35 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

In watching the publicity on the new Ford v's Ferrari movie, I noted the role of Shelby American
 
I recall the role of Shelby American in their one and only appearance in Australia ever.
 
This was by entering a competition Cobra 427 and their star driver Ken Miles in the 1965 Australian Tourist Trophy race for sports cars at Lakeside circuit in Queensland. After heats to determine starting positions the main race was over 200kms or 83 laps. It took just over 80 minutes.
 
From re-reading the Racing Car News report there is no special mention of this cars appearance and the meeting seemed just a typical one for the time. The crowd figure was no mentioned so can't have been above normal.
 
In the main race after running third behind Geoghegan and Cusack (Lotus 23's) Miles retired on lap 35 with a broken rear suspension wishbone. So that was it. It was all over.
 
My question is why was the team in Australia for this one off appearance.
 
There does not appear to be any special sponsorship of the car, there was no advertising on it as that was not allowed in Australia at the time, and the 7 litre engine was in excess of the Australian sports car limit at the time of 5 ltres.
 
So WHY?
 
To refresh memory here are a couple of photos of the car.:

http://autopics.com....er-bruce-wells/

http://autopics.com....tanley/#gallery

http://autopics.com....tanley/#gallery

http://autopics.com....tanley/#gallery

[Lee Nicolle]

I feel that a production sports car was allowed its manufacturer engine. Similar to the ZL1 Camaro that Bob Jane used.

There was Romsey Quints test of a 427 Cobra. Reputedly scared Pete Geoghan. 

Same car? 

[Tim Murray]

There was discussion about this many moons ago in the Ken Miles thread - see this and subsequent posts. Here are a couple of the more relevant ones:

Some info on Miles trip to Australia. As far as I know from my Shelby books it was a short promotional trip for the Shelby Cobra and Ken Miles only companion was New Zealand born mechanic Ron Butler. This Cobra was the only Factory 427, as Shelby had moved on to the GT40 and Mustang GT350R. This Cobra’s chassis number is CSX3002 and still exists in America.
During the race at Lakeside on lap 34 the Cobra’s rear wishbone broke and caused a puncture, it was lying in third at the time. After the race Miles and Butler brought the Cobra back to Shelby American. January 1966 it was sold to a private buyer in Texas for $7.200.

And as for the 'Why did he come?'...

Well, Lakeside had been allocated the Australian Tourist Trophy for that year. Like the Australian Grand Prix, it was being rotated among the states so that it was a truly Australian race... this was in the days before the Australian Sports Car Championship series.

It was also in the days when sports cars were worth watching, when people took notice of them...

Anyway, Lakeside was owned and directed (if not actually run...) by a real enthusiast, Sid Sakzewski. Normally I'd ring him and ask to get the lowdown on something like this, but sadly he died about four years ago.

Anyway, I guess it was a matter of Sid wanting something special for his race... something of a crowd draw. Remember that he lost Frank Matich in that feiry crash at the same circuit in June, so that took the fastest car in the country out of the event. Though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Cobra was being organised before that event anyway.

It was a once-only appearance, and to see that huge monster in there among the Lotus 23s and Frank Demuth's diminutive Lola was pretty interesting.

And to feel the ground shake and see the thing accelerate after spinning out of Shell was something else again!

[D-Type]

Looking at the Cobra's single screen, I doubt that it complied with FIA Regulations for Sports Cars (was it still "Appendix C" by 1965?) which I assume would have required a full width screen.

Edited by D-Type, 09 December 2019 - 10:30.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by TerryS
.....From re-reading the Racing Car News report there is no special mention of this cars appearance and the meeting seemed just a typical one for the time. The crowd figure was not mentioned so can't have been above normal.....
 
.....There does not appear to be any special sponsorship of the car, there was no advertising on it as that was not allowed in Australia at the time, and the 7 litre engine was in excess of the Australian sports car limit at the time of 5 ltres.....

Terry, I don't have the CAMS manuals of the era thanks to a combination of other peoples' greed and lack of understanding, but I feel quite sure that the 5-litre limit for Sports Racing cars in Australia came in later. This limitation was a reaction to what began to happen in Can-Am racing as it rapidly grew, and as there were very few (if any?) cars over the 5-litre capacity it came in before they might have been built.

