953 replies to this topic

[Spillage]

I thought this might deserve it's own thread. For what it's worth I think it was LH's fault and a penalty was justified - Albon was clearly ahead and Hamilton just seemed to drift into his rear wheel. What do you guys think?

EDIT: footage of the incident here: https://streamable.com/crvhdt

Edited by Spillage, 05 July 2020 - 15:22.

[anyeis]

Did Hamilton understeer even? Seemed like standard line

[jacdaniel]

The real question is... is 5 seconds enough for destroying a persons race?

[Marklar]

Hamilton to blame, but for me this falls still in the no penalty category, but it's okay.

[MinardiCrashDummy]

Albion did the same thing to Hamilton on the first lap and Hamilton backed of to avoid contact

[geralt]

Racing incident, if you go around the outside on such a tight turn you're always exposing yourself to risk. Hamilton was in a similar situation in lap 1 with Albon (but in reverse) and he backed out

[Spillage]

It was a pretty scruffy weekend for Hamilton. Penalised for ignoring yellow flags in quali and then for this in the race. I know there's a lot of anger on this forum but I really think he only has himself to blame for these incidents.

[Atreiu]

Bonehead penalty.

[PayasYouRace]

Hamilton's fault but I'm not sure if he deserved a penalty for it. He was careless and should have given room.

[chrcol]

The real question is... is 5 seconds enough for destroying a persons race?

 

penalties should never be determined by the result, but rather on the rule been broken.

 

I have no opinion on the penalty until I see the view from albon's side, did albon turn in, was there room for him on the outside? until I see that, dont know, as well as all the million collisions in the race they let go, as for me consistency is important in decision making.

Edited by chrcol, 05 July 2020 - 15:11.

[NixxxoN]

Penalty.

Harsh? maybe, but it has to be a penalty.
Ham understeered a bit and hit Albon who was overtaking him on the outside and was already in front when both collided.

If they collided and nothing happened and Albon had overtaken him successfully, there would be no penalty, but Albon got taken off, and his race was ruined, so...

Penalty, no discussion

Edited by NixxxoN, 05 July 2020 - 15:40.

[Baddoer]

Nobody gives a s**t about Albot so he takes all the pain.

[statman]

Alonso quote can be pasted here, something with space

[MaxisOne]

Hamilton primarily in the wrong there. As for the penalty. Unsure if it was deserved but the way the weekend was going i saw it coming and was ok with it.

[Huffer]

A BS penalty. Albon was just over optimistic. It's up the the overtaking driver to ensure they can execute the move without undue contact. There's this idiotic idea that Hamilton should just have waved Albon through, which I completely don't get. 
 

Oh well, it is what it is. 

[William Hunt]

Penalties in F1 are ridiculous these days, it always used to be a stop & go penatly in the '90s and early 2000s. 5 seconds penalty is nothing if you have a top car like a Mercedes since you can build up a gap in a couple of laps with a dominant car.

 

I don't get why the question 'Who was to blame' is asked because the FIA stewards already decided who was at fault so there is no question that it's Lewis. Or do people here claim they know it better as the stewards (including a former F1 driver)?

[Fastcake]

To repeat what I said in the race thread, I think it was quite marginal to give Hamilton a penalty, and a different set of stewards may have ruled the other way. But Albon was ahead, so the “fault” lands with Lewis, even if you think it should be judged a racing incident.

[FullOppositeLock]

Racing incident, if you go around the outside on such a tight turn you're always exposing yourself to risk. Hamilton was in a similar situation in lap 1 with Albon (but in reverse) and he backed out

Don’t think the situations are even remotely comparable. Unless I remember wrongly Lewis was never ahead of Albon on the outside coming out of the corner?

[Ncedi]

A BS penalty. Albon was just over optimistic. It's up the the overtaking driver to ensure they can execute the move without undue contact. There's this idiotic idea that Hamilton should just have waved Albon through, which I completely don't get.

Oh well, it is what it is.

You've got to be kidding me, Albon isnt just merely along side but ahead when he gets hit? How does he avoid the contact?

[Huffer]

Penalties in F1 are ridiculous these days, it always used to be a stop & go penatly in the '90s and early 2000s. 5 seconds penalty is nothing if you have a top car like a Mercedes since you can build up a gap in a couple of laps with a dominant car.

 

I don't get why the question 'Who was to blame' is asked because the FIA stewards already decided who was at fault so there is no question that it's Lewis. Or do people here claim they know it better as the stewards (including a former F1 driver)?

 

So the stewards never make incorrect rulings,  is that what you're saying? I seem to recall a time where they reversed their ruling from the day before, just before the race was due to start...hmm..if only I could recall when that was... 

