Jump to content


Photo

Back to the Future: steam power


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#1 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,950 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:40

This lock-down malarkey is having odd consequences.  I have dug out an old Christmas present, a book called 'Cars of the Late 60s', which is basically the Daily Express reviews of the London  Motor Show for the years 1965-9.
 
For each year there are a few opening articles on various subjects.  Leaving aside instances of breath-taking sexism (such as advice to lady drivers not to wear corsets and to buy 'sensible' cars) and the usual period 'British is Best' mantra that we later learnt to be less than accurate, there are some technical articles of some interest.  In the 1969 Review, a piece by David Benson suggests that steam power is the project for the future.
 
Now I am all in favour of steam power, but I don't remember any serious attempts to revive it at that time or since.   I seem to recall someone called Pellandine (?) working on steam in the 1970s but only as a very low key exercise.
 
However Benson's article outlines the advance in steam power such as the flash boiler, which cut the steaming-up process to a few seconds and potentially made steam a viable option for automotive power.  He then mentions several far more high profile folk.  Donald Healey is quoted as saying - in a very forward thinking way - that steam would reduce wastes to a minimum especially carbon pollution.  He had apparently built a prototype power unit and tested it in a kart chassis.  ICI had offered him research support.  General Motors, no less, are reported to have built two steam cars, the SE-101 and SE-124 that could reach production within a year (they didn't, I guess!).  
 
On the motor-sport front, Andy Granatelli of STP was experimenting with a steam car for the 1970 Indy 500, whilst the Lear Motor Corporation (as in Learjet) had supposedly built a steam racing car which was shown at the 1969 New York Motor Show.
 
What happened to all this steamy enterprise?  Why haven't i got a steam car on my drive?
 
 


Advertisement

#2 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:56

The Lear Vapordyne has been covered before, in an old thread about steam powered racing cars:

 

https://forums.autos...ed-racing-cars/



#3 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,203 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 21 April 2020 - 12:58

Oh, I had one, once! Everytime I used it, it spat tons of steam from the general direction of the water radiator, especially on hot days. But I think it was a hybrid, I still had to fill up at the station. :(


Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 April 2020 - 12:59.


#4 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 62,001 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 21 April 2020 - 13:00

MotorSport in 2009 did a retro on Lear's Vapordyne, they couldn't get it to work with 60s tech. 



#5 Derwent Motorsport

Derwent Motorsport
  • Member

  • 860 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 21 April 2020 - 14:17

lWho was the eccentric American millionaire who tried not too long a go to break the LSR for steam cars. Odd name like James Peabody the third or similar?


Edited by Derwent Motorsport, 21 April 2020 - 14:35.


#6 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 6,709 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 21 April 2020 - 15:51



 

 
 

What happened to all this steamy enterprise?  Why haven't i got a steam car on my drive?
 

 

 

IMG-5191sc-1.jpg

 

I am sure Dr Robert R Dyke would be delighted to show you how to knock up a replica of Whistleling Billy

;-) 


Edited by arttidesco, 21 April 2020 - 15:52.


#7 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 21 April 2020 - 15:55

lWho was the eccentric American millionaire who tried not too long a go to break the LSR for steam cars. Odd name like James Peabody the third or similar?

 

Are you thinking of the Chuk Williams project?

 

https://newatlas.com...d-record/17755/

 

It was going to use one of these:

 

http://cyclonepower.com/



#8 Zoe

Zoe
  • Member

  • 7,721 posts
  • Joined: July 99

Posted 21 April 2020 - 16:02

Oh, I had one, once! Everytime I used it, it spat tons of steam from the general direction of the water radiator, especially on hot days. But I think it was a hybrid, I still had to fill up at the station. :(

 

My very first car, an Escort MkII was like that. Most spectacular when, in winter, the radiator cap blew off and the car left a highly impressive huge cloud of white steam in its wake.

 

LSR and steam cars, if I remember correctly, wasn't a Serpollet steam car once the LSR holder?



#9 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 62,001 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 21 April 2020 - 17:00

A Stanley steamer was the first car to break the two miles per minute mark, or 200kph, in 1906, a figure its namesake came close to matching in 1977.



#10 DogEarred

DogEarred
  • Member

  • 21,478 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 21 April 2020 - 17:23

lWho was the eccentric American millionaire who tried not too long a go to break the LSR for steam cars. Odd name like James Peabody the third or similar?


