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Should F1 go mostly-spec to combat the moaning about cost and performance gaps?


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#1 richardprice

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 02:33

It's been a common theme from media commentators, fans and the teams that have made up the rear end of the pack for many years now - F1 is too expensive, F1 is a sport where the team with the biggest budget more often than not wins the podiums and titles.  Drivers, team officials, F1 owners have moaned solidly for years now about the need to "tighten up the pack" and eliminate the "top teams and best of the rest" split, so that all teams have the opportunity to succeed.  And when a single team dominates because they did a good job .... well, that just intensifies the calls for something to be done.

 

F1 is purportedly a constructor sport.  The grid is made up of teams that are supposed to build a large amount of the car themselves or contract it out to independent bodies - they cant just buy a lot of it off the shelf from another team, which was a rule brought in to try and eliminate B teams.  There is still an element of things they can buy from another team, but it's drastically reduced from what used to be allowed.

 

However.  In an effort to control spending and control the gap between teams, we have seen a move to reduce the ability of the teams to develop the cars - restrictions on engine development, restrictions on number of engines allowed per season, restrictions on testing (both physical and virtual - theres a limit on the amount of computer power a team can employ for example), restrictions on fuel flow, restrictions on areas of the car that they can develop etc etc etc.

 

Each year, rules changes bring more and more restrictions - those tenths get harder and harder to find, which ironically means more and more development investment, which means those tenths are getting more expensive to find.  Also, the best thinkers are going to go to the best teams, which means the back of the pack are still at a disadvantage.

 

The restrictions are working against the original idea.

 

So now we have a budget cap.  Which is being brought in along with a new set of rules, which means new restrictions, which means new development, which means .... you get my drift.  2021 isn't going to be the sea change everyones expecting, because the cars will be developed under 2020 cost rules, which means no budget restrictions for the front running teams.

 

Why not do something different?  With less and less of the car up for development (especially in 2021), why not make the car itself essentially spec.  Spec body work, spec suspension, spec aero, spec safety cell, spec cooling, spec brakes, spec .... you get the drift.

 

So where does the "essentially spec" come in, if so much is spec?  The engine.  Leave the engine for the manufacturers, but require them to take in fuel from a spec fuel system and connect to a spec driveshaft for the output and be cooled by a spec cooling system.  They get a certain amount of space to work with, and a certain weight budget, a certain heat dissipation budget and the rest is up to them.  They also have to supply the same spec of engine to any other team buying it.

 

Would this solve the lower teams complaints?  Would this solve Liberty F1s issues?  Would it keep the fans happy?  Thoughts?

 

For the record, I am floating this to see what the discussion is like - I'm actually for the opposite, removal of restrictions and telling teams that complain that they can compete in any other formula they want, they are there voluntarily and if they don't like the costs of competing then they can voluntarily leave.  No one is promoted to F1, and no one is demoted from F1.  It's all voluntary.


Edited by richardprice, 11 March 2020 - 03:25.


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#2 theflyingwheel

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 02:42

No.

#3 baddog

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 03:00

NO



#4 hodgy21

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 03:24

No.

#5 MattK9

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 03:35

Yes. It would be a better spectacle, but it is not the DNA of F1.

#6 Otaku

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 03:41

No.



#7 maximilian

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 04:06

No, and F1 will continue to die a slow, bitter death because of it, like it has been - especially when it becomes clear that the 2021 rules are hollow promises that won't change a thing. 

 

Thankfully there is IndyCar.  Oh, and Formula E.  Actual entertaining racing.  :up:



#8 krapmeister

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 04:20

Aren't we already there yet?

#9 zibby43

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 04:20

Nope.



#10 Paco

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 05:14

No. Watch CART Indy if fans want that.

#11 Pimpwerx

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 06:09

Short answer: No.

 

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 07:04

I’d rather do the opposite. Have F1 as a constructor series but have a spec ICE, though allowing hybrid development.



#13 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 07:20

No. I would like as little restrictions on the Formula as possible to allow for greater innovation.

EDIT: And then remove the moronic extra money that some teams (e.g. Ferrari and RBR) receive for no valid reason.

Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 13 March 2020 - 06:44.


#14 shure

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 07:26

No. 

 

It would effectively become GP1.  Part of the appeal of F1 has traditionally been to see what technical innovations the teams come up with. Sadly, the FIA's goal appears to be to stifle that as much as possible now and there is a very real risk that complete standardisation will happen at some point, but it's not something I'd welcome



#15 Cliff

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 07:52

No.

West Ham United also never wins the premier league. But if everything falls in place miracles are possible (leister/brawn).