[Beri]

Better add the footage. Makes it clearer who was at fault:

Hamilton vs Albon
https://streamable.com/crvhdt

[FullOppositeLock]

A BS penalty. Albon was just over optimistic. It's up the the overtaking driver to ensure they can execute the move without undue contact. There's this idiotic idea that Hamilton should just have waved Albon through, which I completely don't get.

Oh well, it is what it is.

Please tell me this is sarcasm..?

[smitten]

I don't get why the question 'Who was to blame' is asked because the FIA stewards already decided who was at fault so there is no question that it's Lewis. Or do people here claim they know it better as the stewards (including a former F1 driver)?

 

I don't think we can have too much faith in the stewards being infallible - they've already been wrong once in the no penalty/penalty debacle from earlier.

[goldenboy]

Wasn't that bad. No complaints with it being a 5 sec penalty or a racing incident.

Probably leaning towards a penalty though.

Edited by goldenboy, 05 July 2020 - 15:21.

[Ivanhoe]

Hamilton's fault but I'm not sure if he deserved a penalty for it. He was careless and should have given room.

Isn’t a penalty always warranted when a driver is predominantly to blame for a collision?

[Atreiu]

This aversion to wheel to wheel racing and contact is horrendous and makes me question how sterile some people want F1 to be.

[Gareth]

Just watched it back and paused at the point of contact. Albon has space to his left even before the curb, he’s not even on it.

Silly this was a penalty IMO. Hamilton left him room, he didn’t use it, pretty clear racing incident.

[beachdrifter]

5 seconds penalty is nothing if you have a top car like a Mercedes since you can build up a gap in a couple of laps with a dominant car.

 

Maybe you should watch the race then. And the results. 

[SophieB]

Penalties in F1 are ridiculous these days, it always used to be a stop & go penatly in the '90s and early 2000s. 5 seconds penalty is nothing if you have a top car like a Mercedes since you can build up a gap in a couple of laps with a dominant car.

 

I don't get why the question 'Who was to blame' is asked because the FIA stewards already decided who was at fault so there is no question that it's Lewis. Or do people here claim they know it better as the stewards (including a former F1 driver)?

Are you honestly finding it baffling that viewers don’t always agree with the stewards? 

[TomNokoe]

Racing incident but these long, wide, heavy cars really do inhibit racing.

[EndlessMotion]

Di Resta talking sense. It's a penalty for Lewis simply because Albon was ahead when there was contact. Lewis maintains his steering input, he's not driting out and squeezing Alex of space. Basically a racing incident but as Alex had greater speed was ahead at the moment of contact.

 

It's a really low level incident though, nothing nasty going on just a coming together with two cars on different tyres at the business end of the race. Alex will rightly feel hard done by but he'll also know he could have easily won that race if he had more patience to pick the Mercedes off with less risk.

[gillesfan76]

Unfortunately it's not overhead footage, but look at 8 seconds on here https://streamable.com/crvhdt

 

Albon clearly has something like half a car's width to the outside kerb at the moment his rear wheel makes contact with Lewis' front wheel. Also note that the contact was not tyre sidewall to sidewall, but rather the much better drive Albon got caused his rear tyre to drive into Lewis' front tyre while their wheels were interlocked.

 

To me it's a racing incident. If Albon was completely to the outside and left Lewis enough room as is Albon's responsibility as the overtaking car, then I would agree with the penalty. However Albon could have moved further to the outside to reduce risk. He would have still won the corner because he just had so much more grip evidenced by the superior drive he got on the exit. Racing incident caused by Albon not using the track width.

[Huffer]

Better add the footage. Makes it clearer who was at fault:

 

Yup, you can clearly see Albon was over ambitious with that. You can't expect cars to just jump out of your way. Albon clearly has more room to his left, with he simply didn't use. He just tried to turn in when there was another car in the way. 

Edited by Huffer, 05 July 2020 - 15:22.

[Clatter]

Totally Hamilton's fault and a penalty was totally deserved. Personally I don't agree with the time penalties, they often turn out to be a non-punishment.

[Atreiu]

Better add the footage. Makes it clearer who was at fault:

 

Pause it the moment of contact to see there were metres between Hamilton and the while line, nevermind the kerb and green strip. Albon got it wrong and turned in too soon.

[MasterOfCoin]

Better add the footage. Makes it clearer who was at fault:

Still a racing incident.....if Albon had shown the same restraint Lewis had on Lap 1 they would not have crashed.....

[MaxisOne]

Isn’t a penalty always warranted when a driver is predominantly to blame for a collision?