Charles Burnett III.

Anglo/Canadian/US.

Related to Milord Montague of Beaulieu and part of the family that owns Selfridges


The car was designed and built in Lymington with the assistance of Glyn Bowsher.

It was named 'Inspiration'.

It broke the steam driven record in 2009 at Edwards Air Force base, running at just shy of 140 mph. It hit a top speed of 150 mph.

Don Wales (Donald Campbell's nephew also drove it.

It had some innovative boiler technology but lack of funds did not allow it to reach its full potential.

#11 Derwent Motorsport

Derwent Motorsport
  • Member

  • 860 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 21 April 2020 - 17:40

Thanks for that



#12 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,950 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 21 April 2020 - 18:07

The Lear Vapordyne has been covered before, in an old thread about steam powered racing cars:

 

https://forums.autos...ed-racing-cars/

 

MotorSport in 2009 did a retro on Lear's Vapordyne, they couldn't get it to work with 60s tech. 

Thanks for these - very interesting.  It seems that I at least remembered the name Pellandine correctly.



#13 DogEarred

DogEarred
  • Member

  • 21,478 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 21 April 2020 - 18:07

You're welcome.

 

A couple of pictures of my souvenir model.

 

(I did some work on the project.)

 

steam1.jpg

 

 

steam2.jpg



#14 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,804 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 21 April 2020 - 19:16

ISTR that Issigonis was working on a practical steam-powered vehicle as one of his last projects.



#15 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,531 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 April 2020 - 20:43

ISTR that Issigonis was working on a practical steam-powered vehicle as one of his last projects.

 

http://www.theminifo...nis-steam-mini/



#16 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 21 April 2020 - 21:41

The Pritchard engined Ford Falcon in Australia ... 

 

Ford had to recalibrate their instruments as no unburnt hydrocarbons could be found in the exhaust ... half a dozen lines above the heading The Pritchard Steam Company

 

https://en.wikipedia...hard_(engineer)


Edited by ed holly, 21 April 2020 - 21:42.


#17 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,258 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 21 April 2020 - 21:44

And there was the Gvang in Australia...

 

I don't know a great deal about it except that Bob Britton built the chassis.



#18 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,069 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 22 April 2020 - 00:23

Oh, I had one, once! Everytime I used it, it spat tons of steam from the general direction of the water radiator, especially on hot days. But I think it was a hybrid, I still had to fill up at the station. :(

That is a problem with steam,, you still have to burn a fossil fuel to heat the boiler.

As for steam from the radiator,,, only drive it on cool days!! 



#19 DogEarred

DogEarred
  • Member

  • 21,478 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 22 April 2020 - 00:44

Yes, there's an argument as to whether such vehicles are steam POWERED or steam DRIVEN.

For official LSRs, the FIA seem happy with the arrangement though..

Advertisement

#20 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 22 April 2020 - 08:26

Yes, there's an argument as to whether such vehicles are steam POWERED or steam DRIVEN.

For official LSRs, the FIA seem happy with the arrangement though..

The FIA regs were clarified in 1946 when people first started talking about using jet engines. They stuck with 'wheel driven' as the official LSR until the mid-1960s, of course, but there was never any regulation which specified the motive power, providing it was delivered to the wheels through a transmission - so internal combustion, diesel, electric, turbine, steam or even those nuclear-powered cars we used to be promised would have been okay. And at that point they did actually envisage having separate speed records for wheel driven, jet engined and even propellor-driven vehicles.

 

I know of one proposal - by a very well-known pre-war US driver - for a land speed record car which would have had a comparatively* small IC engine of some description, but would have been 'got up to speed' by using JATO rockets, presumably before it entered the measured mile and then switching to wheel driven; it was suggested this would have been within the regulations, but somehow I doubt it! Suddenly engaging a transmission at about 400mph doesn't sound a good idea and changing/refuelling the JATOs within the allowed hour would probably have been a bit of a problem too.

 

* In the sense of not being a 40-litre plus single- or twin-engined behemoth! There were of course a lot of war surplus aero engines being sold for peanuts at that time in the US.



#21 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,052 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 22 April 2020 - 10:08

Yes, there's an argument as to whether such vehicles are steam POWERED or steam DRIVEN.
 

