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Reverse grid sprint races proposed for Austria and Silverstone double-headers [Split]


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#1 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:00

https://the-race.com...n-2020-openers/

Reverse grid sprint races to replace quali at the ‘double headers’ in Austria and Britain.....

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#2 Marklar

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:36

Well, given that we have less races gimmicks have even more impact now than before, but OTOH this year is a mess anyway, and with having the data available the 2nd race has a bit potential to be boring.

So cant believe I'm saying this but this is the one scenario where I dont mind it

#3 Stephane

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:53

This is not a qualifying race. This is the first part of a longer race with a giant red flag in the middle.



#4 Kalmake

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:55

Well, given that we have less races gimmicks have even more impact now than before, but OTOH this year is a mess anyway, and with having the data available the 2nd race has a bit potential to be boring.

So cant believe I'm saying this but this is the one scenario where I dont mind it

Once it gets in, it will stay.

 

Lack of resistance suggest this will pass sooner or later. I hope the one team (probably Mercedes) will block this again so I have one more season of F1 to watch.



#5 Sash1

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 06:57

It will be exciting. I hope the teams bring a lot of spare wings, suspensions and floors.

#6 AustinF1

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 07:28

Yep ... that will save a lot of money.



#7 ExFlagMan

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 08:04

It will be exciting. I hope the teams bring a lot of spare wings, suspensions and floors.

 

Might be - in the brief intervals between the SC/VSC/Red flag interruptions whilst the small 'family units' of marshals attempt to pick up the pieces.

 

Lets hope the debris is either in small enough pieces for one marshal to carry or large enough that two marshals can carry it whilst keeping 2 metres apart.



#8 pdac

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 08:51

Well, given that we have less races gimmicks have even more impact now than before, but OTOH this year is a mess anyway, and with having the data available the 2nd race has a bit potential to be boring.

So cant believe I'm saying this but this is the one scenario where I dont mind it

 

They should try messing around with the tyre options for the second race.



#9 ExFlagMan

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 09:12

Just make them reuse the ones they had in the first race.



#10 Kalmake

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 09:29

Reversing the tyres Pirellis has been done before.



#11 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 09:33

Why not? Seasons a mess anyway so might as well try some of these things, most of which, will likely be binned.

#12 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 10:15

I agree that the circumstances necessitate the change, but I'm still not fully onboard.

I really dislike the notions of "let's see if it works", "give it a shot", "if it doesn't work we'll rethink". It comes across as lazy and irresponsible.

I've never been fully onboard with *qualifying races* because in regular format F1, you naturally have some cars/drivers that are quick in qualifying, and some that are quicker in the race. This has always been a crucial element of F1's DNA, IMO, and is often the underlying cause for a really good, pure, race. To lose that contrast only serves in making the main Sunday race even more predictable. If team X are quick on Saturday, they'll be quick on Sunday.

However, having run a Grand Prix at the same circuit a week earlier, there will already be a tremendous amount of predictability before a wheel is turned, so this is an acceptable option to ensure a level of variance versus the first race.

The only real variable I can see that will properly skew the Sunday grid is car+driver's ability/bravery to overtake, but I think with today's electrical energy and DRS, this skill is greatly reduced and any affect it does have will be wiped away pretty quickly on Sunday. It's also a shame that your reward for slicing through the field is ... a slightly better grid spot. No doubt we will see some thrilling action that won't actually amount to WDC points, which is a bit strange.

I'm not looking forward to the inevitable lap 1 crashes, that consign a WDC challenger to the back of the grid for the main race, essentially ruining their weekend because they were *forced* to start from the back.

And depending on how long these races are, race control need to speed up their VSC/SC turn arounds. We can't spend 10/20% of a reverse grid race cruising around, it defeats the purpose.

It remains to be seen if the overall weekend format will be shortened - I would hope so. The second Grand Prix should be two-day events. 1hr practice + Qrace SAT / Grand Prix SUN.

It also remains to be seen how tyre allocation will work. Will teams be free to choose which tyre to run on Saturday, and will this affect their starting tyre for Sunday? Undoubtedly the purpose of a sprint race is *no pit stops*, although with the harder Pirellis being pretty durable, and starting on half-tanks, this probably won't matter.