 

No not in all cases its not that cut and dry.

[Laster]

Hamilton’s fault in my opinion, Albon was ahead he had completely earned the right to be there. I’m not really sure how much Hamilton could have done to avoid it though, on corner exit he was commited to his line, and on worn tires he couldn’t keep the car tighter on the exit. But in the end it was him who went into Albon and cost Albon a chance for a win, a chance for a podium, and a chance for points.

[PayasYouRace]

Isn’t a penalty always warranted when a driver is predominantly to blame for a collision?

 

I generally only think penalties are appropriate for very poor judgement or intentional acts. Lewis misjudged it and it was entirely on him but I don't know if it's enough for a penalty.

[Joefane]

Albon definitely not to blame, he drove clean around the outside and held his line. Properly on the fence between pinning it on Lewis or as a racing incident.

 

Realistically, we don't know what Lewis could've done in his situation (not a lot of time to react, worn tyres), and he doesn't move his steering wheel left when in the motion of steering the car. Could he have steered more or was he trying to force Alex wider to get himself a better line, thus having more chance to not losing the place? Not sure if this can really be proven so its difficult to put all blame on him, but as a racing driver I feel that is probably what he was trying to do. He's so experienced that he must have known that there was no point fighting it, Alex was streets ahead on pace.

 

Gave us a brilliant ending though, plus sets up what should be a good 2 (or maybe 3 ) way championship fight.

[Spillage]

Better add the footage. Makes it clearer who was at fault:

Thanks. Have now edited the OP.

[mclara]

Clearly a racing incident. HAM still turning hard to the right when they hit, Albon still has space on his side and HAM is not understeering. Normal racing line

[Marklar]

Isn’t a penalty always warranted when a driver is predominantly to blame for a collision?

In theory it is, but let's be honest: do we really think that every time there is no further action the blame is exactly 50-50?

[gillesfan76]

Just watched it back and paused at the point of contact. Albon has space to his left even before the curb, he’s not even on it.

Silly this was a penalty IMO. Hamilton left him room, he didn’t use it, pretty clear racing incident.

 

Yes this is exactly how I see it too, it's very clear on that streamable link. I would like to see it from overhead but it was clear enough.

[Gareth]

Pause it the moment of contact to see there were metres between Hamilton and the while line, nevermind the kerb and green strip.

Pic here if of interest https://imgur.com/4zrKttt

 

[Tiakumosan]

I'm still unsure. Any videos from Albon's onboard?

[Asterion]

Albon definitely not to blame, he drove clean around the outside and held his line. Properly on the fence between pinning it on Lewis or as a racing incident.

 

Realistically, we don't know what Lewis could've done in his situation (not a lot of time to react, worn tyres), and he doesn't move his steering wheel left when in the motion of steering the car. Could he have steered more or was he trying to force Alex wider to get himself a better line, thus having more chance to not losing the place? Not sure if this can really be proven so its difficult to put all blame on him, but as a racing driver I feel that is probably what he was trying to do. He's so experienced that he must have known that there was no point fighting it, Alex was streets ahead on pace.

 

Gave us a brilliant ending though, plus sets up what should be a good 2 (or maybe 3 ) way championship fight.

Lewis was already at full lock. Couldn't have steered more. Could have braked I guess, but I suspect not a lot of drivers would do so in his shoes.

[squarewun]

Lewis knew better and backed off on the 1st lap incident against Albon. Here it was so marginal, I think he was surprised they touched. Unfortunate but mostly a race incident.

[Ivanhoe]

Just watched it back and paused at the point of contact. Albon has space to his left even before the curb, he’s not even on it.

Silly this was a penalty IMO. Hamilton left him room, he didn’t use it, pretty clear racing incident.

Hamilton left Albon enough room to compromise his line, while Hamilton took the ideal line. Lewis is a smart driver and I’m sure he deliberately chose a wider line than necessary (i.e. he didn’t want his line to be compromised) and took the risk of a contact or expected Albon to back off. Just a bit of power and a statement that you’re gonna overtake him on the outside. Verstappen got a comparable lesson in China a couple of years ago. I think Lewis deserved a penalty, but I also think Albon learned something today. 

[andyscoot]

I'm fine with a 5s penalty but could have easily been deemed a racing incident. Playing devil's advocate though;

Was it any different to the "incident" on L1 where Hamilton was forced to back out of the move despite being ahead?

Where do we stand on the Verstappen overtake on Leclerc last year? Leclerc was forced off the track on corner exit. If the contact was slightly different and if there was gravel on the outside it could have easily put Charles in last position rather than P2.