The DVLA even lists "steam" as the fuel type!



#22 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,804 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 22 April 2020 - 10:25

...

 

I know of one proposal - by a very well-known pre-war US driver - for a land speed record car which would have had a comparatively* small IC engine of some description, but would have been 'got up to speed' by using JATO rockets, presumably before it entered the measured mile and then switching to wheel driven; it was suggested this would have been within the regulations, but somehow I doubt it! Suddenly engaging a transmission at about 400mph doesn't sound a good idea and changing/refuelling the JATOs within the allowed hour would probably have been a bit of a problem too.

 

...

Reminds me of the great Andy Granatelli story in his autobiography of how they attached four (?) RATO rockets to a Midget racer for demonstration runs at Oval tracks.  Each rocket was individually fired by a button on the dash and the plan was to fire them at equal points around the oval, to share the experience with all the spectators. Unfortunately on the first (and probably final) demo run, it also shared the years of accumulated pigeon guano in the roof of each grandstand, shaken loose by the detonation of the rockets. Back to the drawing board.



#23 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 22 April 2020 - 10:56

Yep, this was at exactly the same time as Andy was touring as 'The Great Antonio'! He wasn't the only one either. We're veering off steam power, but there were some odd ideas about what JATOs could be used for; one suggestion was as 'auxiliary brakes' for rail locomotives. Yes, you read that right - auxiliary brakes! Presumably firing forwards as a way of reducing stopping distances - but perhaps only for emergencies? Again, probably something that wasn't thought through ...



#24 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,052 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 22 April 2020 - 11:03

This thread and its drift to rocketry puts me in mind of a lecture on steam-powered aeroplanes I attended. The speaker had worked in the rocketry section of de Havilland Engines, where the liquid fuelled rockets ran on kerosene and hydrogen peroxide (or just hydrogen peroxide in the case of the Sprite).

The result of the reaction was mainly water which, at the temperatures and pressures involved, was of course steam which provided the thrust.

I'd guess the rockets in the Granatelli story were solid fuel so not steam-producing.



#25 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,069 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 22 April 2020 - 11:28

Yes, there's an argument as to whether such vehicles are steam POWERED or steam DRIVEN.

For official LSRs, the FIA seem happy with the arrangement though..

All steam vehicles will be steam driven. Trains, ag equipment, steam shovels :p ,motorcars, ships, factories all burn something to heat boilers.

With all the b/s about coal powered electricity generation,, they burn coal to make steam which generates electricity. Steam is very efficient in stationary applications. I believe a few steam line powered factories still around. Defenitly some using a diesel in replacement of the steam engine that wore out after a 100 years.

Dave Richards on You Tube is running one, though built recently with a heap of refurbished 100 y/o equipment. And it seems quite efficient though all those belts worry me.

And the Flying Scotsman train is still showering England & Scotland with sparks and steam! I have not heard any complaints about that however.

World wide ofcourse steam trains are still in semi practical service on tourist routes. A few double as normal rail services as well.

And India has heaps of them,, held together with wire and prayer!!



#26 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,069 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 22 April 2020 - 11:31

Yep, this was at exactly the same time as Andy was touring as 'The Great Antonio'! He wasn't the only one either. We're veering off steam power, but there were some odd ideas about what JATOs could be used for; one suggestion was as 'auxiliary brakes' for rail locomotives. Yes, you read that right - auxiliary brakes! Presumably firing forwards as a way of reducing stopping distances - but perhaps only for emergencies? Again, probably something that wasn't thought through ...

That comes with the Ford railway? With their heavily faired steam train?



#27 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 22 April 2020 - 13:10

That comes with the Ford railway? With their heavily faired steam train?

No specifics given. Just a remark - by a representative of a company that built JATOs - in an article in a US paper. I'm no physicist, but I don't think it would have worked ...



#28 RogerFrench

RogerFrench
  • Member

  • 688 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 22 April 2020 - 16:51

We had a little treat a few months ago, the world's largest steam railway locomotive came past our neighbourhood. Big Boy 4014, a 4 8 8 4 monster that was impressive to see and hear.
Sadly, it's oil-fired, so no nostalgic smells.

#29 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,705 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 22 April 2020 - 18:38

Yes, there's an argument as to whether such vehicles are steam POWERED or steam DRIVEN.

