this one:

[MikeTekRacing]

https://youtu.be/lWU6tDaG-xg?t=77

damn it. Hope nobody got hurt there....

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally I was in favour of a minimum lap time, but the more I think about it and read the arguments here, I think it will cause more problems than it solves.

So I agree the solution is to clamp down - severely - on drivers going unnecessarily slowly on the racing line. e.g. dish out significant penalty points. As soon as the first driver ends up spending their Sunday watching the race from the garage instead of driving in it, that will get everyone's attention.

So how do you define ”unnecessarily slow”? You need to define these things, which is pretty much what they’re attempting to do here.

[Rediscoveryx]

A minimum laptime is going to solve so many traffic problems, will be impossible to screw with and will have precisely zero impact on the show. Wtf are everyone so up in arms about this?

Racing fans man...

I think that there’s a bit of a culture among racing fans that any sort of change what so ever is by default assumed to be a step in the wrong direction.

That’s especially true for anything related to qualifying for some reason.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 16 September 2019 - 23:50.

[Atreiu]

I really think some of you are physically incapable of understanding what will happen if you meet a car doing 30km/h on the exit of curva grande while travelling 310 km/h.

To put that into perspective, F1 crash tests are made at 54 km/h. Hitting a car with a speed delta of 280 km/h will dissipate roughly 30 times more energy than what the impact structures are designed to handle. Ask Juan Manuel Correa how well the impact structures work at that kind of impact speed.

You can't leave mitigation of that to the driver - they can't see **** and when they do it's too late.

Well said.

I am baffled people have become so negligent so soon. Spa was just a while ago...