As for the crowd on the day, it was a pretty good crowd. It may not have been as big as the crowd there for the 1964 Australian Touring Car Championship race, but it was a crowd which reflected the rather special nature of that event, and in particular it was a crowd which was drawn to see the Cobra.

Enthusiasts all over Australia were very much aware that the car was coming. It was the subject of a Bits & Pieces item, complete with picture of two of them racing at Riverside, in the preceding months, for instance.

[ellrosso]

Lee. the Cobra tested by Romsey Quints (Bill Tuckey) was featured in a magazine called Sports Car Specials No 9 edited by James Laing-Peach (1968) . It was imported as a road car at a cost of around $10,000 (XT Falcon GT was a whisker under $4,000 back then by comparison). Red in colour, 271hp 289 V8 and very quick by all accounts as it would have weighed around 900 kg I'd imagine. It was for sale at Geoghegan's Sports Car lot in Haberfield at the time - probably good PR exercise for them.

[TerryS]

Enthusiasts all over Australia were very much aware that the car was coming. It was the subject of a Bits & Pieces item, complete with picture of two of them racing at Riverside, in the preceding months, for instance.

Ray, can I observe that perhaps you may be drawing a long bow to suggest "Enthusiasts all over Australia were very much aware that the car was coming" because an item in Racing Car News Bits & Pieces section......

[TerryS]

There was discussion about this many moons ago in the Ken Miles thread - see this and subsequent posts. :

Tim I went through all the Ken Miles related posts on TNF before making my first post.

I have now had the opportunity to go through them again and I still can not find any answer to the why question.

It is disappointing the little response from Aussie posters. Perhaps we are all getting too old!

I hope an answer will eventually turn up.......

[rudi]

From the Rinsay Milles book: "The organisers of the Australian Tourist Trophy had offered Shelby a good purse to send over one of his World Championship-winning cars but none was available, so the long-suffering Ken miles was sent over with the 427, but it retired ignominiously with broken suspension while trailing a couple of Lotus 23s in third place. Early the following year it was one of several 427s that Shelby rented to MGM for use in the Elvis Presley movie Spinout, after which it was sold off."

[Lee Nicolle]

Lee. the Cobra tested by Romsey Quints (Bill Tuckey) was featured in a magazine called Sports Car Specials No 9 edited by James Laing-Peach (1968) . It was imported as a road car at a cost of around $10,000 (XT Falcon GT was a whisker under $4,000 back then by comparison). Red in colour, 271hp 289 V8 and very quick by all accounts as it would have weighed around 900 kg I'd imagine. It was for sale at Geoghegan's Sports Car lot in Haberfield at the time - probably good PR exercise for them.

It was a 427 car, not a 289. Probably for sale at Geoghegans.

The article [tongue in cheek] said that Pete was scared of it.

I do have the mag here,, somewhere. It was a mag with 'the best of Romsey Quints' including a street sweeper, a scraper and the Camel Rover among others.

[ellrosso]

It was a 289 Lee, I had the article in front of me when I wrote the post......

[Ray Bell]

Terry, it has been answered...

Sid Sakzewski wanted a special crowd-draw and he paid Shelby to send the car out here. I'm sure it cost a lot of money to do it, but Sid would have found it relatively easy to find backing from his regular circuit sponsors.

That first Bits & Pieces item was on the front page of that feature, page 5 of the magazine's September issue. It stated that the QMSC commenced negotiations with Shelby 'several months ago' and that the car was about to leave the US by sea while Miles and a mechanic would fly out later.

Looking at Australian Motor Sports & Automobiles, there's an item in their 'Late News' section on Page 31 which is headed, "The Cobra Team is Coming". The wording of that is more like the straight reproduction of a press release from the QMSC and says much the same as the RCN item, and now I notice that neither mention the engine size.

So the evidence I present to you is this:

A press release went out from the QMSC in about August, 1965 telling that Miles and a Cobra were coming.

