168 replies to this topic

[Atreiu]

It is odd, but makes (a bit) more sense if you go with the tyres idea. Massa was used to the Bridgestones which were very different to the Michelins. If Kimi was a one-trick pony (from a tyres perspective) this would explain it to a certain extent

Makes sense to me.

[derstatic]

Very interesting discussion. I listened to Beyond The Grid with Pedro de la Rosa over the weekend and he said what has already been discussed here. Kimi could make use of the very special Michelin front tyre like no one else could manage. Not Pedro, Not even Montoya who is rated very highly for pure pace by many. He also said Kimi has a small operating window (much like Button) and will be extremely fast when the car is right, but not really able to wring the neck of any car like a Hamilton or Alonso can do. That episode with de la Rosa is one of the most interesting F1-podcasts I've ever listened to. Highly recommend it. 

 

As for top Brazilian between Massa and Barrichello. It's a really tough call. I rate them very similarly in some kind of "A-" category together with the likes of Webber and Coulthard. Compared to "A" drivers like Kimi, Button etc. And "A+" drivers like Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton. So better than most "B" class journeyman drivers, but not greats.

[Anuity]

The thing with Kimi was not only that he lost speed due to tyres. He was still extremely fast (just not as consistently fast) in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009.

It’s also his head scratching mistakes and crashes. Like Hungary 2006 and most of 2008.

He had the speed to win 2008 championship, in fact I think he would have won it if not for his own mistakes.

[Yamamoto]

The thing with Kimi was not only that he lost speed due to tyres. He was still extremely fast (just not as consistently fast) in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009.

It’s also his head scratching mistakes and crashes. Like Hungary 2006 and most of 2008.

He had the speed to win 2008 championship, in fact I think he would have won it if not for his own mistakes.

 

Obviously winning a title requires things to come together, and in 2008 things clearly weren't happening for him. After the crash in Monaco, he had three consecutive races where he was comfortably ahead of Massa in Canada, France and Britain. He threatened to win all of them, should have taken at least 26 (old money) points but for poor luck and strategy errors. He ended up taking 13 points. So he wasn't maximising the opportunities for big points. Then he had three poor performances, tied into qualifying struggles in Germany, Hungary and Valencia - although in Hungary he actually gained ground. By this point momentum was all with Massa in the team. Obviously he lost points in Spa. It was another error, but hard to be harsh as everyone was making mistakes in those conditions. Then he was poor in Italy. Fast in Singapore and could well have had a Ferrari one-two without Piquet's unfortunate mistake. Would have had a decent chance of winning Fuji but the Mclarens forgot to go round the first corner. Gave a position to Massa in China. You can easily tot up an extra 30-40 points if he'd been maximising everything that year. Obviously all title contenders dropped a lot of points that season, save maybe Kubica. Ultimately his qualifying record was going to be tough to overcome in a title fight. But the perception was probably compounded by him being hit by misfortune in some of his better performing races. Plus both Ferraris were solidly awful in the rain. In hindsight, the writing was probably on the wall after round one - mechanical failure in qualifying, a strong start and a chance to salvage some very good points, but a trip through the gravel after a safety car and it all unravelled.

 

In 2009 I think both Ferrari drivers performed pretty well with that less than brilliant car. 

[Astandahl]

He didn’t really struggle, they were pretty much neck and neck from what I remember. Kimi slightly ahead in 2007, again early in 2008 then Kimi completely lost it after his two early season wins and Massa took the initiative. Was a funny one. I didn’t expect Massa to be so close, for sure, especially not after that first season where Felipe had ‘home advantage’ from 2006. But the trend went towards him from there on.

Yeah "struggle" wasn't the right word. I just expected him to beat Massa easily.

 

Also Ferrari should have kept MSC for 2 more years... He would have won in 2007 and 2008 easily.

Edited by Astandahl, 24 March 2020 - 18:05.

[PlatenGlass]

Yeah "struggle" wasn't the right word. I just expected him to beat Massa easily.

Yes - after Schumacher retired at the end of 2006, I think Alonso and Raikkonen were considered to be head and shoulders above the rest of the field. And it was then baffling in 2007 that both of these drivers then had to battle for supremacy with their team-mates - Hamilton a rookie as well! But when it turned out what Hamilton was capable of generally, it didn't do Alonso's reputation as much damage as Raikkonen's. People's opinion of Massa did obviously rise considerably especially after nearly winning the title in 2008, but he was never considered absolutely top drawer, and Raikkonen's reputation has never recovered to where it was pre-Ferrari, despite winning the 2007 title.

[Anuity]

Regarding Alonso in 2007. I actually think it was one of his best seasons, and some classic races from him. Its just that Hamilton was that good out of the box.

[Vesuvius]

Kimi’s whole career is weird. A guy of his speed and potential should have mopped the floor with Massa, Alonso and Vettel without anyone being surprised. The only explanation I can find is that his style was perfectly suited for Michelin and sprint racing and, the more F1 moved away, the more he struggled to adapt. And I wonder to which extent was this is in cause/effect relation to his less than obsessed approach to F1.