Overall, despite my reservations, under the circumstances, what choice do we have :D?

Edited by TomNokoe, 31 May 2020 - 10:33.


#13 Marklar

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 10:25

Once it gets in, it will stay.

Lack of resistance suggest this will pass sooner or later. I hope the one team (probably Mercedes) will block this again so I have one more season of F1 to watch.

Funny enough I think Mercedes will be the most helped by reversed grids since it affects only Spielberg & Silverstone.

In Spielberg they likely will be behind both Red Bull and Ferrari unless they fixed their high altitude engine issues. Reverse grids now prevents Verstappen from winning both races.

Though of course you could say the same about Merc in Silverstone, but here the gap will be likely smaller.

But yeah, I agree that once it gets in it might actually stay if it isnt a massive flop, which would be just a big no.

#14 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 10:45

But yeah, I agree that once it gets in it might actually stay if it isnt a massive flop, which would be just a big no.


It would be a disaster for single-header races. This only works because of the unique calendar format.

Motorsport confirm Mercedes are the dissenting voice, and that the races will only be 30 minutes, which is quite short.

#15 renzmann

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 10:49

I think reverse grids of any kind are an idea far to extreme, albeit an exciting one. I hope they don't go for it, because the odder the circumstances, the more questionable the status of this championship will be.

 

I don't think the available data will make the second race(s) boring. The double headers are planned for the beginning of the season, i.e. we'll see teams being surprised by their cars all over the place ("we still have to understand the car" - love that one). This time, less team personel at the track will likely induce further contingency. Many teams getting their act together in the second race (maybe chosing another pit strategy anticipating the winning strategy of the first race) can lead to a very different second race. Also consider that a single safety car situation can change the course of the whole race. Weather conditions can drastically change. Etc.

 

If anything, I'd prefer Kalmake's idea of introducing some kind of new tyre rule.


Edited by renzmann, 31 May 2020 - 10:53.


#16 Red5ive

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 10:55

Well a reverse grid might give Williams a pole position so its not all bad...



#17 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 11:02

"the regular FP1, FP2 and FP3 sessions all run as normal." from Autosport's article

:lol: cmon

#18 ExFlagMan

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 11:34


And depending on how long these races are, race control need to speed up their VSC/SC turn arounds. We can't spend 10/20% of a reverse grid race cruising around, it defeats the purpose.
 

 

I am not sure that is going to happen - reduced no of marshals in smaller groups means any car that just pulls off will take even longer than usual to recover and clearing up debris/treating oil slicks will also take longer.



#19 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 11:36

I am not sure that is going to happen - reduced no of marshals in smaller groups means any car that just pulls off will take even longer than usual to recover and clearing up debris/treating oil slicks will also take longer.


We can't spend 10 minutes of a 30 minute sprint race behind SC.

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#20 MurMur80

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 12:01

Thank you Mercedes for saying no to this reverse grid crap.



#21 ExFlagMan

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 12:30

We can't spend 10 minutes of a 30 minute sprint race behind SC.

 

IN that case you can always leave the car were it is and cover with it yellow flags.

 

Oh, I forgot - F1 drivers are allowed to ignore them...



#22 JHSingo

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 12:40

I've always been against reversed grids in F1. I don't get the appeal for them, or understand why they're considered the latest "magic bullet" fix.

 

It doesn't matter what means you determine the grid by, but if the cars still can't race and the tyres don't degrade much, then you're still going to get boring races.

 

Besides, how many times have we seen recently where one of the leading contenders has been able to come through the pack easily? It's mainly because those in the midfield make absolutely no attempts at defending, because they know they're so much quicker there's no point doing so. They might as well wave out the cockpit as they're letting them by.

 

Just because this season is screwed up shouldn't be reason to test things that likely won't work, or make any difference. F1 has a recent history of introducing cocked up ideas (remember elimination quali?) - so no, let's not do this, thanks.

 

And yes, I'm someone who can't think of anything less appealing than every race being dominated by Merc yet again. But still, reversed grids in F1 are a stupid idea.


Edited by JHSingo, 31 May 2020 - 12:42.


#23 Disgrace

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:00

Thank you Mercedes for saying no to this reverse grid crap.

 

As if they're doing it on principle.