It's likely that more magazines picked up on it, Autosportsman, for instance. And newspaper columns such as those of Mike Kable, David McKay, Clyde Hodgins and so on would have likely mentioned it too.

The news was, therefore, abroad. In time we were to learn that it was a 7-litre car but I don't know when that might have been.

But I can tell you for a certainty, when I set off to drive to Lakeside the Friday before the event I knew I was going to see a 7-litre car.

[Team Result]

The Ford vs Ferrari movie has certainly revived memories of Ken Miles & Shelby American's only race in Australia. Last week, on the 'Old Motor Racing Photographs - Australia' Facebook page, Richard Croston posted a few pix of Ken in action at Lakeside. Amongst replies to this, someone posted a photo of an old invitation and ticket to attend a 'Motor Racing Spectacular' on Thursday, 11th November 1965. This was a film and live talk show jointly promoted by QMSC and Shell, hosted by Bill Gates (racer and local celebrity DJ) and featuring the latest racing movies from USA and England as well as drivers; Ken Miles, Spencer Martin, Leo Geoghegan, Brian Foley, Glyn Scott and John French. The venue was Festival Hall, Brisbane (The Beatles had performed there two years earlier!). 500 reserved seat tickets were available at selected Shell outlets. So, from this activity it seems to me, that Shell had tipped in quite a few dollars towards bringing Ken and the Cobra over for this one-off race. As to why Shelby American decided to come, please re-read my last sentence.   

[Ray Bell]

Thank you, Ross...

I felt sure that Shell had a part in it but I had no evidence.

It's interesting that even as the ATT was concluding that day late in November the QMSC were already busily promoting the upcoming Australian Grand Prix they were to run the following February.

And Shell had a vested interest in that, too, as the winner was a Shell driver. Who shook up the champagne and squirted it everywhere after the race.

Sid was a great man and did great things for the sport in Queensland. His VIP room was a great place from which to watch the races and in which to converse with him and other luminaries.

[Ray Bell]

Did I ever post these pics I took at that meeting?


First to retire from the race - Frank Gardner.


Mentioned by Ross, Bill Gates and his Elan.


Glyn Scott, he drove the Lotus 15 that day.


John Harvey having his first open-wheeler drive on bitumen.


Bob Jane's lightweight E-type out of Shell corner in practice.


Miles gets a bit of opposite lock going out of the Karussel.


While it was going the Cobra was car of the meeting, here in the kink.

Please forgive the light-affected pics, obviously I had a problem loading the film on the Saturday morning.



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 12 December 2019 - 12:50.

[TerryS]

From the Rinsay Milles book: "The organisers of the Australian Tourist Trophy had offered Shelby a good purse to send over one of his World Championship-winning cars but none was available, so the long-suffering Ken miles was sent over with the 427, but it retired ignominiously with broken suspension while trailing a couple of Lotus 23s in third place. Early the following year it was one of several 427s that Shelby rented to MGM for use in the Elvis Presley movie Spinout, after which it was sold off."

Thanks Rudi, finally an answer.

What book is that?

[E1pix]

The fender flares are unmistakable -- 427 Cobra.

[Ray Bell]

Terry, let's look at your questions here:

1. From re-reading the Racing Car News report there is no special mention of this cars appearance and the meeting seemed just a typical one for the time. The crowd figure was no mentioned so can't have been above normal.

Maybe it's not framed as a question but it is a question. I answered that in Post 5, my first post on this thread:

"As for the crowd on the day, it was a pretty good crowd. It may not have been as big as the crowd there for the 1964 Australian Touring Car Championship race, but it was a crowd which reflected the rather special nature of that event, and in particular it was a crowd which was drawn to see the Cobra."

So it then depends on what you consider to be 'normal'. Lakeside generally had five meetings each year, the International 99 in February would normally be a big one and thus not 'normal'. Then there was the Governor's Trophy for the Gold Star race. Was that normal? And a few other meetings, with a major event at one of them. The ATCC in 1964 and the ATT in 1965 as these title races rotated among the states.

I think I answered your question No. 1.