For official LSRs, the FIA seem happy with the arrangement though..

Nobody has mentioned water injection into an IC engine yet. As Tyrrell were wrongly accused of doing, but the Focke-Wolfe FW 190 did do - I think the latter was also turbocharged. 

 
I wonder if the Combined Cycle Gas Turbine principle could be scaled down from power stations to cars.  To refresh people's memories this comprises a gas turbine generating power and then using the "waste" exhaust heat to boil water to drive a steam turbine.
 


Edited by D-Type, 22 April 2020 - 18:43.


#30 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,589 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 22 April 2020 - 18:57

Steam power isn't something "old fashioned" at all, as many people seem to think. They don't realise that 21st century machinery like nuclear submarines and nuclear power stations are actually steam powered, nuclear energy just boils the water to produce steam that powers turbines.



#31 Bonde

Bonde
  • Member

  • 1,072 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 22 April 2020 - 20:38

All steam vehicles will be steam driven. Trains, ag equipment, steam shovels :p ,motorcars, ships, factories all burn something to heat boilers.

With all the b/s about coal powered electricity generation,, they burn coal to make steam which generates electricity. Steam is very efficient in stationary applications. I believe a few steam line powered factories still around. Defenitly some using a diesel in replacement of the steam engine that wore out after a 100 years.

Dave Richards on You Tube is running one, though built recently with a heap of refurbished 100 y/o equipment. And it seems quite efficient though all those belts worry me.

And the Flying Scotsman train is still showering England & Scotland with sparks and steam! I have not heard any complaints about that however.

World wide ofcourse steam trains are still in semi practical service on tourist routes. A few double as normal rail services as well.

And India has heaps of them,, held together with wire and prayer!!

The reason steam is much more efficient in stationary applications (and on large marine vessels) is that they can run much higher boiler pressures and condense the spent steam back to the boiler. The mass and bulk of really high pressure boilers and condensers is simply not practical on locomotives or automobiles (although the latter typically had condensers). The boiler pressure kan be likened to the compression ratio of an IC engine. Another challenge for automotive applications (and even for rail locomotives) is that the steam generation modulation is sluggish at best due to the necessarily large thermal inertia of the firebox/boiler/piping/valving/cylinder systems. Flash boilers come in handy here, but they don't necessarily improve the overall efficiency much. A thermal efficiency of 15% for a coal-fired steam locomotive is considered to be very good.

 

Apart from its ability to run on anything that burns, the advantage of steam drive in automotive or locomotive applications is its relative quietness and the fact that no change-gear transmission is required. Like an electric motor, the steam piston engine can deliver full torque from 0 RPM and up - it's hugely flexible. The steam turbine does need to get up to speed and has a lot of rotational inertia and also typically needs reduction gearing, but it's very efficient compared with piston engines. As Kayemod stated, team turbines are used in nuclear power plants for driving the electric generators.

 

As an aside, I believe that huge steam locomotives are still used in China to haul freight, not least coal.

 

And I just happen to love the sight, smell, sound and sensation of a [coal fired] steam locomotive - like racing cars and cars of the past, they offer something for all the senses. A steam locomotive is almost like a breathing, living being  :smoking:


Edited by Bonde, 22 April 2020 - 20:44.


#32 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 80,258 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 22 April 2020 - 22:47

The Kleinig Hudson used water injection...

 

Frank Kleinig used to sell his water injection systems for road cars but also used it on this race car.



#33 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,069 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 23 April 2020 - 00:31

Water injection has always been a talking point. At best if working correctly it does not hurt.

A local dyno shop tried runs with and without on a mild 351 Ford. Which had it fitted. There was no appreciable difference with or without. The only thing that it does is maybe cool intake temps a little. And on 22 kilos of cast iron intake it should have helped



#34 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,804 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:03

Water injection gave a useful take-off boost to the early B52s and their SAC predecessors, though did tend to blot out the surrounding countryside for a while.



#35 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,052 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:17

Water injection gave a useful take-off boost to the early B52s and their SAC predecessors, though did tend to blot out the surrounding countryside for a while.

Water injection was used in the Rolls-Royce Spey engine for some versions of the Trident and 1-11 airliners. As with piston engines the function is cooling and the "wet" Spey maintained its take-off thrust rating at higher ambient temperatures than the "dry" version. Such steam as there was in the exhaust was superheated so invisible.