#24 P123

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:06

Reverse grid races are a gimmick, but fine for these double headers in order to attempt to provide some difference between the races.  They also need to be short enough to prevent the likes of Merc, Red Bull and Ferrari waltzing to the front, otherwise it won't do much towards the aim of mixing up the starting grids.



#25 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:07

I've put this new push for reverse grid races into a new thread. Carry on!



#26 Atreiu

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:10

Again with this nonsense?

#27 P123

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:15

Again with this nonsense?

 

OK for a stop-gap.  The concern would be they would think it a great idea for the majority of races.  I can imagine some messing around with finishing orders and a rush to retire for those out of the points if it guarantees a favourable sprint race grid slot for the next race should this become a thing as opposed to proper qualifying.  And if based on championship position, after a very short while these sprint race grids would look even more familiar than the current GP grids do.  The cars won;t suddenly become easier to race based on the number of laps...


Edited by P123, 31 May 2020 - 13:16.


#28 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:25

Nooo. After too long a wait to have F1 back, don't start with this crap. Use the digital races for this, but leave proper racing alone.

#29 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:40

I've been thinking all morning and I think it's an acceptable change in order to avoid two things:

The predictability of Weekend 2 of double-headers.

To redress the balance of a skewed calendar favouring some teams more than others.

I would be quite disappointed if it didn't go through.

Edited by TomNokoe, 31 May 2020 - 13:43.


#30 Requiem84

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:42

Conservatism of F1 fans strike again.

Over and over.

If there’s a moment to try something new it is now. Especially with 2 races on the same track.

If F1 wouldn’t try this idea and we’d see two boring copy/pasta races, the criticism would me much bigger.

#31 renzmann

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 13:51

As if they're doing it on principle.

Exactly, tells you something about the confidence Merc has in their new car. Season over  ;)



#32 Victor

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:00

Well, given that we have less races gimmicks have even more impact now than before, but OTOH this year is a mess anyway, and with having the data available the 2nd race has a bit potential to be boring.

So cant believe I'm saying this but this is the one scenario where I dont mind it

But it opens the door for reverse grids as a standard in the future. :down:  :down:  :down:



#33 Ali623

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:10

The entire point of reverse grids in F2, F3 ect is to test younger drivers in all scenarios, so faster drivers still have to fight through the pack rather than just starting every race from the front

#34 Goron3

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:13

But it opens the door for reverse grids as a standard in the future. :down: :down: :down:


That's quite a leap. If it's a standout success then maybe we'll see it more, but we won't if it's not successful.

One thing people aren't mentioning here is a possible financial impact. If you're sponsoring an event like Silverstone or Austria for big money and then find out there's an identical event the following week, you're asking for some of your money back. Likewise, I'm sure Liberty would like to bring in a big name sponsor for the reverse grid weekend.

#35 MurMur80

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:32

As if they're doing it on principle.

I know. Like any other team opposing rule changes.



#36 Tiakumosan

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:35

I don't like it, but who am I anyways.



#37 Lights

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 14:47

That's quite a leap. If it's a standout success then maybe we'll see it more, but we won't if it's not successful.

 

I don't think it's such a big leap to be wary of what opening the door could result in. The last time F1 tried a new qualifying format in 2016 the universal hatred for it became instantly clear. Yet the FIA was so stubborn that they rejected proposals to return to the previous qualifying system. Even after the 2nd qualifying in Bahrain they didn't want to listen and instead kept proposing new 'compromise' ideas. It required an unanimous letter from all teams in which they demanded a return to the old system while making it clear they would refuse any alternatives. Only then the FIA agreed.

 

So no, I'm not so confident that once something new is tried out and it's not great, common sense would prevail to reverse it.


Edited by Lights, 31 May 2020 - 14:47.


#38 rodlamas

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:03

The entire point of reverse grids in F2, F3 ect is to test younger drivers in all scenarios, so faster drivers still have to fight through the pack rather than just starting every race from the front

The point is: on a 100km race, 30 minutes, you can put a Mercedes starting 10s back of the penultimate row. You would still have them on P4-P5-P6 by the end of the sprint race.

 

Just check the last race we had, we had a Mercedes on last place, with DRS disabled still slicing through the field.


Edited by rodlamas, 31 May 2020 - 15:03.