2. My question is why was the team in Australia for this one off appearance.

My answer to this was given in Post No 3 by Tim, who quoted a post I made over sixteen years ago:

"Anyway, I guess it was a matter of Sid wanting something special for his race... something of a crowd draw. Remember that he lost Frank Matich in that feiry crash at the same circuit in June, so that took the fastest car in the country out of the event. Though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Cobra was being organised before that event anyway."

Surely you understood that money was involved? It was how it was done in those days and was for many years to come. Offer a star driver or car enough money to turn out for an event and they will come and you can advertise their presence to draw a good crowd to the meeting.

And now you are ungrateful enough to suggest that my answer wasn't good enough!

The only thing I hadn't included was that backing came from Shell, and that was only because I wasn't sure of that point.

3. There does not appear to be any special sponsorship of the car, there was no advertising on it as that was not allowed in Australia at the time, and the 7 litre engine was in excess of the Australian sports car limit at the time of 5 ltres.

So WHY?

I did explain that I couldn't give chapter and verse on this, but that those limits (7 litres for Touring Cars and 5 litres for Sports Cars) didn't come in until a year or two after this race, maybe even a little longer.

4. Ray, can I observe that perhaps you may be drawing a long bow to suggest "Enthusiasts all over Australia were very much aware that the car was coming" because an item in Racing Car News Bits & Pieces section......

So I took that shred of information and found you some further proof that the item in Bits & Pieces was just a part of the promotion that the QMSC put out, and to find that I didn't have much to go on but with diligent and time-consuming digging I found it for you.

I think using expressions like, "All over Australia" and "Enthusiasts were very much aware" was entirely appropriate.

The problem is, Terry, that you try so hard to reject anything I say, that you doubt my recollections and display this attitude towards me. And I do tend to take it personally because of the way things have gone in the past.

But you might have noticed from time to time that I go to some great lengths to answer your questions anyway.

And your final assertion:

5. It is disappointing the little response from Aussie posters. Perhaps we are all getting too old!

Perhaps most of them have gone to Faecesbook and have left me to hold the fort on this. Perhaps, however, there are some who aren't keen to stick their necks out and trust their recollections.


Just to conclusively respond to all your points:

Shelby was given a bag of gold by Sid Sakzewski, the QMSC and Shell to ship Miles and a 7-litre Cobra to Lakeside to brighten up the meeting. It seems that discussions were under way before Matich's crash which took the fastest car in Australia out of the race.

The appropriate response was seen in the spectator areas as a crowd at least as big as was seen for the Gold Star meeting turned out, possibly as large as for the International 99 too. But probably not as large as was seen for the ATCC race the previous year.

I will do further research on the capacity limits.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by E1pix
The fender flares are unmistakable -- 427 Cobra.

On the race car, E1, yes...

But Lee is talking about some other car which was here some years later.

Now, if Tim or Speedy can find Atlasf1 'postid86476' for us there might be some more to learn.

[E1pix]

Oh, Whoops, account hack for sure. :-)

[group7]

TerryS, the book rudi quotes from is "Carroll Shelby The Authorized Biography" by Rinsey Mills, my copy (soft cover) published 2014, I believe the book has been rereleased again, amongst others, with all the interest generated by the "Ford vs Ferrari" film.

Returning to the topic of this thread, I have in my computer file an article from "Australian Motor Sports" January 1966 penned by Joe Weinthal, titled "Motoring With Miles", one photo included, in which he does five laps as a passenger, the best lap being 64 seconds. I cannot post here, but if some one would like to post it here, PM me and I can send the article.

Michael in Canada

[TerryS]

Terry, let's look at your questions here:

1. From re-reading the Racing Car News report there is no special mention of this cars appearance and the meeting seemed just a typical one for the time. The crowd figure was no mentioned so can't have been above normal.

Maybe it's not framed as a question but it is a question. I answered that in Post 5, my first post on this thread:

"As for the crowd on the day, it was a pretty good crowd. It may not have been as big as the crowd there for the 1964 Australian Touring Car Championship race, but it was a crowd which reflected the rather special nature of that event, and in particular it was a crowd which was drawn to see the Cobra."

