48 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

No disrespect to Hulkenberg who is a perfectly fine driver, but RP have two reserve drivers in Vandoorne and Gutierrez. What are they for if not for circumstances like this?

[FLB]

Money.

[chrcol]

For testing on simulator?

 

I imagine drivers get told they reserve, so they sign contract, but with no intention of them getting in the race seat.

[PayasYouRace]

Absolutely. It winds me up no end that the teams have official reserve drivers and then aren't used in that capacity. Call them development drivers or whatever if they're not intending to use them.

[Spillage]

I guess it's just an opportunity for the teams to make a bit of cash by selling an 'official' reserve driver seat. 

 

I'm not complaining; I'd much rather have Hulkenberg than Gutierrez, and a driver like Hulkenberg would be very unlikely to sign up as a reserve driver before the season begins. The only loser is Esteban. 

[Dalin80]

Teams should be banned from bringing in non-declared drivers. List the spare drivers at the start of the season, they are the ones you can use and they must have seat fittings and x kilometers in the car.

[Myrvold]

No disrespect to Hulkenberg who is a perfectly fine driver, but RP have two reserve drivers in Vandoorne and Gutierrez. What are they for if not for circumstances like this?

Vandoorne wouldnt be able due to FE.
However I agree with Gutierrez. Just like I wanted to see Valsecchi in for Räikkönen at Lotus. Little kid me found it cool to see Salo in Ferrari, but adult me feels really bad for Badoer.

[SophieB]

For testing on simulator?

 

I imagine drivers get told they reserve, so they sign contract, but with no intention of them getting in the race seat.

isn’t test/simulator driver a separate thing?

[Knowlesy]

Absolutely. It winds me up no end that the teams have official reserve drivers and then aren't used in that capacity. Call them development drivers or whatever if they're not intending to use them.

Does it really wind you up though?

I have always looked at reserve drivers as guys contracted just in case they can't source a really good replacement tbh.

[Fastcake]

A lot of them are really simulator drivers. Having a few drivers signed in addition to your race drivers means you can run them every day while they can continue in a race seat elsewhere. In the past they probably would have called them test drivers - of which there were quite a few who never got to test the cars either.

 

Some are also paying to be there in some form of affiliated role. I don't really know how that's meant to work or what they get out of it. I guess they sometimes get to run the F1 teams colours in feeder formula, so there's obviously some financial benefit somewhere.

 

I believe there's usually one always hanging around every race weekend, usually covering a few teams (e.g the Red Bulls or Mercedes customers), in case there's no one else available and a team just needs someone in the car.

[uzsjgb]

Money.

 

Right. 

 

Reserve drivers are so seldomly needed, that it would make no sense paying someone like Hülkenberg millions to sit around. On the other hand you do need a driver under contract as a reserve, in case he is needed. Otherwise you may end up with no reserve driver at all.

 

The misconception is that people think reserve drivers are reserves for the race drivers. They are not. They are reserves in case the race driver cannot race - and nobody more qualified can be found. I see nothing wrong with continuing to call them reserve drivers.

[PlatenGlass]

For testing on simulator?

I imagine drivers get told they reserve, so they sign contract, but with no intention of them getting in the race seat.

I wonder how much simulator testing actually helps a team.

[fifi]

maybe going forward teams need to make sure their reserve drivers can actually well drive ie make sure they have a superlicence  - i think this weekend will make a lot of teams look at what their options are and potentially reevaluate

[Kalmake]

I wonder how much simulator testing actually helps a team.

Sim driving at the factory is a crucial part of the weekend program.

[PlatenGlass]

Sim driving at the factory is a crucial part of the weekend program.

Sure, but what does it do for a team? Can the physics and the accuracy of the simulation of the track etc. really be accurate enough for it to significantly help set-up?

Edited by PlatenGlass, 02 August 2020 - 17:43.

[Kalmake]

Sure, but what does it do for a team? Can the physics and the accuracy of the simulation of the track etc. really be accurate enough for it to significantly help set-up?

Absolutely. They get data from the track, apply it to the sim and drive all night.