#36 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,950 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 23 April 2020 - 11:38

As an aside, I believe that huge steam locomotives are still used in China to haul freight, not least coal.

 

And I just happen to love the sight, smell, sound and sensation of a [coal fired] steam locomotive - like racing cars and cars of the past, they offer something for all the senses. A steam locomotive is almost like a breathing, living being  :smoking:

Steam haulage in China survived until very recently - I think the last has now been phased out - because they had large coil mining operations and, like the UK in the 1950s, saw it made sense to use that coal to power the locomotives moving it. 

 

There is certainly something special about a steam engine; you only have to see very young kids taken to ride on preserved steam trains and see how entranced they are by the noise and smells and spectacle of a steam locomotive.  It is no coincidence that Thomas the Tank Engine remains a children's favourite more than 50 years after the last steam trains ran on the British railway.



#37 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,589 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 23 April 2020 - 13:11

Many small children still refer to any diesel or electric train as a "choo-choo". Probably ingrained from their reading (or being read to) matter.



#38 ed holly

ed holly
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 23 April 2020 - 21:49

Water injection was used in the Rolls-Royce Spey engine for some versions of the Trident and 1-11 airliners. As with piston engines the function is cooling and the "wet" Spey maintained its take-off thrust rating at higher ambient temperatures than the "dry" version. Such steam as there was in the exhaust was superheated so invisible.

Our (Eastwest) 44 seat F27 100 series powered by Roll Royce Darts  out of Armidale NSW Australia could lift about 38 people with a "wet" take-off on a typical summer's day. Wet meant using water/methanol. Without it (dry take-off) we could lift about a half dozen. Armidale is around 3500 ft altitude.



#39 Terry Walker

Terry Walker
  • Member

  • 3,005 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 24 April 2020 - 00:49

Some years ago I was holidaying in Ireland and one night stayed at the hotel at "Meeting of the Waters", Wicklow. Coming back from sightseeing, what should I find parked outside the hotel: not one, but two White Steamers, both hissing like kitchen kettles while their crew were in the bar refuelling.



Advertisement

#40 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,869 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2020 - 07:48

Steam vehicle restorers JR Goold Steam Ltd are just down the road from me and I've occasionally seen them road testing vehicles through the village. Here's a Stanley they did some years ago.

 

 

And here are a couple of steamers going up Prescott ...

 



#41 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,908 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 April 2020 - 09:36

Nobody has mentioned water injection into an IC engine yet. As Tyrrell were wrongly accused of doing, but the Focke-Wolfe FW 190 did do - I think the latter was also turbocharged. 

 
I wonder if the Combined Cycle Gas Turbine principle could be scaled down from power stations to cars.  To refresh people's memories this comprises a gas turbine generating power and then using the "waste" exhaust heat to boil water to drive a steam turbine.
 

 

Tyrrell wrongly accused?

Sorry but they defended the water tank (which was filled up during the race ....) with the arguement that they used water injection on their normally aspirated Cosworth!

So maybe that they didn't do it after all but they certainly put out words in that direction that they were doing it.

Maybe not that they did set their own house on fire, but they were talking about doing so......

An attorney tring to plea not guilty for his customer after the customer already proclaimed guilt?

 

 

I do known however that Ferrari did use water injection on their turbocharged engines in 1983. There is one occasion that season that after the race the team found out that the system had failed on Tambay's car and when he was asked about it if he had noticed a lack of performance of the engie that he couldnt tlell if it had.

 

As for steam cars, I have had the joy of having had a ride in one. despite being almost unprotected against the elements and it beoing very cold that day, it was one of the three best rides I had in a car, ever in my entire live.
 



#42 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 62,001 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 24 April 2020 - 09:53

Tyrrell wrongly accused?

Sorry but they defended the water tank (which was filled up during the race ....) with the arguement that they used water injection on their normally aspirated Cosworth!

So maybe that they didn't do it after all but they certainly put out words in that direction that they were doing it.

Maybe not that they did set their own house on fire, but they were talking about doing so......

An attorney tring to plea not guilty for his customer after the customer already proclaimed guilt?