So it then depends on what you consider to be 'normal'. Lakeside generally had five meetings each year, the International 99 in February would normally be a big one and thus not 'normal'. Then there was the Governor's Trophy for the Gold Star race. Was that normal? And a few other meetings, with a major event at one of them. The ATCC in 1964 and the ATT in 1965 as these title races rotated among the states.

I think I answered your question No. 1.

2. My question is why was the team in Australia for this one off appearance.

My answer to this was given in Post No 3 by Tim, who quoted a post I made over sixteen years ago:

"Anyway, I guess it was a matter of Sid wanting something special for his race... something of a crowd draw. Remember that he lost Frank Matich in that feiry crash at the same circuit in June, so that took the fastest car in the country out of the event. Though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Cobra was being organised before that event anyway."

Surely you understood that money was involved? It was how it was done in those days and was for many years to come. Offer a star driver or car enough money to turn out for an event and they will come and you can advertise their presence to draw a good crowd to the meeting.

And now you are ungrateful enough to suggest that my answer wasn't good enough!

The only thing I hadn't included was that backing came from Shell, and that was only because I wasn't sure of that point.

3. There does not appear to be any special sponsorship of the car, there was no advertising on it as that was not allowed in Australia at the time, and the 7 litre engine was in excess of the Australian sports car limit at the time of 5 ltres.

So WHY?

I did explain that I couldn't give chapter and verse on this, but that those limits (7 litres for Touring Cars and 5 litres for Sports Cars) didn't come in until a year or two after this race, maybe even a little longer.

4. Ray, can I observe that perhaps you may be drawing a long bow to suggest "Enthusiasts all over Australia were very much aware that the car was coming" because an item in Racing Car News Bits & Pieces section......

So I took that shred of information and found you some further proof that the item in Bits & Pieces was just a part of the promotion that the QMSC put out, and to find that I didn't have much to go on but with diligent and time-consuming digging I found it for you.

I think using expressions like, "All over Australia" and "Enthusiasts were very much aware" was entirely appropriate.

The problem is, Terry, that you try so hard to reject anything I say, that you doubt my recollections and display this attitude towards me. And I do tend to take it personally because of the way things have gone in the past.

But you might have noticed from time to time that I go to some great lengths to answer your questions anyway.

And your final assertion:

5. It is disappointing the little response from Aussie posters. Perhaps we are all getting too old!

Perhaps most of them have gone to Faecesbook and have left me to hold the fort on this. Perhaps, however, there are some who aren't keen to stick their necks out and trust their recollections.


Just to conclusively respond to all your points:

Shelby was given a bag of gold by Sid Sakzewski, the QMSC and Shell to ship Miles and a 7-litre Cobra to Lakeside to brighten up the meeting. It seems that discussions were under way before Matich's crash which took the fastest car in Australia out of the race.

The appropriate response was seen in the spectator areas as a crowd at least as big as was seen for the Gold Star meeting turned out, possibly as large as for the International 99 too. But probably not as large as was seen for the ATCC race the previous year.

I will do further research on the capacity limits.

Well Ray, you win. Congratulations

[TerryS]

Lee as to the Sports Car World road test of a Cobra 427, there was one in the April/May 1986 edition. There may have been others.

It was owned by Sydney businessman and ex Group A touring car racer David Ratcliff.

He had owned it since 1979, and was the fourth owner. It was chassis #CSX 3150, and was said to be one of four in Australia.

It was tested by Peter McKay including at Oran Park circuit.

I like his last paragraph:

“I like to run the eyes over the Cobra. It looks angry and Defiant. Full of menace. And when the roadway is smooth and ruler straight and goes forever, I like to feel the amazing accelerative surge when the big block unleashes all its neddies. The rest I can easily leave”

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by group7
.....I have in my computer file an article from "Australian Motor Sports" January 1966 penned by Joe Weinthal, titled "Motoring With Miles", one photo included, in which he does five laps as a passenger, the best lap being 64 seconds. I cannot post here, but if some one would like to post it here, PM me and I can send the article.....

I don't have 1966 issues here with me but can get to them late next week, so unless you can e.mail me that I will do that and post it then.