 

https://www.thecheck...r-driver-in-f1/

[Spillage]

Teams should be banned from bringing in non-declared drivers. List the spare drivers at the start of the season, they are the ones you can use and they must have seat fittings and x kilometers in the car.

Why? I don't see any reason to restrict the teams in this way. I'd like to see the strongest available drivers stand in when required. Chances are these drivers are racing in other series and are unlikely to be available to be reserve drivers full-time.

This would have meant Gutierrez had stood in instead of Hulkenberg. Would anybody actually rather have seen Esteban get another chance than Nico?

[PayasYouRace]

Does it really wind you up though?

I have always looked at reserve drivers as guys contracted just in case they can't source a really good replacement tbh.

 

Yes it really does wind me up. Their job description implies that they're there to step in when one of the main drivers is unable to race. But the teams usually look elsewhere when that happens. So what's the point?

[Anderis]

Teams should be banned from bringing in non-declared drivers.

And that would make F1 a better thing in what way?
 

[SophieB]

Why? I don't see any reason to restrict the teams in this way. I'd like to see the strongest available drivers stand in when required. Chances are these drivers are racing in other series and are unlikely to be available to be reserve drivers full-time.

This would have meant Gutierrez had stood in instead of Hulkenberg. Would anybody actually rather have seen Esteban get another chance than Nico?

Personally no, but then I wondered why they have him as a reserve driver at all if his team feel the same way.

[BRG]

And that would make F1 a better thing in what way?
 

More restrictive rules are always a good thing. 

[Jordan44]

Some teams use their reserve drivers for the Sims, others don't. Like Anthony Davidson would never get to drive the Merc but he's the one who does all the work for Mercedes. Before that it was George Russell though. So really it's just handy to have these drivers around the team.

Edited by Jordan44, 02 August 2020 - 18:18.

[Knowlesy]

Yes it really does wind me up. Their job description implies that they're there to step in when one of the main drivers is unable to race. But the teams usually look elsewhere when that happens. So what's the point?

The actual reserve drivers seem to care less than this.

[Kalmake]

The actual reserve drivers seem to care less than this.

Definitely because they don't exist.

[Anderis]

This thread is a great example of how people tend to blow something completely harmless out of proportion nowadays and make it a problem when it should be not.

 

As far as I can recall, reserve drivers were the ones to replace race drivers when they were needed more often than not in recent past. Di Resta was a reserve driver for Williams in 2017 when he replaced Massa for one race. Button was a reserve driver for McLarein in 2017 when he replaced Alonso for one race. Vandoorne was McLaren's reserve driver when he replaced Alonso for one race in 2016. D'Ambrosio was Lotus' reserve driver when he replaced Grosjean for one race in 2012. All it took was one instance when something different happened and now suddenly "what is the point of F1 teams having reserve drivers?".

 

The reason it has not been the case this time is that someone as good as Hulkenberg was without a race seat this year, which should probably never happen in the first place, but I can't see any negative things in the fact he was brought in, as he was by far the most qualified F1 driver without a permanent F1 race seat in 2020.

[danmills]

Reserved not to race. Nobody knows what the contract says!

[jondon]

Basically, it looks like a reserve driver gets a free pair of overalls, a few free caps, maybe a free watch from a sponsor and the odd jolly to a grand prix. Perhaps the team may even let them try out their glorified playstation at the factory. Perhaps some teams do not only have "pay" drivers but also "pay" reserve drivers.  

[William Hunt]

reserve drivers used to be very seriously hired & used by F1 teams, in particular in the '90s and early 2000s when they were testing a huge amount of mileage per year and the teams not only intended to use them as reserve drivers but also wanted to prepare them in case they wanted to later promote them to race driver and that often happened. 

But test / reserve driver lost it's value since teams are not allowed to test anymore (apart from winter testing) but that doesn't meant that someone who is today hired as reserve driver isn't going to be called up for it. I'm sure that if a Williams driver becomes ill that Williams will use Jack Aitken as a replacement for the race and I'm sure Mercedes would do the same with Vandoorne or Red Bull with Sette Camara and Renault probably with Sirotkin as well. But it also depends on the context: let's say Renault needs a last minute replacement just for 1 weekend then they could use Sirotkin because he has F1 experience but if they needed a replacement for several races or the rest of the season they probably will look at other options and wisely choose whom to pick.

