144 replies to this topic

[Hellenic tifosi]

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with breaking the tow.

[JeePee]

Breaking the tow is not reactionary and perfectly fine. You then actually move out of the trajectory of the guy behind, instead of getting inside the trajectory again.

[MJB5990]

Anyone else thinking that Lewis moved quite late vs max as well?

 

He did a bit.

 

However, the circumstances weren't the same. Max wasn't overtaking as close to Lewis as Fernando was to Lance so Lewis' move was a little bit safer. I'd also argue Stroll's was worse because Alonso and him were both accelerating towards top speed whereas Lewis and Max were breaking heavily for a 90-degree corner. 

[Spillage]

I thought Stroll's driving deserves rather more than a three place grid drop. That was stupidly dangerous.

[smitten]

I thought Stroll's driving deserves rather more than a three place grid drop. That was stupidly dangerous.

He's started 119 GPs!  He really should know better, but nearly every time he has a collision I'm left thinking "Why did he move like that?".  Like Australia this year, for instance...

[Rumblestrip]

Mindblowing comment of Stroll

 

Good grief

[Stephan]

He did a bit.

However, the circumstances weren't the same. Max wasn't overtaking as close to Lewis as Fernando was to Lance so Lewis' move was a little bit safer. I'd also argue Stroll's was worse because Alonso and him were both accelerating towards top speed whereas Lewis and Max were breaking heavily for a 90-degree corner.

Definitely agree, Stroll's move was way worse!
Perez indeed was also very late like someone mentioned.

[Clrnc]

There's a difference of moving at high speed and moving during braking. Of course both are wrong (as was Perez and Hamilton), but Stroll one was way more dangerous and something we havent seen in F1 for quite awhile now (Since Kubica accident?). 

 

Needs a big punishment and clamping down

[Clrnc]

Mindblowing comment of Stroll

Like I said, he's as thick as they come and because of that, will always be a danger to others on track. He don't even understand what he did wrong

[mhno1f]

Alonso did leave it very late before he pulled out the slipsteam - compared to other overtakes we saw on that straight. But that was likely because DRS wasn't on at the time (if i remember correctly).  But at best, that's only a slight mitigating factor.  A race ban would never happen, but as he has previous - should have had 3 points on his licence (does it ever go above 3? 3s are damn rare anyway)

 

If Alonso wasn't his new team mate next year, he would have torn into him.

[KnucklesAgain]

Alonso did leave it very late before he pulled out the slipsteam - compared to other overtakes we saw on that straight.

At least in part because Stroll was moving left simultaneously. In the ALO onboard it looks like ALO moved late and not very far, but in the front view on both cars you can see Stroll moving left by a car width the whole time

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 24 October 2022 - 09:57.

[Ivanhoe]

"Honestly, when you see the thing on the TV, I think it’s a racing incident to be honest,” said Alonso, who was given a post-race 30-second penalty which dropped him from seventh to 15th after a Haas protest which Alpine is appealing.

“We move basically at the same time to the left, and that was the trigger of everything. So I think it was a very unfortunate moment for everyone.”

The two drivers will race together at Aston Martin next season after Alonso signed a multi-year deal with the team at the end of August.

Alonso said that he and Stroll were “OK now in the stewards’ room” when discussing the incident, and that it was “more between our sporting directors than between us.”

“I think we saw the incident with the same eyes,” he added. “Our sporting directors, they see it with completely different eyes!”

Asked if he thought Stroll had moved a bit late to defend the position, Alonso replied: “Sure, but when you are at 300 [km/h], those movements, you know, one-tenth of a second, you move 200 metres.

“If it’s in slow motion and you move it frame by frame, he will move a little bit later than me. If you go normal speed, you see both cars more or less at the same time.

“That’s why after looking on TV, I think there’s nothing you can do differently.”

https://www.autospor...ident/10389687/

[TomNokoe]

In regards to Tomnokoe's thread title: "Reactionary defensive moves - time for the FIA to act?"

 

And remember I started this thread 2 years ago

 

If not now, when?!

[smitten]

 

https://www.autospor...ident/10389687/

 

Is Alonso finally learning tact?  That could be the news story here! 