Cost cap is a good thing to bring it a little closer, but it should stay a constructors sport with freedom to develop.

#16 balage06

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 08:06

I mean, I can guarantee it would be much more spectacular and truly about driver qualities. BuT ThE DnA Of ThE SpOrT...



#17 P123

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 08:12

Haha.  Like most, no. 

 

The 'performance gaps' aren't anywhere near what they used to be.  Teams still spend silly money.  And we don't quite have the have not's anymore, like Minardi who ran on a budget about 1/10th that of Ferrari, McLaren and Williams.  The budget cap may bring teams closer, but then look at Indycar, a much lower cost spec series, and you need to be driving for one of three teams to win the championship there.



#18 Knowlesy

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 08:43

You could make it a spec series and I guarantee the order doesn't change and probably the racing is no more exciting. Then people will moan that we have a spec series and demand a return to the good (bad) old days!

#19 Chewie

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 08:46

NO!



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#20 jAnO76

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 09:22

Nein, non, nee, no, neu-euh!

#21 alframsey

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 09:31

Proper budget cap, proper prize money distribution with no ‘legacy’ payments, a certain amount of spec parts with some room for development in some areas. I’ve got high hopes for 2021 tbh and if they brought the budget cap down further I’d be happy, let’s see how it goes next season before we start moaning I guess.

#22 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 09:35

Not mostly but FULL spec. I wanna see drivers make difference not cars.


Edited by Branislav, 11 March 2020 - 09:36.


#23 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 09:38

You could make it a spec series and I guarantee the order doesn't change and probably the racing is no more exciting. Then people will moan that we have a spec series and demand a return to the good (bad) old days!

And now is exciting :rotfl:



#24 F1matt

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 10:05

It would create a better spectacle, open racing and the budgets could be slashed massively and once they are painted in the teams and sponsors colours nobody would notice, even the so-called purists. Sadly it will never happen because the people who run the sport are clueless, terrified of change and have no real interest in improving the sport, and as someone above mentioned it will eventually die out, it has no relevance in the real world anymore and less people are watching it.

Anyone who attends a GP weekend always get to watch more entertaining races in F2 and F3 who produce more winners and closer championships.

 



#25 Sterzo

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 10:13

YES to the question posed in the thread title. (Though not the suggestions in the opening post).

 

WHY?

 

GP racing started with no restrictions other than a weight limit, but racing carries the seeds of its own destruction. Left unregulated, the cars become too fast, unsafe, expensive, and separated by their technology so the racing deteriorates. Rule makers have steadily tightened the restrictions over time, but in spite of that the F1 field is too small and  stupidly expensive. Racing could be more exciting (i.e. closer, and affected by small variations in performance during a race).

 

In addition, the motor car is under existential threat from climate change. From the start, racing has been embedded in technical development for the motor industry. It’s time to change, to focus on its role as a game, a sport, an alternative to kicking an inflated ball.

 

That’s why, now WHAT?

  1. Standard engine, gearbox, clutch and brakes.
  2. Standard electronics package.
  3. Durable low-grip tyres, to a permanent spec.
  4. Tightest of aero restrictions.
  5. Low budget.

I'll get my crash hat.
 


Edited by Sterzo, 11 March 2020 - 10:14.


#26 TomNokoe

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 10:49

Yeah. Too many variables in modern F1. Variables that are exploited by the rich teams to gain disproportionate performance advantages.

We'd soon forget about "purity" and "tradition" if we had Formula 2-esque races every week.



#27 rodnet1

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 11:13

No. F1 should be the pinnacle of technical innovation and engineering prowess. I am not against a budgetcap but within the cap would permit as much freedom as possible.



#28 F1matt

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 11:46

No. F1 should be the pinnacle of technical innovation and engineering prowess. I am not against a budgetcap but within the cap would permit as much freedom as possible.

 

 

If it is at the pinnacle of innovation why does it still need petrol and require a human to drive it?



#29 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 12:42

Maybe add a poll to this?



#30 Beri

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 12:46

No.

#31 Knowlesy

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 13:09

Yeah. Too many variables in modern F1. Variables that are exploited by the rich teams to gain disproportionate performance advantages.

We'd soon forget about "purity" and "tradition" if we had Formula 2-esque races every week.


On the other hand we could end up with F3000-esque races every week.

I definitely think there is scope for standardisation of some parts though. Indeed, it is probably a necessity for the financial viability of F1.

#32 Paco

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 13:16

Not mostly but FULL spec. I wanna see drivers make difference not cars.


There are series like that... why not just watch those, lots of those even race on the historic tracks. Why do people feel like they need to change what F1... don’t watxh if you don’t like it. There are plenty of other options..

