184 replies to this topic

[Branislav]

Someone wanted to open this topic.

 

So who to you is the best team principal (past or present) ?

 

To me that would be Flavio Briatore. Two world championship with two different teams and two different drivers.

[FortiFord]

Todt

 

Reasons:

- He was able to shield his team from the usual politics and media pressure at Ferrari. 

- He was able to hire the right people and build for the future. 

- He took over a team which was very dis functional and was able to get them working together (moving the chassis design base to Maranello and building a new wind tunnel there was very important). 

- He ended Ferrari's title drought and oversaw one of the most successful periods in F1 for a single team. 

[JeePee]

Not even a top 10?

[Branislav]

Not even a top 10?

Go ahead

[Ivanhoe]

Can’t choose

 

Edited by Ivanhoe, 12 December 2019 - 14:08.

[Beri]

Not even a top 10?

You beat me to the punch.

Anywho, from the current grid, with the limited available resources, Vasseur is doing a cracking job.

[CSF]

1. Alfred Neubauer

2. Jean Todt

3. Ron Dennis

4. Colin Chapman before 1975. After is just a mess and I suspect he'd be a hate figure had he lived. So yeah. 

5. Enzo Ferrari

6. Luca Montezemelo

7. Frank Williams 

8. Toto Wolff/Ross Brown

9. Urm. Christian Horner?

10. Urrm. Giancarlo Minardi?

 

 

100. Tony Fernandes. 

[jcbc3]

Past:

Todt. Did it in multiple disciplines and knew when his time was up.

 

Present:

Steiner. For entertainment value

Toto. Results speak for themselves. (Had you asked in 2013 I would have said Horner)

[Claudius]

From the current grid I would have to give it to Toto. 

He is one of the reasons Merc are dominating. Even though he gets on my nerves for downplaying his teams domination, he is a very smooth operator.

[shure]

I'll say Ron for his consistency and the way he kept McLaren at the top for so long.  He's the Alex Ferguson of F1 and the team nosedived once he lost control.  That's alas tempered by the fact that his controlling nature lost him many a relationship, particularly towards the end, but I wouldn't want that to detract from his stellar achievements.   Todt also did a superb job turning Ferrari around.  Briatore looks just a little too mafiosi to get my vote, although his results were excellent (2008 aside, of course!).

 

Of the current crop I'm inclined to say Horner.   I think the resources at Toto's disposal (both financial and Mercedes-engineering wise) have flattened him a bit and I think a fair amount of the credit for Mercedes' current situation have their roots in Ross Brawn.

[goldenboy]

Frank Williams.

[PayasYouRace]

 

8. Toto Wolff/Ross Brown

 

 

Oh no, not him again.

[PlayboyRacer]

Frank Williams.

Second this.

[balage06]

Zoran Stefanovic

[messy]

Frank Williams, no question. 

[jjcale]

1. Alfred Neubauer

2. Jean Todt

3. Ron Dennis

4. Colin Chapman before 1975. After is just a mess and I suspect he'd be a hate figure had he lived. So yeah. 

5. Enzo Ferrari

6. Luca Montezemelo

7. Frank Williams 

8. Toto Wolff/Ross Brown

9. Urm. Christian Horner?

10. Urrm. Giancarlo Minardi?

 

 

100. Tony Fernandes. 

 

Why is Fernandes the worst? 

[KWSN - DSM]

Past:

Todt. Did it in multiple disciplines and knew when his time was up.

 

Present:

Steiner. For entertainment value

Toto. Results speak for themselves. (Had you asked in 2013 I would have said Horner)

 

I conquer.

 

[CSF]

Oh no, not him again.

 

Autosport forum legend comes out of hiding. 

[Cliff]

Bernie

[pacificquay]

Past:

 

Dennis

 

Present:

 

Wolff

 

Future:

 

Brown

[LucaP]

Giancarlo Minardi

God knows what he'd be able to do with superior funding

Edited by Luca Pacchiarini, 12 December 2019 - 15:49.

[BuddyHolly]

Ken Tyrrell

[Jovanotti]

Giancarlo Minardi

God knows what he'd be able to do with superior funding

Peter Sauber is probably similar. What he achieved in a rather motorsport-unfriendly country as Switzerland is remarkable.

Edited by Jovanotti, 12 December 2019 - 16:00.

[Mohican]

Enzo Ferrari, Colin Chapman and Ron Dennis stand head and shoulders above everyone else; for owning, building and leading their organisations, elaborating new technologies, developing business and operational models - and at the same time taking the risks inherent in funding their companies.

