114 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

I found the first 19 laps a lot better than the 36 that followed after DRS was active again. The battle between Bottas, Vettel, Albon and Petrov Hulkenberg was over within a lap of re-activating it. Other drivers did work their way to an overtake and tried other spots than the usual DRS safe-zone. It was more fun to see drivers trying to overtake without DRS than with. Without DRS, teams will need to change their wing angles for more top speed. So less downforce available in other parts of the track.

 

Some drivers disagreed, but I bet they were just hoping to have it active each lap and were waiting for it.

https://www.motorspo...rivers/4606241/

 

I just hope this 'server crash' was a prelude to DRS-less races in the future.

[Kalmake]

Bottas was like 3-4 seconds a lap faster than the cars he passed without DRS. Does anyone stats how many other passes there were from lap 2 to DRS working?

[Peat]

 

I just hope this 'server crash' was a prelude to DRS-less races in the future.

 

I nominate Baku, Spa or Interlagos. 

[SenorSjon]

I nominate Baku, Spa or Interlagos. 

 

The Hamilton <> Gasly dragrace to the line in Brazil was without DRS. It was way more fun as a finish (even despite the looming penalties) than a Mercedes breezing past.

[Peat]

Is it deactivated on the last lap or did Lewis decide not to make himself any more unpopular than he already was in that moment? 

[Celloman]

Apart from Bottas overtaking multiple seconds slower cars, I reckon there was one "real" overtake from Perez of Magnussen. Then the Hulkenberg train as was mentioned. For me watching a Renault train only brought back memories of the 2010 race where some Petrov kept behind one of the best drivers of this generation for 30 laps, so my vote is: nay.

[Yoshi]

If I understood that right, they have a backup system in place - but they were not confident if it will work 100%    

 

https://www.motorspo...-crash/4605633/

[HP]

DRS is meant to deal with the issue of assisting slightly faster cars to overtake a slower one, because of aero issues.

 

When I look closer at that, it seems to me, intentional or not, it's another tool that keeps the big teams with the faster cars at the front. So it avoids scenarios like the one in Abu Dhabi 2010. At the same time, there are a few drivers that can make passes stick, DRS or not. Just because of that, I'd prefer it to go.

[SenorSjon]

Apart from Bottas overtaking multiple seconds slower cars, I reckon there was one "real" overtake from Perez of Magnussen. Then the Hulkenberg train as was mentioned. For me watching a Renault train only brought back memories of the 2010 race where some Petrov kept behind one of the best drivers of this generation for 30 laps, so my vote is: nay.

 

I rather see it as the drivers behind waiting for the server reboot. With DRS a top 3 team will make it to 6th most of the time without much of a sweat. Without DRS, they have to work for it and think of other places to overtake.

[HP]

Apart from Bottas overtaking multiple seconds slower cars, I reckon there was one "real" overtake from Perez of Magnussen. Then the Hulkenberg train as was mentioned. For me watching a Renault train only brought back memories of the 2010 race where some Petrov kept behind one of the best drivers of this generation for 30 laps, so my vote is: nay.

Besides of what I wrote above, Abu Dhabi isn't a track that provides good racing, With or without DRS.

[Marklar]

Neither, on some tracks it's needed to create opportunities (e.g. Silverstone, Budapest, Barcelona), on some it's overpowered (e.g. Spa, Interlagos)

[mangeliiito]

I rather see it as the drivers behind waiting for the server reboot. With DRS a top 3 team will make it to 6th most of the time without much of a sweat. Without DRS, they have to work for it and think of other places to overtake.

Did you watch 2010?

[noikeee]

Abu Dhabi is what should be disabled, it sucks with and without DRS.

[SenorSjon]

Did you watch 2010?

 

Yes

 

I saw a strategic blunder combined with a car not setup for top speed vs one that had top speed in mind. There was word to change the track, but due to DRS, they didn't. Frozen, rev limited engines were another culprit.

[Bleu]

Is it deactivated on the last lap or did Lewis decide not to make himself any more unpopular than he already was in that moment? 

 

After the final SC the race to the finish was two laps, while DRS is available from third lap onwards.

[JeePee]

My favorite option is missing:

 

DRS can be good, but it's used at all the wrong places, except for Australia, Spain, Silverstone and Hungary.

 

Take for example Spa: Let drivers us it on the home straight, and on the little straight from Pouhon to Fagnes. This way they can close up before La Source, and let a natural slipstream do the rest up through Eau Rouge/Raidillon/Kemmel.