 

"Driver doesn't make big deal of crash with son of owner of next year's drive"

[Alfisti]

I've always had a massive, massive hate on for any movement at all in situations like this. a) it is proper, roper dangerous and b) if you allow drivers to do it you make racing impossible. 

 

I'd have given Max in Baku and Stroll yesterday a race ban and i'd have given Bottas a grid penalty after Imola (the Russell incident). They need to pick and stick to a line when defending, take the inside or the outside, this swerving around is going to kill someone or end up with a car in the crowd. 

[Raest]

Stroll won't be the first to do that, irrespective of what Alonso said-I suspect he wouldn't want to call his employer's son an nitwit, and he won't be the last. Max has done it and Magnussen has done it and probably others too but those are the ones I can remember. And it's not moving under braking, which should be punishable as well or used to be at least, but blocking a car with large speed differential at 300km/h. Alonso was very very lucky not to have the car flip, I am surprised that it didn't actually,the rear wing may have stalled too, and land head down on the wall/fence. 

In general the stewardship has been all over the place again this year, different punishments (or lack thereof) for the same infractions often from one GP to the next, it's like they make the rules on the spot. 

Edited by Raest, 24 October 2022 - 13:30.

[messy]

I think the problem with Stroll, and the reason he deserves a ban, is that he’s done this so many times. He’s done it before, caused an accident, been criticised for it, and never learns. Something’s going wrong there. I don’t think, in isolation, it’s necessarily the crime of the century, as long as it’s learnt from. In the heat of the moment a driver mistimes a defensive move or makes one too late, as long as you have DRS down the straights it’s going to happen once in a while because that mismatch of speed between the car behind and the one ahead opens up the possibility that the defending driver mistimes their move once in a while and that it causes contact. It shouldn’t, but as long as the driver learns from it then I’m not really one for pushing really drastic penalties like race bans. But this is what Lance does.

[ANF]

And remember I started this thread 2 years ago
 
If not now, when?!

Well, they did act – with a 3-place grid drop.

[ensign14]

Someone is going to be first up against the wall on this. Lance would have been a good choice because he has a LOT of form and appears not to think there is any problem with it. Now it will have to wait for a much more serious outcome presumably.

 

Well, it's sobering to look at me eviscerating Grosjean on the first page of this thread, and a few weeks later he nearly got himself killed doing exactly the same thing.

 

And even that wasn't enough.

[Primo]

There's not much left of the driver conduct rules in the Sporting Regs

[ANF]

Stroll won't be the first to do that, irrespective of what Alonso said-I suspect he wouldn't want to call his employer's son an nitwit, and he won't be the last. Max has done it and Magnussen has done it and probably others too but those are the ones I can remember. And it's not moving under braking, which should be punishable as well or used to be at least, but blocking a car with large speed differential at 300km/h. Alonso was very very lucky not to have the car flip, I am surprised that it didn't actually,the rear wing may have stalled too, and land head down on the wall/fence. 
In general the stewardship has been all over the place again this year, different punishments (or lack thereof) for the same infractions often from one GP to the next, it's like they make the rules on the spot.

Verstappen and Magnussen did it on purpose (although Magnussen never said he did), and I believe they stopped doing it after being heavily criticised by other drivers (and Charlie Whiting).

I don't think Stroll did it on purpose; he made an error of judgement: he saw Alonso pull out of the slipstream but didn't realise how close he was or how fast he was approaching. Which is a little worrying because it's not the first time he has misjudged the distance to other cars around him.

[Makingtime]

Is Alonso finally learning tact?  That could be the news story here! 

 

"Driver doesn't make big deal of crash with son of owner of next year's drive"

 

To quote Gomer Pyle, Well, surprise, SURPRISE SURPRISE

Edited by Makingtime, 24 October 2022 - 14:35.

[gillesfan76]

Is Alonso finally learning tact?  That could be the news story here! 

 

"Driver doesn't make big deal of crash with son of owner of next year's drive"

 

We’ll see about tact if Stroll ends up genuinely challenging Alonso next season. Can’t imagine it happening but Stroll can steer and Alonso is no longer a spring chicken, even if he doesn’t quite realise it. Hope he saved some toys.

Edited by gillesfan76, 24 October 2022 - 16:37.