#39 Alexis*27

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:07

"But I voted against it because when you're looking at the 100m final in the Olympics, you're not making Usain Bolt start five metres behind just to make it an exciting finish."


Yet you're happy with a Williams or a Sauber starting literally quarter of a mile behind?

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#40 SonGoku

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:08

All F1 fans should put their support behind Mercedes, what a crazy idea, just as good as that new disater qualy format we had a few years ago.

#41 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:14

Reverse grids are a horrible gimmick.

#42 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:16

Yet you're happy with a Williams or a Sauber starting literally quarter of a mile behind?

That's what qualifying is for! We don't need to reinvent the wheel here.



#43 PayasYouRace

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:17

I don't think it's such a big leap to be wary of what opening the door could result in. The last time F1 tried a new qualifying format in 2016 the universal hatred for it became instantly clear. Yet the FIA was so stubborn that they rejected proposals to return to the previous qualifying system. Even after the 2nd qualifying in Bahrain they didn't want to listen and instead kept proposing new 'compromise' ideas. It required an unanimous letter from all teams in which they demanded a return to the old system while making it clear they would refuse any alternatives. Only then the FIA agreed.

 

So no, I'm not so confident that once something new is tried out and it's not great, common sense would prevail to reverse it.

 

But that's an example of exactly what you're worried about. Something new was tried, wasn't popular and was dropped.



#44 Risil

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:21

But that's an example of exactly what you're worried about. Something new was tried, wasn't popular and was dropped.

 

Took a hell of a lot of politics (how much time must it have taken to get unanimous team principal consent?), and two failed qualifying sessions in front of the TV audience, to get it dropped though.



#45 ANF

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:22

Conservatism of F1 fans strike again.

Over and over.

If there’s a moment to try something new it is now. Especially with 2 races on the same track.

If F1 wouldn’t try this idea and we’d see two boring copy/pasta races, the criticism would me much bigger.

If this is the moment to try something new, then disable DRS!

#46 Marklar

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:27

The point is: on a 100km race, 30 minutes, you can put a Mercedes starting 10s back of the penultimate row. You would still have them on P4-P5-P6 by the end of the sprint race.

 

Just check the last race we had, we had a Mercedes on last place, with DRS disabled still slicing through the field.

That's actually not how it works.

If one or two top cars start from behind they will indeed slice through the field. If however 5 or 6 start from the back they will likely hold each other up by fighting each other instead of overtaking all the other cars. They will obviously still overtake some cars, but it wont be anywhere near as easy as it normally would, unless they make an agreement pre-race to not attack each other until a certain position, which they obviously wont.

Obviously they technically have 1.5 races time for this, so they probably will end up at the end of the main race on the podium or win, but the sprint race wont be this easy.


Edited by Marklar, 31 May 2020 - 15:28.


#47 Lights

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:28

But that's an example of exactly what you're worried about. Something new was tried, wasn't popular and was dropped.

 

It wasn't just not popular, it was hated by basically all fans, pundits, teams, and drivers alike. And like Risil said, it took a hell of a lot to reverse it, much more than it should have taken.

 

Now take a new format that might not be great for the sport but not universally disliked either, with some teams and drivers liking it more than others depending on where they stand in the order, and form a logical conclusion of how that might go.


Edited by Lights, 31 May 2020 - 15:31.


#48 BuddyHolly

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:30

If they want to have "gimmick" races for the rest of 2020 I am fine with that on one condition, there is no WDC/WCC awarded.  



#49 Heyli

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:30

I dont like it. Sure if there is a season where we could give it a go, this one is probably it... But I dont like the artifically favouring the worse performing teams. That's like giving somebody a 2-0 lead in football, or a 3-0 lead in Tennis. 

 

If somebody is performing better, they shouldn't be punished for it. 



#50 ANF

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 15:32

It wasn't just not popular, it was hated by basically all fans, pundits, teams, and drivers alike. And like Risil said, it took a hell of a lot to reverse it, much more than it should have taken.
 
Now take a new format that might not be great for the sport but not universally disliked either, with some teams and drivers liking it more than others depending where they stand in the order, and form a logical conclusion of how that might go.

Like DRS.
Or – one would hope – NASCAR "stages".