In Italy, use it only between Lesmo 2 and Variante Ascari. 

In Baku, use it only between turn 2 and 3, and turn 6 and 7.

In Canada, use it only on the home stretch, and between turn 7 and 8.

In Hockenheim, use it only on the home straight, and turn 1 and 2.

 

Etc.

 

This way, people can gain their lost time back a little, and prepare for a 'natural' overtake, instead of a drive by.

[cheekybru]

DRS just let's faster cars past.

For those of us that want actual battles it has to go

[Retrofly]

DRS just let's faster cars past.

For those of us that want actual battles it has to go

You wont get any passes without DRS, especially with this areo.

Go watching some pre DRS races, its a disaster.

 

Note even in Abu Dahbi, the Renaults and Mercs were unable to pass each other with DRS, until changing tires became a factor.

 

The racing is artificial, with or without DRS. the dirty air problem isn't racing just as much as DRS isn't.

 

it seems just because they cant see the dirty air and drop of downforce by up tot what 75% it doesn't exist?

 

But people see some active areo on a car and scream "ahhh maahhh pure F1 What the HELL!"

 

DRS isn't the problem the areo is. As soon as the areo is sorted get rid of DRS, pronto.

[BuddyHolly]

DRS sucks, it's just "fake passing".  Get rid of it once and forever. 

[Atreiu]

DRS will never leave, it's an antidote to turbulence and technical packages which eventually fail at creating better racing.

 

The ideal combination is no DRS and reversed grids. Then top teams will feel the true pain of being stuck in traffic.

[MikeTekRacing]

I don't like fake passing, no DRS for me. However if you plan a race having DRS, set up your aero and gearing with that in mind not having it for 20  so minutes is even faker.

[NotAPineapple]

The DRS outage corresponded with the formation of a trulli train, the likes of which have not been seen for years. That's not a battle, that's a bore.

 

Like it or not DRS is required with the current aero regs. 

 

I wonder if the people who think the racing was better without DRS actually watched the race or if they are just doing the fasionable "**** on the FIA I know everything better" dance.

Edited by NotAPineapple, 03 December 2019 - 18:07.

[Celloman]

I rather see it as the drivers behind waiting for the server reboot. With DRS a top 3 team will make it to 6th most of the time without much of a sweat. Without DRS, they have to work for it and think of other places to overtake.

Yeah in some sense I agree, so long as there is at least a chance they can get the overtake done. The Abu Dhabi 2010 lameness with Alonso following a rookie for 30+ laps without even getting a sniff of an overtake is what concerns me. Those were cars that generated less dirty air than current ones. With current cars, I'd say you have a somewhat real chance to overtake without DRS on Bahrain, Baku, Spa and maybe Interlagos. That's about it.

Edited by Celloman, 03 December 2019 - 18:21.

[SenorSjon]

The DRS outage corresponded with the formation of a trulli train, the likes of which have not been seen for years. That's not a battle, that's a bore.

Like it or not DRS is required with the current aero regs.

I wonder if the people who think the racing was better without DRS actually watched the race or if they are just doing the fasionable "**** on the FIA I know everything better" dance.

I watch since end eighties. And I like DRS as much as the halo...

Yeah in some sense I agree, so long as there is at least a chance they can get the overtake done. The Abu Dhabi 2010 lameness with Alonso following a rookie for 30+ laps without even getting a sniff of an overtake is what concerns me. Those were cars that generated less dirty air than current ones. With current cars, I'd say you have a somewhat real chance to overtake without DRS on Bahrain, Baku, Spa and maybe Interlagos. That's about it.

AD is an exception, not the rule. Just like Canada 2011 was used for tire behavior the next decade.

[MikeTekRacing]

The DRS outage corresponded with the formation of a trulli train, the likes of which have not been seen for years. That's not a battle, that's a bore.

 

Like it or not DRS is required with the current aero regs. 

 

I wonder if the people who think the racing was better without DRS actually watched the race or if they are just doing the fasionable "**** on the FIA I know everything better" dance.

spot on. Not a solution I like, but not sure there is any better way to fix things. 

[mgs315]

Rather than being within one second why not use it like an overtake button and give everyone 10 uses or so, regardless of being within 1 second?

If you feel you can catch a faster car through the corners then don’t use the DRS towards the beginning of the battle, allowing you to save up some extra advantages over the car in front?

Or sod it, you can only use DRS once every two laps. Defend and suffer next lap.

Edited by mgs315, 03 December 2019 - 20:33.