[RekF1]

Intentionally trying to not understand? If a car that you are going marginally faster than, if faster at all. Starts to weave to "break the tow" or similar bs-excuse. That is multiple moves to defend, and not allowed. However, it is predictable, and you know how to act in regards to this.
If you are going quicker than the guy ahead, closes up, moves to make a move, and then, in reaction to this, the car ahead starts to move, it is a different situation. Often in relation to speed difference, but also in terms of danger.

It's the same as if a car is moving from one side of the track, towards the other, before any other car has started to move, and in the middle of the move from one side to the other, starts to brake due to the upcoming corner, that is not the same as heading straight in to braking zone, see someone making a move, and then move under braking. One is following a recognizable, stable pattern one can act around, the other is unpredictable and dangerous.

I wasn't trying not to understand, and I know that yesterday Stroll reacted to Alonso. My point is that Bottas had to react and take avoiding action against Alonso in Canada. I don't agree that there's a clear difference between both moves. I strongly agree that yesterday's move was awful, but it's happened many times before and I'm unsure which rule was broken because it was one change of direction before the braking zone, and Alonso want alongside when it happened. We saw Lewis do the same, we've seen Max, Perez, Leclerc do the same.

I'm only saying it's unfair to **** on Stroll under the current broken system. I'm not attacking Alonso if that's what you're suggesting.

Edited by RekF1, 24 October 2022 - 17:30.

[Sterzo]

Is Alonso finally learning tact?  That could be the news story here! 

 

"Driver doesn't make big deal of crash with son of owner of next year's drive"

I was so disappointed he didn't say Lance's move was the act of a son-of-a-dick.

[MikeTekRacing]

looking at the video - Stroll moved a few tenths after Alonso moved. 
I don't know if that's really reactionary - I don't think you have time to physically react like that. He probably made the decision to move before Alonso actually moved, but after Alonso made the decision to move (if that makes sense).

In execution, indeed, he moved later and maybe deserved a penalty for that. Race ban is too drastic.

Looked similar to Perez and Gasly at Portimao(?) when Checo did get some penalty even if they didn't touch each other

[P123]

Lance has a lot of previous for not really being aware of what is behind him.  He clearly moved too late, and far too far, and didn't leave Alonso much space, nor time to react, despite whatever he said post-race.  From the video, Fernando did appear to straighten up, and marginally turn back to the right as Lance made his move.  Likely a reaction to the bumps, but I think that also pulled him, marginally, like a magnet to the moving roadblock headed into his path.

 

[MikeTekRacing]

Lance has a lot of previous for not really being aware of what is behind him.  He clearly moved too late, and far too far, and didn't leave Alonso much space, nor time to react, despite whatever he said post-race.  From the video, Fernando did appear to straighten up, and marginally turn back to the right as Lance made his move.  Likely a reaction to the bumps, but I think that also pulled him, marginally, like a magnet to the moving roadblock headed into his path.

 

he does have a history of driving like an arse.

Yesterday it was a bit of a perfect storm. Moved late and Fernando made his move very late. Stroll to blame, but that's about it. 

[RekF1]

he does have a history of driving like an arse.
Yesterday it was a bit of a perfect storm. Moved late and Fernando made his move very late. Stroll to blame, but that's about it.

He was having a great race until then. I know drivers like Paul di Resta or bottas make a good living out of being meek, but it's not set in stone.

[MikeTekRacing]

The more I watch, the less I believe it could have been reactionary. Late, stupid - yes, but no way in hell he reacts to Alonso moving there.

Just bad timing from both (and Stroll for moving THAT late, even if he didn't get to see Alonso's move0

[gillesfan76]

The more I watch, the less I believe it could have been reactionary. Late, stupid - yes, but no way in hell he reacts to Alonso moving there.

Just bad timing from both (and Stroll for moving THAT late, even if he didn't get to see Alonso's move0

 

Maybe reactionary isn’t giving the full picture and possibly the correct word could be predictive? I don’t believe it was merely bad timing. Stroll knew Alonso was coming up quickly behind him. Stroll doesn’t move for no reason. He knows Alonso will eventually have to go around him and Stroll predicts that Alonso will go left and moves to block him. It’s just very dangerous. He’s trying to block Alonso’s path and make him brake but leaves it all a bit late. From Alonso’s perspective, he is leaving it late as possible because he doesn’t want to give Stroll the opportunity to react to his move and defend against it.

