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Post war Talbot-Lago cars


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#1 Jahn1234567890

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 13:43

I'm researching the post war and pre WC Grand Prix era. I'm having trouble to distinguish the Talbot-Lago cars as I can't find many good sources. I would like to name all chassis types as well as the chassis numbers.

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1949/ ORC is fantastic as they have all the info for 1949. If only I can find a source like this for 1945-1948.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...yby.html#TALBOT 8W Forix has a list of all chassis but no chassis numbers. https://www.ultimate...talbot&method=0 This website gives quite a bit of information about the T26C, T150C, T26SS and the T26 Monoplace Décalée.

 

http://www.silhouet....7/1947.html#acf silhouet lists all the grand prix races of that era but only give chassis stats and sometimes chassis number. For example at the 1947 French GP they say Louis Chiron drove a T26 but no chassis number is given. So which type of T26 was used? The Motorsport Magazine database says Chiron drove a T26C but this can't be right as the T26C was first used at the 1948 Monaco Grand Prix.

 

Any help or input would be greatly appreciated!

 

 



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#2 Jhdrussell

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 14:18

By far the best source for Talbot Lago is Pierre Abeillon’s masterly work ‘Talbot Lago de Course’ published back in 1992.

The information on ORC, and probably the other internet sources which you mention, comes from Pierre’s book.



#3 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 19:11

http://8w.forix.com/...yby.html#TALBOT 8W Forix has a list of all chassis but no chassis numbers. https://www.ultimate...talbot&method=0 This website gives quite a bit of information about the T26C, T150C, T26SS and the T26 Monoplace Décalée.

 

http://www.silhouet....7/1947.html#acf silhouet lists all the grand prix races of that era but only give chassis stats and sometimes chassis number. For example at the 1947 French GP they say Louis Chiron drove a T26 but no chassis number is given. So which type of T26 was used? The Motorsport Magazine database says Chiron drove a T26C but this can't be right as the T26C was first used at the 1948 Monaco Grand Prix.

 

Any help or input would be greatly appreciated!

 

Actually it was the type you missed in your list, the Monoplace Centrale. Chassis number 83341.

 

If you send me a PM, We can work out a copy of the Talbot entries in my database. GP 45-61 has 671 entries, almost all of them with chassis numbers. And there are a few more.

 

KInd Regards,

 

      Henk Vasmel



#4 D-Type

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 17:52

Henk,

How many years has it taken and how many sources have you had to consult to produce your database?
 

Jahn1234567890
The reason that the websites you are slagging off are incomplete is because the compilers have not yet managed to find the information.  You could help them by passing on what you have found out and telling them where you found it rather than throwing out such criticism.



#5 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 21:33

Henk,

How many years has it taken and how many sources have you had to consult to produce your database?
 

 

 

Dear Duncan,

 

I started collecting data in the early seventies, beginning by WC-F1 only and then gradually expanding till where it is now, Major Formulae (1, 2, 5000, FL and the like) and Sportscars, starting with Le Mans and adding more and more. Period is 1894 until now, but 21st century is a bit too easy to get complete, so my heart is more in the past. Emphasis on 30s to 70s.

How many sources, oops, I really forgot. LOTS. and still adding almost everyday. You create a sense for what is reliable and what is not. Also for copied data there sometimes is a giveaway.

I really appreciate the work of one-make/type specialists  who have a small ground to cover and then do it very thoroughly. However, it is a utopian idea to get it complete one day.

 

For Talbot, the number 1 source is of course Pierre Abeillon's standard work, but it is definitely not the only one. Where I find contradictions, I tend to follow PA, unless there is a very good reason not to. Alternative data gets added to my database as well, in the hope that one day it will make more sense when still more info is found.

 

Almost reaching pension age now, I will have to decide whether I'm going to cut off some dead wood, or go really berserk and add even more.

 

Kind Regards,

 

      Henk Vasmel


Edited by Henk Vasmel, 26 December 2019 - 21:37.


#6 Jahn1234567890

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 11:14

 

Jahn1234567890
The reason that the websites you are slagging off are incomplete is because the compilers have not yet managed to find the information.  You could help them by passing on what you have found out and telling them where you found it rather than throwing out such criticism.

 

Dear Duncan,

 

I think you misunderstood my comment. I definitely was not slagging off the mentioned websites. The sites I mentioned have bean of great use for me! I posted this topic as I was not able to find all the stats I was looking for. In retrospect I should have phrased it differently. I second your second statement! I regularly contact webmasters whenever I find irregularities, mistakes or incomplete stats.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Kevin



#7 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 11:40

It is always possible that more information has been found in the 18 years since Pierre Abeillon’s book was published but I would look for very strong evidence for anything that corrected it. 

I'm researching the post war and pre WC Grand Prix era. I'm having trouble to distinguish the Talbot-Lago cars as I can't find many good sources. I would like to name all chassis types as well as the chassis numbers.

 

https://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1949/ ORC is fantastic as they have all the info for 1949. If only I can find a source like this for 1945-1948.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...yby.html#TALBOT 8W Forix has a list of all chassis but no chassis numbers. https://www.ultimate...talbot&method=0 This website gives quite a bit of information about the T26C, T150C, T26SS and the T26 Monoplace Décalée.

 

http://www.silhouet....7/1947.html#acf silhouet lists all the grand prix races of that era but only give chassis stats and sometimes chassis number. For example at the 1947 French GP they say Louis Chiron drove a T26 but no chassis number is given. So which type of T26 was used? The Motorsport Magazine database says Chiron drove a T26C but this can't be right as the T26C was first used at the 1948 Monaco Grand Prix.

 

Any help or input would be greatly appreciated!

Pierre Abeillon says that Rosier gave the T26C its debut at the Grand Prix des Nations, two weeks before Monaco. 