[Myrvold]

Some teams use their reserve drivers for the Sims, others don't. Like Anthony Davidson would never get to drive the Merc but he's the one who does all the work for Mercedes. Before that it was George Russell though. So really it's just handy to have these drivers around the team.

 

Davidson is not a reserve driver though. Quite a few teams have many drivers involved, but they differentiate between test/dev and reserve drivers.

 

As far as I can recall, reserve drivers were the ones to replace race drivers when they were needed more often than not in recent past. Di Resta was a reserve driver for Williams in 2017 when he replaced Massa for one race. Button was a reserve driver for McLarein in 2017 when he replaced Alonso for one race. Vandoorne was McLaren's reserve driver when he replaced Alonso for one race in 2016. D'Ambrosio was Lotus' reserve driver when he replaced Grosjean for one race in 2012. All it took was one instance when something different happened and now suddenly "what is the point of F1 teams having reserve drivers?"

 

I like how you use 2012 with D'Ambrosio as an example. When Lotus didn't go for their reserve driver when Kubica got injured in 2011, nor when Räikkönen didn't do the last two races in 2013.

However, you are correct in that reserve drivers usually gets the chance, it still feels weird when they don't though.

[chrcol]

isn’t test/simulator driver a separate thing?

They have test drivers, but I expect reserve drivers also do it as well?

 

Also as someone else pointed out are reserve drivers "pay" drivers? so they bring in income?

[Spillage]

According to Andrew Benson Gutierrez doesn't even have a super licence: https://twitter.com/...6461083648?s=19

Gawd knows what his sponsors thought they were buying when they put the money up for his reserve drive role!

[BRG]

Didn't Hulkenberg have to get a superlicence specially for last weekend?  It was one of the many things he had to arrange at very short notice.  Presumably Gutierrez could get one in the same way  as a former F1 driver?

[Kalmake]

Didn't Hulkenberg have to get a superlicence specially for last weekend?  It was one of the many things he had to arrange at very short notice.  Presumably Gutierrez could get one in the same way  as a former F1 driver?

There's a substantial fee... something like 10k. Maybe Hulk just needed to do that.

 

Driver that has been out of F1 for three years or longer needs to drive 300km in an F1 car to qualify again. This is a new rule introduced last year.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Hulkenberg is a few races behind so still qualifies, Gutierrez is seasons out of date. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

ps making sure your paperwork is in order is Racing Driver 101. Either Mercedes is incompetent, Gutierrez is incompetent, or Mercedes is incompetent again for having him as their reserve. Would they be as sloppy in any other detail in their team?

[absinthedude]

I would think that officially a reserve driver is employed to take over if a regular race driver is unable to take part in a race weekend or a planned test. This role was historically undertaken by the teams' official test driver(s) back when testing was more freely permitted. Sadly it was also more common for reserves to be needed in days when drivers were more often hurt sufficiently to miss a race, or worse. 

 

These days test/reserve drivers don't normally have much to do once February testing is done with. So the position seems either be given to someone with bags of money or who is great at simulator work. They might also be used for media appearances, but generally it's not a very attractive job seeing as they need to be available at short notice which means they can't really race in another series. Or, commitments to other series means they're not available at very short notice for F1 duties. 

 

I can only assume Guitierrez comes with the aforementioned bags of money, because he did nothing in F1 to justify any kind of continuing employment. Vandoorne I personally feel similarly about but he did score a few points so he might have some appeal for sim work. 

 

It's a strange position now. Someone like Hulk would have probably stepped into a test/reserve post in the past. Whereas now it seems the official reserve drivers often aren't really up to it, and teams will look elsewhere.

[milestone 11]

Didn't Hulkenberg have to get a superlicence specially for last weekend?  It was one of the many things he had to arrange at very short notice.  Presumably Gutierrez could get one in the same way  as a former F1 driver?