[Ray Bell]

My apologies to Michael...

He sent me this over 24 hours ago and I still haven't put it up.



John Weinthal, of course, was a quiet and bespectacled gentleman who went to England to live in the late sixties or early seventies and sent back a monthly column for Racing Car News called Words from Weinthal.

His readiness to jump into the Cobra - without helmet etc - while Miles was doing the best lap times he could as he continued to learn the circuit is truly amazing.

Like all the words from Weinthal, quite a priceless piece.

[MarkBisset]

Magic! Thanks Ray,

Mr Weinthal is mad of course! What an experience
I do recall his RCN columns fondly

[ellrosso]

Yes thanks Ray. Incredible really........

[Ray Bell]

Don't blame me, it came from Michael...

And he's in Canada.

[Ian G]

Thanks for posting Ray but difficult to read,blurs when only modest magnification is used,no chance of a higher scan rate?..TIA

Interesting article that i remember from my youth.

[Ray Bell]

That was actually my plan, Ian, but I wasn't going to make any fuss about it...

I should be able to do that when I can access my copy, which will be tomorrow, then replace it on that post maybe tomorrow night.

On my way to visit Britto on Saturday afternoon. He, of course, built the car which should have won that day.

[Librules]

There is a six page article with pics on the Cobra and this event in the latest issue of Australian Muscle Cars.  It has a couple of Brock Commodore Directors on the cover.

[Ray Bell]

My apologies to all...

I could not find the 1966 AMS binder in my storage shed today so it must be at home hiding from me. I will get back there Monday or Tuesday.

[Paul Newby]

My first post to this thread and my first post for a while...

 

Most of the questions posed by Terry S should be answered by the AMC feature on the subject.

 

There was no direct sponsorship from Shell or Ford. Shell may well have underwritten the meeting programme and the Thursday night social event but that was it. There was no appearance fee, just freight costs to get the Cobra there and back and expenses for Ken Miles and mechanic Ron Butler. I asked QMSC Secretary David Harding whether any documentation was retained like copies of letters or Committee Minutes, but alas there isn't.

 

Harding told me that Miles and Butler were put up at the Travelodge at Kangaroo Point, like the Tasman drivers were. However Richard Croston's Lakeside, the early years, says that the duo were accommodated at the Coronation Motel near the Brisbane River. So I didn't mention that detail in the story.

 

Why did Shelby agree to send Miles and the Cobra 427 Competition to Australia? I can't answer that, but I'll make the following observations:

 

1. The 427 Cobra was an obsolete race car, so there was no risk to an existing race program. Miles had graduated to the Ford GT program by then and Bob Grossman was Shelby American's works driver in the 289 Cobra. (He raced at Nassau in December 65.)

 

2. With a full order book for the Cobra 427 and Mustang GT350 plus being bankrolled by Ford for the GT program, Shelby didn't need an appearance fee nor the $$$ to offload the Cobra 427 Competition to an Aussie hotshot.

 

Finally a big thank you to Ray for putting me in touch with David Harding and Ken Peters of the QMSC. Unfortunately I was not able to get hold of RCN reporter Des White. Also thanks to Stephen (Cooper 997) for copies of period magazine race reports and the Lakeside programme. I also wrote a couple of snippets for the Musclemania section of AMC including that AMS piece by John Weinthal. I'm not sure if it made the current issue or has been held over until the next issue as I'm still waiting to receive my copy. Blame Australia Post.....

 

 

[raceannouncer2003]

As mentioned, the car is apparently in America.  Here is a photo from the 2012 Pebble Beach tour:

 

https://www.flickr.c...ecan/8610072184

 

Vince H.

[Ray Bell]

Des White, we have just learned, is doing the rounds of medical establishments...

I sincerely hope I can get to talk to him within the next couple of weeks.

[Ray Bell]

Des had actually died before I posted that... sad, but true...
 
I found that I wasn't looking hard enough for my '66 and '67 volumes of Australian Motor Sports & Automobiles (Yes, that's the full title through its latter years), and so I've been able to get a better resolution of that page with John Weinthal:



Happy reading, IanG.