Bruce McLaren, Frank Williams, Jackie Stewart, Guy Ligier, Tony Vandervell and Ken Tyrrell all deserve mentions for different reasons.

Jean Todt and Alfred Neubauer were very good, but still employees. Briatore was a cheat.

Of the current team principals, Toto Wolff and Frédéric Vasseur are both doing excellent jobs - if under very different circumstances.

[JordanIreland]

Frank Williams, no question.

I’m a Williams fan, but no way is Frank a top Team Principle.

Yes, his comeback after his personal accident deserves a lot of credit. Yes Williams was a top team for a number of years in the 80s and 90s (a lot of credit goes to Honda, Renault and Newey).

But where has Williams been since 1997? Apart from a few peaks, they have been middle to back of the field.

Driver management? Appalling.

Team management? Totally lost. The team is doing a very good job in running the team as a business, but as an F1 team, it’s way off.

Todt, Wolff seem to operate at a very high level with excellent team management (granted they have the full support of Fiat and Mercedes respectively).

If someone came into F1 with a BIG budget and wanted the best, even at his peak, Frank would not be on the list.

[goldenboy]

I’m a Williams fan, but no way is Frank a top Team Principle.

Yes, his comeback after his personal accident deserves a lot of credit. Yes Williams was a top team for a number of years in the 80s and 90s (a lot of credit goes to Honda, Renault and Newey).

But where has Williams been since 1997? Apart from a few peaks, they have been middle to back of the field.

Driver management? Appalling.

Team management? Totally lost. The team is doing a very good job in running the team as a business, but as an F1 team, it’s way off.

Todt, Wolff seem to operate at a very high level with excellent team management (granted they have the full support of Fiat and Mercedes respectively).

If someone came into F1 with a BIG budget and wanted the best, even at his peak, Frank would not be on the list.

Look at it from a whole career, not just where it ended up. Not sure anyone could stay on top forever.

For me, the way he built that team up was extraordinary

[JordanIreland]

Look at it from a whole career, not just where it ended up. Not sure anyone could stay on top forever.

For me, the way he built that team up was extraordinary

Very good point and if we just look at raw stats, Williams is up there: https://www.statsf1....ion/nombre.aspx

Frank clearly put his heart and soul into his team, but genuinely lacked a lot of basic management skills. The fact that Frank is still the team principle says a lot about the teams inability to change with the times.

[goldenboy]

Very good point and if we just look at raw stats, Williams is up there: https://www.statsf1....ion/nombre.aspx

Frank clearly put his heart and soul into his team, but genuinely lacked a lot of basic management skills. The fact that Frank is still the team principle says a lot about the teams inability to change with the times.

Well yes, Williams is a shell of it's former self. But I consider what he did building that team from the ground up to be the powerhouse that it was at it's height a greater feat than what Toto or Horner or even Todt and Ron ever did.

And they definitely weren't finished in 1997 either.

[JordanIreland]

Well yes, Williams is a shell of it's former self. But I consider what he did building that team from the ground up to be the powerhouse that it was at it's height a greater feat than what Toto or Horner or even Todt and Ron ever did.

And they definitely weren't finished in 1997 either.

There is no question what he achieved is outstanding, if I read the constructors championships correctly, his team won more in comparison to all the other teams while the team principal was alive. Only Ferrari beats the Williams total thanks to crazy money from fiat and PM.

But even at its peak the team was not well run as it could have been e.g. Honda moved from Williams to McLaren in 88, and we know what happened there. Dropping big drivers (to save money? Or make a point?), pit stop strategies were one of the worst. I remember Newey giving some bland response to the importance of pit stop strategies while Ross (Benetton) had is down to an exact science.

I personally couldn’t achieve 0.01% of what Frank achieved, but that doesn’t mean he was the best team principle. And the current state of the team I.e. the last 22 years !!! Is 100% at franks feet.

[garoidb]

Bernard Charles Ecclestone saw a much bigger picture. World championships that went down to the wire, iconic cars, turbocharged BMW qualifying engines, great liveries ... 

[CharlesWinstone]

Todt with bonus points for doing it in a an Italian snakepit.
Wolff is doing a good job as well.

[BillyWhizz]

Eddie Jordan of course!

 

A hustler who punched far above his weight. A canny deal maker and a bit of a rascal too, but always good value and a guy who made this Irishman proud anyway.

 

How he pulled off some of his sponsorship coups I have no idea, particularly seeing how he can almost be depended to put his foot in his gob when in front of the cameras though.