 

Actually it was the type you missed in your list, the Monoplace Centrale. Chassis number 83341.

 

If you send me a PM, We can work out a copy of the Talbot entries in my database. GP 45-61 has 671 entries, almost all of them with chassis numbers. And there are a few more.

 

KInd Regards,

 

      Henk Vasmel

May I ask the source of that chassis number for the MC?  Abeillon doesn’t quote one. 



#8 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 17:28

 

May I ask the source of that chassis number for the MC?  Abeillon doesn’t quote one. 

Indeed, it does not come from Abeillon. I found it later, but I cannot remember where now. I will do a quick search, to see if I can find it, but it is not possible to make a major mission of it.



#9 Jahn1234567890

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 21:21

Pierre Abeillon says that Rosier gave the T26C its debut at the Grand Prix des Nations, two weeks before Monaco. 

Thanks for the info!

 

http://www.forix.com/8w/40s-nice.html 8W forix lists the “Monoplace Centrale” as project 83341.



#10 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 22:02

A project number rather than a chassis number. The Forix article is an extract from Alessandro Silvas’s book Back on Track, which, as we’ve said before, is essential for anybody interested in this period of racing. 



#11 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 22:12

Thanks for the info!

 

http://www.forix.com/8w/40s-nice.html 8W forix lists the “Monoplace Centrale” as project 83341.

This is getting  interesting. I love these puzzles.

 

I think I have used a different source, but that can be connected to this one again. The chassis number for the MC is now mentioned as 83341 (post-war) in my database, but for the '39 car it is only "possibly 83341". This source proves that we are indeed talking about the same car.

Now this makes me curious where the number comes from. Here it is described as a project. Also the number is not in line with the other numbers used for racing cars. Could it mean that it was a chassis from a different series (touring car), used for creating the MC? 

I have once seen it described as 90132, in sequence with the MD's. 

Is there anybody who knows more about production Talbot chassis numbers who can give some info where 83341 would fit in?



#12 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 22:30

A project number rather than a chassis number. The Forix article is an extract from Alessandro Silvas’s book Back on Track, which, as we’ve said before, is essential for anybody interested in this period of racing. 

My source is not Alessandro Silva's book. I know it is essential and I bought it this summer, so it's waiting for me to have some time and get data from it.

The number must have been published somewhere else before. At the moment I do not know whether it was described as a chassis number or not.

Oh, how I wish that I had made notes of my sources. There are too many to remember, split up in three categories: Magazines, books and internet. The last one being really volatile.

This also shows that more sources than is comfortable are really second-hand. Of course here I can blame myself as well, because almost everything in my database is equally second-hand


Edited by Henk Vasmel, 29 December 2019 - 22:32.


#13 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 23:13

I have found a source, which, directly or indirectly, could have been my information. It is a website called http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/ , last updated in 2008. If  you go there and look for Louis Chiron, you will find 83341 mentioned many times. So it is not a recent invention.

edit: Incorrect. further investigation shows  that the website is kept up to date, only the introduction page says: last updated May 17, 2008.

Still there is the possibility of it being a project number and not a chassis number. Also possible is that 83341 is the chassis number of an existing car, used for the construction of a racing car. But for that we need info from Talbot specialists to see if that is possible or not.

Abeillon doesn't mention this number but describes the engine as 45006, which is in the same series as the MD'S 90130/90131 Which have 45003 & 45004.


Edited by Henk Vasmel, 30 December 2019 - 12:02.


#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 11:35

Looking only at Louis Chiron’s post-war record, there are significant differences between that website and Pierre Abeillon’s book. 



#15 DCapps

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 15:40

 

Oh, how I wish that I had made notes of my sources. There are too many to remember, split up in three categories: Magazines, books and internet. The last one being really volatile.

This also shows that more sources than is comfortable are really second-hand. Of course here I can blame myself as well, because almost everything in my database is equally second-hand

Henk (and others), take this as you may, but this is exactly the reason scholars/historians constantly document their work and develop citations for their sources. Notes/citations, whether it is in the form of footnotes or endnotes using the Chicago system or incorporated into the text and with a biography as in the MLA system or simply note cards or something in [brackets] for digital work are your friends. Perhaps THE major failure in what often passes for being auto racing/motor sport "history" is this aversion to properly citing sources; otherwise, it is simply telling stories and spinning tales or lapsing into nostalgia. It does not require a graduate school education to do something this simple and easy. It also suggests just how difficult the historian's task can be at times to separate the "wheat from the chaff" when it comes to sources. As Roger suggests, "Looking only at Louis Chiron’s post-war record, there are significant differences between that website (http://www.ultimateracinghistory.com/) and Pierre Abeillon’s book." Always keep in mind what Gordon Wood wisely suggests: "As Yogi Berra might put it, it is difficult to write history, especially about the past."



#16 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 11:35

Just found my source. Positively.I must be getting old for not thinking of it before.

Number 83341 is mentioned 4 times (1939-1948) in A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Volume 4, 1937-1949.

Looking for dates, I also found that it was not 18 years since Abeillon's book was published, but more like 27 (1992). AROGPAVR-4 (The black book) is from 1993, so I was right that this info was added later.

Hope this helps



#17 Roger Clark

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 12:17

the second edition of the Black Book Vol 4 contains an appendix explaining many changes from the first.  Under Talbot it says:

 

"One point to note is that the unique single seater constructed in 1939 does not appear to have had a chassis number.  In the 1st Edition in some cases a number was attributed in others not.  For identification purposes MC (monoplace centrale) is used and changes are listed in the Appendix as though it were a chassis number although this is more accurately a type.  Races affected are:..."

 

There then follows a list of about 30 races where 83341 or 90201 (which was used in the ultimateracinghistory website) were identified in 1st edition.