I used to think he was the best, now I only think he had the most potential of those guys from the early 2000s.

 

 

Bridgestone tyrechief said back in the 2008, that Kimi´s struggles were all because of the tyres. Those Bridgestone tyres were designed that way that they made the car understeery, which Kimi hated but during the races when tyres started to wear etc. the tendency of tyres switched to more oversteery and this can be seen on races, were Kimi suddenly did a blindly fast laps out of nowhere.

 

Michelin tyres are said to be the best racing tyres there ever were by many (Kimi, Button, Alonso and Kovalainen for example). With those tyres you could really push with your natural driving style and tyre did behave like you wanted. Kimi has always used his natural driving style, as he thinks it´s the fastest way and this is perhaps his  problem, as he doesn´t want to adapt, and he expects equipment to work for him.

 

Former McLaren F1-engineer Marc Priestley said a couple weeks ago on his youtube channel and on his book, that Kimi is the fastest driver he has ever worked with (link to the videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vywjtd49mM&list=LLtam3dFaa1ZXIi2jUkaWDZA&index=11&t=452s from 05:11 onwards ) but he wasn´t as complete as Lewis was/is.

 

as of 2008, Kimi had many mistakes by his own, but he was still there on the fight to win championship. He lost wins at Montreal and Magny cours, not fault of his own, and he lost Spa win due to rain/mistake on rain, also he lost a winning chance at silverstone because Ferrari fxxked up with tyrechoice, these could have changed the outcome of the titlefight a lot. Kimi also had lots of problems with alcohol back in that day, not during races though but right after the weekends and even between racing weekends.

[Vesuvius]

Regarding Alonso in 2007. I actually think it was one of his best seasons, and some classic races from him. Its just that Hamilton was that good out of the box.

 

 

it was one of the best years in f1 ever, but Alonso did do some bad races and was slow in the latter half of the season. Alonso like Kimi, struggeled with Bridgestone tyres, unlike Hamilton who had gotten used to those on GP2. All in all, I think top3 all drove on very high level that season.

[Sterzo]

At last I’ve come up with my own top ten of the noughties. It’s taken me ages - it feels like a hundred years.

1. Nazzaro
2. Boillot
3. Lautenschlager
4. De Knyff
5. Charron
6. Hémery
7. Wagner
8. Bruce Brown
9. Jenatzy
10. Szisz

 

[Yamamoto]

 

At last I’ve come up with my own top ten of the noughties. It’s taken me ages - it feels like a hundred years.

1. Nazzaro
2. Boillot
3. Lautenschlager
4. De Knyff
5. Charron
6. Hémery
7. Wagner
8. Bruce Brown
9. Jenatzy
10. Szisz

 

 

Met a rather tragic end when he fooled some friends out hunting into thinking he was a wild animal, with too much success.

[Atreiu]

The thing with Kimi was not only that he lost speed due to tyres. He was still extremely fast (just not as consistently fast) in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009.

It’s also his head scratching mistakes and crashes. Like Hungary 2006 and most of 2008.

He had the speed to win 2008 championship, in fact I think he would have won it if not for his own mistakes.

I don’t think Ferrari was ever the best team for him. But he didn’t mind as long as they kept paying him and, at least, they knew he wouldn’t bring more politics to their table.

[Ragingjamaican]

Obviously winning a title requires things to come together, and in 2008 things clearly weren't happening for him. After the crash in Monaco, he had three consecutive races where he was comfortably ahead of Massa in Canada, France and Britain. He threatened to win all of them, should have taken at least 26 (old money) points but for poor luck and strategy errors. He ended up taking 13 points. So he wasn't maximising the opportunities for big points. Then he had three poor performances, tied into qualifying struggles in Germany, Hungary and Valencia - although in Hungary he actually gained ground. By this point momentum was all with Massa in the team. Obviously he lost points in Spa. It was another error, but hard to be harsh as everyone was making mistakes in those conditions. Then he was poor in Italy. Fast in Singapore and could well have had a Ferrari one-two without Piquet's unfortunate mistake. Would have had a decent chance of winning Fuji but the Mclarens forgot to go round the first corner. Gave a position to Massa in China. You can easily tot up an extra 30-40 points if he'd been maximising everything that year. Obviously all title contenders dropped a lot of points that season, save maybe Kubica. Ultimately his qualifying record was going to be tough to overcome in a title fight. But the perception was probably compounded by him being hit by misfortune in some of his better performing races. Plus both Ferraris were solidly awful in the rain. In hindsight, the writing was probably on the wall after round one - mechanical failure in qualifying, a strong start and a chance to salvage some very good points, but a trip through the gravel after a safety car and it all unravelled.

 

You're quite right. Raikkonen's 2008 season was downhill from Monaco onwards. He was actually solid but from then onwards it was some amount of bad luck and a couple of mistakes (which they all had that season).