 

Anyway, who cares. Not him anyway! He had fun, and did alright too.

[chrisj]

Easily Jean Todt. Winner in World Rally, LeMans, Dakar and Formula 1. Expert at managing people and politics.

[TomNokoe]

Currently? Horner, by a country mile.

Historically, gotta give it to Ron.

[Nobody]

from those I watched and can Judge - Dennis, Todt, Wolff, Horner

 

and Williams I almost forgot

Edited by Nobody, 13 December 2019 - 06:10.

[FNG]

Ron Dennis

[MikeTekRacing]

Todt - he actually got Ferrari to win again. Something obviously not easy. He also got the team to work so good that we can actually remember individual screwups. Nowadays we struggle to make a top of the worst decisions, there's just so many of them.

[JordanIreland]

Currently? Horner, by a country mile.

Historically, gotta give it to Ron.

Yes the team had great success from 2010-2013, but he has had one of the easiest jobs in F1 having the full support of RedBull. He was clever enough to be buddy buddy with Bernie to help negotiate a good piece of the F1 income (I suspect Dietrich made this happen) and getting Newey (lead my helmut) into the team was key.

It’s Helmut who clearly manages the drivers and he does a great job of finding the best young talent.

Horners handling of MW/SV as drivers was very poor/sloppy. His management of the Renault partnership was extremely poor. Had it been dealt with in a more professional manner, the team would have been in a much stronger position.

I don’t see Horner as a team lead in the sense that Ron, Frank and Eddie were/are. Horner is an employee and gets his salary at the end of the month.

Edited by JordanIreland, 13 December 2019 - 01:33.

[ElectricBoogie]

Dennis started it all with a proverbial broom and built an empire that did justice to Bruce, and then some.

 

Wolff and Horner bring so much wit and surprisingly effective neo corporatism.

Todt to me seems like a politician and lobbyist more than racer, but he sure got things done.

Williams is too much a racer for today, not enough corporate finesse. But he's had a great long run.

I'm sentimentally going with Dennis.

[goldenboy]

There's a lot of different angles you can take with this question that is bringing so many different answers. Modern management versus team building from scratch 30-40 years ago etc. Both very different things.

[chrisj]

Of the currernt group, it's like drivers, who really knows. They're all basically corporate employees now. Wolff gets a lot of credit, but Brawn built that team. Wolff's main strength seems to be downplaying Mercedes' massive advantage over the last 6 years. Horner's success depends on Newey. Maybe Vasseur, Szafnauer and Seidl are good, or would seem to be geniuses with a great driver, star designer and buckets of money.

[shure]

Yes the team had great success from 2010-2013, but he has had one of the easiest jobs in F1 having the full support of RedBull. He was clever enough to be buddy buddy with Bernie to help negotiate a good piece of the F1 income (I suspect Dietrich made this happen) and getting Newey (lead my helmut) into the team was key.

It’s Helmut who clearly manages the drivers and he does a great job of finding the best young talent.

Horners handling of MW/SV as drivers was very poor/sloppy. His management of the Renault partnership was extremely poor. Had it been dealt with in a more professional manner, the team would have been in a much stronger position.

I don’t see Horner as a team lead in the sense that Ron, Frank and Eddie were/are. Horner is an employee and gets his salary at the end of the month.

I don't see how it's easier having the support of Red Bull that it is the support of Ferrari or Mercedes?  He helped a "drinks maker" beat the established teams and that has to be worth something.

 

I'm also not so sure he did such a bad job with MW and SV.  I also hear the same accusations leveled at Ron for his handling of Alonso and Hamilton but at the end of the day the drivers are adults and if they choose to act like pr*cks then there's not a lot a TP can do about it.  Horner did help create an environment where one driver won four straight titles and his team the same number of constructors, while Red Bull has shown frankly remarkable performance in the hybrid era by being the only non-manufacturer to win races and having consistently provided one of the best cars on the grid hampered only by poor PUs which frankly they couldn't do much about.  Red Bull have been a power house and he has to take some of the credit for that

[Nemo1965]

I would vote Ross Brawn, slightly ahead of Ron Dennis. I do not particularly like them, but both have had multiple moments in their careers when they JUST chose the right path, the right driver, the right team, the right sharktank...

 

As I posted before: the longer I follow Frank William's career, the less admirable I find him. In my view, he lucked into Patrick Head and he lucked into Saudi-millions.