[baddog]

Just drop the damned boondoggle. It simply means the faster car wins always, reducing the influence of other driver skills.

[MasterOfCoin]

Just drop the damned boondoggle. It simply means the faster car wins always, reducing the influence of other driver skills.

As it should be......I don't see the fascination with wanting watch 200mph rush hour traffic.....

[Celloman]

Just drop the damned boondoggle. It simply means the faster car wins always, reducing the influence of other driver skills.

Actually no. Without DRS and under the current regulations, Jarno Trulli would be the best ever driver. Always qualifies on top and forms a train behind him, not exactly great in races, but difficult to overtake. It doesn't take skill to defend if overtaking is impossible, all it takes is skill to qualify and the fastest car is always on top of qualifying as well.

[Celloman]

AD is an exception, not the rule. Just like Canada 2011 was used for tire behavior the next decade.

But it's not just AD. I'd say at least Melbourne, Spain, Canada, France, Hungaroring, Sochi and obviously Monaco and Singapore are impossible to overtake on without DRS.

Edited by Celloman, 03 December 2019 - 21:37.

[KWSN - DSM]

Flip-flop how to use DRS.

 

You can use DRS anywhere on track, whenever you want until you are 1 second behind another car, then you can not and have to overtake the old fashioned way. If we have to have artificial speed, why not use to bring cars closer, then have actual racing take over? I will argue the race this weekend, with first 20 laps without DRS, were the best 20 laps we have had at that track, the driver actually having to race and not be given anything by the rules.

 

[PayasYouRace]

Flip-flop how to use DRS.

 

You can use DRS anywhere on track, whenever you want until you are 1 second behind another car, then you can not and have to overtake the old fashioned way. If we have to have artificial speed, why not use to bring cars closer, then have actual racing take over? I will argue the race this weekend, with first 20 laps without DRS, were the best 20 laps we have had at that track, the driver actually having to race and not be given anything by the rules.

 

 

Wouldn't that mean that a car in front of a close battle could just use DRS to pull away from his attacker, meaning nobody would ever be able to stay within 1s of another car unless they were several seconds faster per lap?

 

I don't think you've thought that one through.

 

PS. I've merged your question into the other thread about the same thing.

[Augurk]

I'm torn between two sides. A lot of the intensity from a battle comes from a car being able to defend itself. However, with cars so poorly designed for overtaking a much slower car can keep a much faster car behind for so long that it can completely mess up someone's race. Look for instance at Vettel: had a mishap at the pitstop, then ended up behind Bottas and Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg was keeping them all behind easily until the DRS got reactivated. In these situations easily 20+ seconds can get lost. There will be and have been situations where this keeps us from seeing a battle at the front. 

 

We need better cars for overtaking, then we don't need DRS. Let's hope 2021 delivers.

[SonGoku]

Really really surprised with the anti-DRS sentiment.

I thought I was back in 2010 again without it.

If you think cars following Hulkenberg in a train = a battle I question if you even know what a "battle" in racing is. Hint: it's not following eachother in a train.

It would also mean the end of undercut or overcuts racing we now have because if you are unfortunate enough to be stuck behind a midfield car you are doomed either way.

Edited by SonGoku, 03 December 2019 - 23:11.

[KWSN - DSM]

Wouldn't that mean that a car in front of a close battle could just use DRS to pull away from his attacker, meaning nobody would ever be able to stay within 1s of another car unless they were several seconds faster per lap?

 

I don't think you've thought that one through.

 

PS. I've merged your question into the other thread about the same thing.

 

Yes they could, everyone would be on DRS when more than 1 second behind each other, the car in front would not pull away at high speed, the car in front would be the first in delayed by closing in on a car in front.

 

[Clatter]

Really really surprised with the anti-DRS sentiment.

I thought I was back in 2010 again without it.

If you think cars following Hulkenberg in a train = a battle I question if you even know what a "battle" in racing is. Hint: it's not following eachother in a train.

It would also mean the end of undercut or overcuts racing we now have because if you are unfortunate enough to be stuck behind a midfield car you are doomed either way.

 

You think an easy overtake with DRS is a battle? If we have to have DRS then I'm all for putting a race allowance on it, and it can be used at anytime to attack or defend until the allowance has been used up, then they just have to get on without it.

[MasterOfCoin]

You think an easy overtake with DRS is a battle? If we have to have DRS then I'm all for putting a race allowance on it, and it can be used at anytime to attack or defend until the allowance has been used up, then they just have to get on without it.

Please lets not add another gimmick to a gimmick....