 

Monaco - Drive through penalty after to failing to have the tyres attached on the car by the team before the three-minute warning before the race, dropping him from 2nd down the order and then the crash with Sutil

Canada - Hit by Hamilton in the pitlane when fighting for the win

France - Reliability dropping him from 1st to 2nd giving Massa the win

Silverstone - Was faster than Hamilton and gaining on him until the team decided to keep him and Massa on the Intermediates while the rest of the grid bar a couple went on to Full Wets, resulting in the famous Ferrari spins

Valencia - Hose issue that Massa had in the pits and lost a podium

Spa - Had a slow puncture at the latter stages but Ferrari kept him out resulting in big gains from Hamilton 

Singapore - Race was ruined as he was queued behind Massa when the fuel hose got detached, tried making up for it and crashed

Fuji - After the first corner shenanigans by both McLaren's lost places and had to cover ground

China - Moving over for Massa

 

In what was a strange season for the top guys, he was the one that was worse off with things outside his control. I think his season is frowned upon due to Massa having the better luck and Kimi making a couple of errors, but overall he was faster of the two and would likely have had more wins.

[PlayboyRacer]

Raikkonen never hit the same heights at Ferrari that he did at McLaren. Clearly his huge talent and speed was totally unlocked in a Newey car. Despite winning the WDC in 2007 he just didn't look quite the same.

I remember the time well. Literally everyone expected him to blow Massas doors off at Ferrari. He never got close to that, though honestly Felipe was real underrated at the time.

Raikkonen at his very best was on a level with Alonso. But to unlock that he needed so much to be exactly as he wanted. Slightly outside that window - his performance wasn't as explosive. Nothing to be ashamed of, most drivers (even most champions) are the same. It's the GOATS that can drive the wheels off anything almost forever.

[Joseki]

Regarding Alonso in 2007. I actually think it was one of his best seasons, and some classic races from him. Its just that Hamilton was that good out of the box.

Some of Alonso's 2007 races were proper **** for his usual level. Probably the season where he had the most bad races.

 

Compare 2006 with 2007 and he almost looked like another driver.

Edited by Joseki, 09 April 2020 - 08:40.

[Anuity]

Some of Alonso's 2007 races were proper **** for his usual level. Probably the season where he had the most bad races.

 

Compare 2006 with 2007 and he almost looked like another driver.

 

I am not sure. He did not have Hamilton as a teammate in 2006. And also obviously had full support from the team in 2006.

 

I think his wins in 2007 in Monaco, Nurburgring and Monza are one of his finest to be honest.

 

He strangely looked off pace in a couple of races like Bahrein and Canada and obviously crashed in Fuji. But all in all I think it was a good season.

[Yamamoto]

Raikkonen never hit the same heights at Ferrari that he did at McLaren. Clearly his huge talent and speed was totally unlocked in a Newey car. Despite winning the WDC in 2007 he just didn't look quite the same.

I remember the time well. Literally everyone expected him to blow Massas doors off at Ferrari. He never got close to that, though honestly Felipe was real underrated at the time.

Raikkonen at his very best was on a level with Alonso. But to unlock that he needed so much to be exactly as he wanted. Slightly outside that window - his performance wasn't as explosive. Nothing to be ashamed of, most drivers (even most champions) are the same. It's the GOATS that can drive the wheels off anything almost forever.

 

I actually thought Massa would win the title prior to the 2007 season, as I had been impressed by his pace at the end of the previous year. I was young and foolish at the time, so didn't look much deeper than his three poles and two wins in the last six races of '06. Although I do recall Bernie saying something similar (I said it first).

[Atreiu]

Some of Alonso's 2007 races were proper **** for his usual level. Probably the season where he had the most bad races.

Compare 2006 with 2007 and he almost looked like another driver.

Maybe, just maybe, he also suffered through the BS tyres as Raikkonen. To a much lesse degree though.

Even in 2010 he had odd weekends which would not have seemed possible in 2006. Turkey, Abu Dhabi, Spa qualifying (RB ruined his race), Valencia...

I also think he Briattore created and maintained the perfect environment for him.

[Beri]

Raikkonen never hit the same heights at Ferrari that he did at McLaren. Clearly his huge talent and speed was totally unlocked in a Newey car. Despite winning the WDC in 2007 he just didn't look quite the same.

I remember the time well. Literally everyone expected him to blow Massas doors off at Ferrari. He never got close to that, though honestly Felipe was real underrated at the time.

Raikkonen at his very best was on a level with Alonso. But to unlock that he needed so much to be exactly as he wanted. Slightly outside that window - his performance wasn't as explosive. Nothing to be ashamed of, most drivers (even most champions) are the same. It's the GOATS that can drive the wheels off anything almost forever.

 

Well, it could also very well be that Raikkonen was used racing on Michelins. When the tyre war was at its peak, tyres were simply blistering fast and you didnt have to care for them so much if your car was good. Tyres were at peak perfomance within a lap and Raikkonen, as well as Monty, could be incredibly fast straight from the go. The McLarens of Raikkonen could handle te tyres way better than the Williamses (Williamsi?) of Montoya ever did. During the race this proved to be a game changer which led to Raikkonen fighting for the championship and Montoya being an outsider. After the tyre war, it only went downhill. We need two or three tyre manufacturers again.