[Unicast]

Toto Wolf stands out, his success with Mercedes is a testimony of his skill as a manager and leader.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

IMO best team principals are the best chief designers and technical directors like Gordon Murray, John Barnard, Adrian Newey, Rory Byrne, Patrick Head, Colin Chapman, Mauro Forghieri and ...

 All being said, team principal role is important anyway.

[taran]

Enzo Ferrari, Colin Chapman and Ron Dennis stand head and shoulders above everyone else; for owning, building and leading their organisations, elaborating new technologies, developing business and operational models - and at the same time taking the risks inherent in funding their companies.

Bruce McLaren, Frank Williams, Jackie Stewart, Guy Ligier, Tony Vandervell and Ken Tyrrell all deserve mentions for different reasons.

Jean Todt and Alfred Neubauer were very good, but still employees. Briatore was a cheat.

Of the current team principals, Toto Wolff and Frédéric Vasseur are both doing excellent jobs - if under very different circumstances.

 

 

It seems to me that Flavio Briatore gets a bad rap here.

 

When the Benetton family installed him as their team principal, the Benetton team (ex-Toleman) was a team struggling to be competitive at the sharp end, despite a healthy budget and works engines. Flavio made a detailed assessment about what was necessary to win in F1 which has worked out well for him. Under his leadership, Benetton became regular race winners and eventually champions. He then repeated that feat when the team was acquired by Renault.

 

He did all the things top managers do; he created a positive environment, hired top designers (John Barnard), had some of the most notable figures in F1 working for him (Byrne, Walkinshaw, Symonds and Brawn) as well as some remarkable drivers.

 

Some people here claim Todt was a super team principal. Well, his F1 laurels are solely based on hiring the people Briatore had managed at Benetton. Without them, Todt would have been just another failed Ferrari team boss.

 

To me, the dislike of Briatore is mostly due to him not being a petrol head with grease under his fingers and for having a unromantic view of F1 and what was needed for success. That seems to rub people the wrong way.

 

Obviously, Briatore was involved in some shady stuff but once again, he is pilloried while other, more sainted and dare I say it, British…, team principals are given a pass for their shenanigans.

Sure, Benetton cheated in 1994 and Renault cheated in 2008 under his watch. Well, Williams cheated. Tyrrell cheated. McLaren and Lotus cheated. Yet nobody consistently calls their team principals cheaters.

[TomNokoe]

Yes the team had great success from 2010-2013, but he has had one of the easiest jobs in F1 having the full support of RedBull. He was clever enough to be buddy buddy with Bernie to help negotiate a good piece of the F1 income (I suspect Dietrich made this happen) and getting Newey (lead my helmut) into the team was key.

It’s Helmut who clearly manages the drivers and he does a great job of finding the best young talent.

Horners handling of MW/SV as drivers was very poor/sloppy. His management of the Renault partnership was extremely poor. Had it been dealt with in a more professional manner, the team would have been in a much stronger position.

I don’t see Horner as a team lead in the sense that Ron, Frank and Eddie were/are. Horner is an employee and gets his salary at the end of the month.

 

MW was the biggest pain in the neck. Slow, crashed a lot, and had a big mouth to go with it! Australian Kimi (but way worse - love u kimster).

This thread to me is a bit of fun, I like CH, he knows his stuff. Slightly more old-school than the corporate heads in other teams.

Edited by TomNokoe, 13 December 2019 - 12:42.

[goldenboy]

MW was the biggest pain in the neck. Slow, crashed a lot, and had a big mouth to go with it! Australian Kimi (but way worse - love u kimster).

This thread to me is a bit of fun, I like CH, he knows his stuff. Slightly more old-school than the corporate heads in other teams.

Well, Dietrich and red bull kept signing him, almost won the title in 2010 and has 9 race wins. Not too shabby.

[cpbell]

Easily Jean Todt. Winner in World Rally, LeMans, Dakar and Formula 1. Expert at managing people and politics.

I don't care for him as a person, but I agree.  If we're ignoring anything other than F1 (therefore also forgetting pre-1948), then Dennis, Williams, di Montezemolo  must be near his level, and, more recently, CH and Wolff must be contenders.  However, there are many others that could be mentioned if we open-up our definition to include owners, Patrons etc., such as Cooper (Charles and John), Vandervell and Tyrrell.  Extending pre-war adds-in Ettore Bugatti, Louis Delage and Neubauer/Max Sailer.

[aportinga]

Frank Williams.

 

The same guys who sacked Mansellfor Prost? The same guy who sacked Prost for Senna? All in 3 seasons?

 

Naw