Edited by Paco, 11 March 2020 - 13:17.


#33 Paco

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 13:18

If it is at the pinnacle of innovation why does it still need petrol and require a human to drive it?


The series should have moved to fuel cell hydrogen a long time ago.. that’s the real future and F1 could have made a good dent in it. Electric is just a bogus fad...

Edited by Paco, 11 March 2020 - 13:19.


#34 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:18

There are series like that... why not just watch those, lots of those even race on the historic tracks. Why do people feel like they need to change what F1... don’t watxh if you don’t like it. There are plenty of other options..

Always the same answers...

 

Remember. I wanna to watch these BEST drivers in FASTEST cars on BEST circuits



#35 Albertino

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:25

No.

 

Motor Racing and more specifically, F1, have never been "one thing." It's evolved and developed over the years to the point where it would be hard to place a single definition on the sport. If you want spec, watch FE, Indycar, Nascar, or something else. Why would you make F1 the same as the others?


Edited by Albertino, 11 March 2020 - 14:25.


#36 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:41

Always the same answers...

 

Remember. I wanna to watch these BEST drivers in FASTEST cars on BEST circuits

 

You're not seeing the FASTEST cars if they're spec.



#37 New Britain

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:47

Wouldn't it be better to have a realistic cost cap (one that includes all expenses including drivers' and key-man salaries), to enforce that cap strictly, and then to have an open formula in which competitors are free to use their budgets in whatever ways they see fit? That would elicit more technical innovation, whilst forcing teams to make a trade-off between paying for the best driver and paying for more car development.



#38 DeKnyff

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:51

And now is exciting :rotfl:

I don't know why you say so, but Formula 1 has been truly exciting in the last two seasons, with plenty of on-track action and drama.



#39 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:52

Wouldn't it be better to have a realistic cost cap (one that includes all expenses including drivers' and key-man salaries), to enforce that cap strictly, and then to have an open formula in which competitors are free to use their budgets in whatever ways they see fit? That would elicit more technical innovation, whilst forcing teams to make a trade-off between paying for the best driver and paying for more car development.

 

I agree, but I think it would have to go further. If teams were allowed to get big items for free or for a very low cost, then you would still have a big disparity. It's that disparity that makes people reluctant to go the F1 route.



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#40 DeKnyff

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:53

Always the same answers...

 

Remember. I wanna to watch these BEST drivers in FASTEST cars on BEST circuits

That's exactly what you currently have (taking into consideration safety issues).



#41 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:53

I don't know why you say so, but Formula 1 has been truly exciting in the last two seasons, with plenty of on-track action and drama.

 

These arguments always come up. How exciting or unexciting F1 is is totally subjective. The argument either way is meaningless and, I would say, a distraction.


Edited by pdac, 11 March 2020 - 14:53.


#42 P123

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:55

I think some in this topic hark back to a time in F1 that...… well, never actually existed. 



#43 noriaki

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:55

A bit more spec in some certain areas, yes. I am permanently in favour of restricting aero in the bits where non-spec bits will create significant amounts of dirty air.

 

Full spec, hell no. 



#44 chrisj

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:57

Yes, because I want to see a world driving championship, not a world championship of engineers with nearly unlimited budgets. My answer would have been different before this era, though. And it may be different again if the budget caps show some promise.



#45 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:58

This comes up as often as VAG-to-F1 it seems.

 

Answer the same, still No.



#46 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 14:59

Remind me what the practical difference is between something being specified exactly and something being regulated so tightly that there is no room to design anything that anyone could argue is fundamentally different to any other conformant design.



#47 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 15:08

You're not seeing the FASTEST cars if they're spec.

Who say that?

 

There's a tens of ways to make cars faster. If you didn't know they're now restricted (on engine side etc.)

 

Just a little clumsy. NHRA car has +10.000 BHP and they are waaaaaaaaay cheaper than F1 cars.  ;)



#48 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 15:16

I don't know why you say so, but Formula 1 has been truly exciting in the last two seasons, with plenty of on-track action and drama.

Maybe to Hamilton fans. For real last season was known after first two or three races. And I actually predicted the final standings after only one (first) race.



#49 Branislav

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 15:23

That's exactly what you currently have (taking into consideration safety issues).

But I have BIG GAPS. Boring races. Predictable championships.



#50 DeKnyff

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Posted 11 March 2020 - 15:29

Maybe to Hamilton fans. For real last season was known after first two or three races. And I actually predicted the final standings after only one (first) race.

Championship may have been sealed from the start, but most races have been very entertaining.