 

I think 100% Stroll’s fault, he thought he knew what he was doing but hadn’t considered that Alonso would have no time to react.

[KnucklesAgain]

That's what you get for not giving Stroll a ban last time

[Clrnc]

That's what you get for not giving Stroll a ban last time

Was thinking exactly the same. Guy is a complete idiot and dumb crap. So dangerous to other drivers.

[krapmeister]

Pretty crazy that Gasly is on the verge of a race ban, yet considering the moves Stroll is prone to pull he isn't the one under threat

Edited by krapmeister, 13 November 2022 - 01:50.

[AustinF1]

Yeah. There is something fundamentally perverse about the fact somebody can do what Stroll did and get effectively a slap on the wrist, but it's the innocent bystander who went airborne who is held the higher standard when it comes to "dangerous".

 

 

Edit: Indeed, Stroll gets a lenient penalty for being dangerous, while Alonso gets a significantly more severe penalty for his car being potentially dangerous. Where is the joined-up thinking in all this?

 

There is none, and yeah Jacques was 100% right. Lance needs a timeout. If he keeps getting slaps on the wrist, he'll eventually murder someone on the track.

[Sterzo]

That Brazilian move should result in a black flag and parking it. Change of rules / penalties, please.

[pUs]

There is none, and yeah Jacques was 100% right. Lance needs a timeout. If he keeps getting slaps on the wrist, he'll eventually murder someone on the track.

Agree. I still don't know if it was completely intended, over and over again he just seems to lack situational awareness. He just doesn't seem to develop at all in this regard. It will end very badly one day.

[Muppetmad]

Stroll's giving the FIA lots of opportunities to take this seriously. Alas...

[flyboym3]

I thought this was a candidate that the Stewards did not spot: Russell on Max Brazil sprint race 2022.

 

 

George fully lined up:

 

George moves first:

 

George continues overtake move, Max is still dead-on - cannot see his rear tyres yet:

 

Max starts to react - you can now see the yellow sidewall on his rear tyres demonstrating steering movement:

 

George see's whats unfolding - starts the cut back which I think is as a result of Max late move:

 

Max straightens up again as George switches back:

[geralt]

Literally everyone does that... Sainz did it to Hamilton yesterday as well, Hamilton did it to Max in Austin, Leclerc has done it to Max, Max has done it to Leclerc, Alonso to Hamilton, Russell to Max in Spain etc

 

As long as it's not super late and it gives the driver behind time to respond, I see no issue

[gillesfan76]

I thought this was a candidate that the Stewards did not spot: Russell on Max Brazil sprint race 2022.

 

 

George fully lined up:

 

George moves first:

 

George continues overtake move, Max is still dead-on - cannot see his rear tyres yet:

 

Max starts to react - you can now see the yellow sidewall on his rear tyres demonstrating steering movement:

 

George see's whats unfolding - starts the cut back which I think is as a result of Max late move:

 

Max straightens up again as George switches back:

 

The problem with this longitudinal perspective is that it doesn’t show the distance between Russell and Verstappen. If Russell was too close to Verstappen, then sure it’s very dangerous and a reactive move made too late. But if Russell dummied early, Verstappen reacted and Russell had enough time to jink to the right and make the dummy work without having to lift, as it seems to be the case here then it proves that Max’s reaction wasn’t dangerously late.

 

You will need the onboards from either Russell or the overheads to prove if it was dangerous.

[Primo]

I think Verstappens moves was perfectly okay yesterday, he never moved into a line that the trailing car had committed to. IMHO, as long as the moves you do are reasonably predictable and you give the opponent an alternative that is something other than stepping on the brakes or going off track, it is okay. There were moves from other drivers that was worse though, clearly reactive moves that forced the other car to brake to avoid tears.

[AustinF1]

Breaking the tow is not reactionary and perfectly fine. You then actually move out of the trajectory of the guy behind, instead of getting inside the trajectory again.

Yep, and that's not what Stroll did in either case. You don't move to break the tow when a car is approaching very quickly and is very close behind you.

[RazF1]

Thought Max did great defending yesterday, the type of defending that leads to fascinating edge of the seat fights we want to see.

[pacificquay]

Stroll needs a ban of several races.

 

Look at Irvine in 1994.