[ViMaMo]

We have seen races without DRS with modern aerodynamics, it is not good.

[Afterburner]

The DRS outage corresponded with the formation of a trulli train, the likes of which have not been seen for years. That's not a battle, that's a bore.

Like it or not DRS is required with the current aero regs.

I wonder if the people who think the racing was better without DRS actually watched the race or if they are just doing the fasionable "**** on the FIA I know everything better" dance.

Well, it was easier to learn than the moonwalk!

[Pimpwerx]

As was already pointed out, the best car in the field, by a country mile, with a more than capable driver in Bottas, had a 'mare of a time overtaking a driver with the worst engine on the grid. DRS is a necessity. Anyone lobbying for it to be removed is crazy. You either didn't watch the late 00's races, or you're a masochist.

I swear, there are people who must simply hate overtaking, because there are some people in both the no DRS and bring back refueling camps. They want to watch a parade interrupted by periodic bathroom breaks. Some people truly just want to watch the world burn.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 04 December 2019 - 04:46.

[baddog]

Actually no. Without DRS and under the current regulations, Jarno Trulli would be the best ever driver. Always qualifies on top and forms a train behind him, not exactly great in races, but difficult to overtake. It doesn't take skill to defend if overtaking is impossible, all it takes is skill to qualify and the fastest car is always on top of qualifying as well.

 

 

Rubbish, they had no DRS and he won jack ****. And yes qualifying ahead and defending hard IS a valid skill.

 

DRS moves are NOT OVERTAKING. They are simply a gifted place change with no change to defend and have no place on a racetrack.

 

If you are buying the story about it 'helping drivers overtake' then I pretty much think you are being gulled by conmen.

 

I would rather watch something vaguely real.

[ARTGP]

Hulkenberg and Bottas weren't racing. The Merc is miles quicker than the Renault.... If dirty air wasn't such a problem, Bottas would be through. What we were watching was just the pronounced effect of dirty air with these regulations meaning that Bottas cannot get close to Nico. 

 

There is a version of high quality racing that doesn't require DRS, and Abu Dhabi was not that...

 

The 2021 regulations should be that. Once they verify that cars can follow, they can shutoff the DRS to encourage old school overtaking.

Edited by ARTGP, 04 December 2019 - 04:57.

[goldenboy]

Until the aero issues are sorted, I prefer DRS to a train.

I think it is too powerful a lot of the time though and should be cut back somewhat.

[PayasYouRace]

Yes they could, everyone would be on DRS when more than 1 second behind each other, the car in front would not pull away at high speed, the car in front would be the first in delayed by closing in on a car in front.

 

 

That makes no sense.

[PayasYouRace]

In my opinion, the best way to fix DRS would be to have it automatically close once the attacking car is alongside the defending car. Use it as a tool to overcome the dirty air, but then once the cars are in battle, shut it off and let that battle play out. It would stop the DRS pass being a "drive by" which is what most usually object to. It would also stop the ridiculous situation where you have one detection point and two zones where the attacking driver makes a pass in the first and then retains DRS in the second and can just pull away.

 

I'm sure it would be possible to implement. Implementation rather than concept has always been my problem with DRS.

[CoolBreeze]

just go back to basic aero and forget this pos. 

[Peat]

Payas is bang on. 

If that is too complicated, just make the zones shorter, terminating half way down the straight. DRS was sold to us as a way of allowing cars 'to get close enough', not these inevitablly dull motorway overtakes. 

[TheFish]

I'd be happy to see most DRS zones shortened, but removing it would be a disaster.

 

I remember a particularly boring Hungaroring race in the 90's and Murray tried to justify it by saying the boring races make the good ones even better. I don't want to have to sit through boring races more than I have to. I'll just stop watching.

[Clatter]

Please lets not add another gimmick to a gimmick....

 

The gimmick would still be there in the form of the DRS, but at least everyone would get the same usage. I prefer the chance to defend over an almost guaranteed drive past.

[HP]

I'd be happy to see most DRS zones shortened, but removing it would be a disaster.

 

I remember a particularly boring Hungaroring race in the 90's and Murray tried to justify it by saying the boring races make the good ones even better. I don't want to have to sit through boring races more than I have to. I'll just stop watching.

The French GP for example this year had DRS, but it was boring too. DRS doesn't guarantee good races at all. DRS and other ideas are treating the symptoms, but are not the real cure. This is for me the most frustrating aspect of all the gimmicks over the years. Always treating symptoms. I wish the FIA would be as good in sorting out racing as they are in sorting out safety related issues.