Apparently, Gutierrez doesn't qualify currently. He'd need to do a 300km test to do so, which Mercedes are not considering.

[Myrvold]

Apparently, Gutierrez doesn't qualify currently. He'd need to do a 300km test to do so, which Mercedes are not considering.

 

 

The Brackley team has indicated that Gutierrez won't have a chance to log the necessary mileage by replacing one of its race drivers on a race weekend Friday.

It is looking for an opportunity to give him a run, potentially in its 2018 car, as used by Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas for pre-season running at Silverstone.

 

Seems like they are thinking about it?

[Jellyfishcake]

I think Mercedes never assumed Gutierrez would be needed, if anything happens to Bottas/Hamilton then it'll be Vandoorne who steps up, even if it clashed with FE.

 

The difference here is Racing Point don't actually have a reserve driver (although access to Merc ones) so they've not locked themselves in, they are able to get the best free driver (Hulk) in at short notice. 

 

Also with McLaren do they have an agreement to use Merc drivers as well? (So ignoring this weekend with Di Resta I suspect Vandoorne would be first choice for them at any other event as the FE season will be over) 

[Fastcake]

I’m just disappointed McLaren wouldn’t pick Button again.

Though doesn’t he still have a five place grid penalty from monaco to serve?

[Victor]

The answer to the OP is simple: Vandoorne was not available due to FE and Gutierrez would require a 300 km test which was not going to happen. So, in this particular case, there is nothing to complain about Racing Point not using their reserve drivers and picking Hülkenberg instead.

However, it is true that there is a general tendency to appoint reserve drivers with no intention to use them.

[pacificquay]

I see it as reserve drivers are there so that if, once the weekend is rolling, your driver becomes ill or injured you can slot the reserve in.

 

If you know about the vacancy before any action, like with Perez, you grab the best driver available.

[flatoutflatbroke]

 

However, it is true that there is a general tendency to appoint reserve drivers with no intention to use them.

Yes, which then makes them entirely unprepared when something does happen and clearly any of the F1 drivers could be diagnosed with Covid at any time, this is not something teams can micro manage, when drivers leave the circuit at the end of the weekend nobody knows how 100% careful they are 100% of the time. Just makes sense to have a proper and prepared reserve driver - actually taking learnings from this year it is something the FIA could insist on allow some specific test days for reserve drivers only or stipulate they had to take part in x number of FP1 sessions per year to remain sharp/fit and up to speed with the cars systems in real life. Instead of teams seeing them as a cash cow to basically sell very expensive team gear and a paddock pass to....

[absinthedude]

Button doesn't want to do any more F1. He's said so on many occasions. He didn't really want to do Monaco 2017.

 

Gutierrez isn't good enough, and as we also know his license is out of date. Merc have no interest in giving him the required 300km because they have no intention of putting him in a race car...nor do the other teams who "have access" to the Merc reserve drivers. Presumably once Vandoorne is done with FE they'd consider him.

[r4mses]

I see it as reserve drivers are there so that if, once the weekend is rolling, your driver becomes ill or injured you can slot the reserve in.

 

If you know about the vacancy before any action, like with Perez, you grab the best driver available.

 

I agree. A 'real reserve driver' should be ready to jump in right away - i. e. he has a valid super licence and is not busy racing elsewhere. 

[NixxxoN]

They become pointless if a better driver like Hulk is available

[BRG]

I agree. A 'real reserve driver' should be ready to jump in right away - i. e. he has a valid super licence and is not busy racing elsewhere. 

Except why would a 'real reserve driver' want the job of sitting in the garage for 20+ races, nursing his pointless Superlicence and never getting the chance to drive?  How many regular drivers had to miss a race over the last few years?  Massa?  Who else?

[f1paul]

Except why would a 'real reserve driver' want the job of sitting in the garage for 20+ races, nursing his pointless Superlicence and never getting the chance to drive?  How many regular drivers had to miss a race over the last few years?  Massa?  Who else?

Massa and Alonso (twice) are the only ones in the turbo-hybrid era that I can recall

[Bleu]

Wehrlein lost two races following his ROC crash.

Edited by Bleu, 07 August 2020 - 13:47.