 

They were thrown out of the championship for illegal refuelling, and then, on appeal, when Tyrrell showed that that accusation was load of old sloblock, FISA changed the disqualification for breaching the flat-bottom regulations and illegal ballast.

 

It was 1,000,000% a stitch-up to get the rules changed and to get around Tyrrell's veto.



#43 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,908 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 April 2020 - 11:38

They were thrown out of the championship for illegal refuelling, and then, on appeal, when Tyrrell showed that that accusation was load of old sloblock, FISA changed the disqualification for breaching the flat-bottom regulations and illegal ballast.

 

It was 1,000,000% a stitch-up to get the rules changed and to get around Tyrrell's veto.

They were cheating, everyone knew and realized and they got punished for that rightfully. No-one would make a voluntary pit stop shortly before the finish and surrender positions in the race if there was not a really really good reason for that. And with refuelling or adding oil being forbidden, the only reason for needing a pit stop to take on fluids had to be to cover up for something: having run too light for at least a substantial part of the race and this being found out if the car finishes in the state it started the race with the exception of spend fuel, oil and/or coolants.

 

To get around that veto, well if you don't play games according the rules as they were, don't be surprised if you get back the same but a little harder in reward for your cheating, certainly with Balestre at the helm and Ecclestone shifting his attention from FOCA to other, more private interests.

 

 

On topic, have you ever had a ride in a steam car?



#44 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 62,001 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:33

They were cheating, everyone knew and realized and they got punished for that rightfully. No-one would make a voluntary pit stop shortly before the finish and surrender positions in the race if there was not a really really good reason for that. And with refuelling or adding oil being forbidden, the only reason for needing a pit stop to take on fluids had to be to cover up for something: having run too light for at least a substantial part of the race and this being found out if the car finishes in the state it started the race with the exception of spend fuel, oil and/or coolants.

 

Except that it was obviously over minimum weight at Monaco because it would have been weighed after the race.  And Tyrrell was never charged with running underweight.  It would have been easy to prove by extrapolating back from the end.  Which suggests that the Tyrrells came in for their stops just before they would have dipped under the weight limit.

 

Plus their performance at Detroit in 1985, coming 4th against cars with a year of improvement (and it would have been 3rd but for that moron Alliot), suggests that the car was good enough to get the results it got on street circuits the previous year under whatever weight regime the collaborator imposed.

 

It's actually genius, but we know from recent history that genius is not allowed in F1, unless Ferrari can copy it.

 

Never been in a steam-powered car, but I like the bodywork here...

 

27254317181_9a9002c440_b.jpg


Edited by ensign14, 24 April 2020 - 12:35.


#45 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,908 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:53

Except that it was obviously over minimum weight at Monaco because it would have been weighed after the race.  And Tyrrell was never charged with running underweight.  It would have been easy to prove by extrapolating back from the end.  Which suggests that the Tyrrells came in for their stops just before they would have dipped under the weight limit.

 

Plus their performance at Detroit in 1985, coming 4th against cars with a year of improvement (and it would have been 3rd but for that moron Alliot), suggests that the car was good enough to get the results it got on street circuits the previous year under whatever weight regime the collaborator imposed.

 

It's actually genius, but we know from recent history that genius is not allowed in F1, unless Ferrari can copy it.

 

Never been in a steam-powered car, but I like the bodywork here...

 

27254317181_9a9002c440_b.jpg

 

Monaco was finished off early but had it been flagged off later on?

Anyway, with the rain etc this was about the only occasion that running at legal weight was for the better (more mechanical grip) thus not reason for cheating.

You're picking the best occasion to defend your man&team to cover up the cheating in other events.

 

 

As for no innovation being allowed other then that Ferrari can copy: How about Ferrari's staggered wing of Long Beach '82? Protested by, of all persons a certain Ken Tyrrell????

 

 

 

OK, we've battled out again, only to find out we won't give in to another to find common sense and a point of agreement.

May I dare to suggest to leave the subject and return to topic again from here on?

Till next time.

 

 

I had a ride on a White steamer and the most stunning thing was that when the owner was done with playing with the car the steam boiler had to be vented off.

Spectators were told to take a safe distance because of the steam clouds and temperatures of those as well as the noise level.

As if a factory came to a close-down.



#46 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,203 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 April 2020 - 12:55

I like the bodywork, too - if they could just shove that white something out of the way, it's blocking the view!!