241 replies to this topic

[Risil]

So Toto Wolff has been giving interviews saying that his team, Mercedes, have not yet signed up for the new iteration of the Concorde Agreement, which among other things sets down Formula One's financial and political structure.
 
By Toto's own account a lot of it is about money, but there's a note of bitterness in Wolff's comments too.

 

https://www.autospor...corde-agreement
 

"We from Mercedes, we made very clear that we are happy with a more equitable split of the prize fund," Wolff said. "The way success is rewarded and possible for everybody, we agree to.

"We are, I would say, the biggest victim in terms of prize fund loss in all of that. Ferrari has maintained an advantageous position. With Red Bull, it obviously balances out with AlphaTauri. So it's us that are hurt the most.

"I feel that Mercedes has contributed to the sport over the last years. We have apart from being competitive on-track, we have the driver that has clearly the most global appeal.

"We feel that whilst being in those negotiations, we weren't treated in the way we should have been.

"Therefore there is a bunch of open topics for us that are legal, commercial, and sporting.

"In our point of view, I don't feel ready to sign a Concorde Agreement."

 
Ferrari, McLaren and Williams are all happy to sign the accord. The current deadline for getting all teams onboard is Wednesday, 12 August. No one is ruling out or ruling in Mercedes not signing and leaving the sport at the end of the year, but stranger things have happened. Better hurry up, guys!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Mercedes benefits from their domination more than F1 does, do they refund some of the money if they make it boring? Shut up and sign. 

[PayasYouRace]

If they don't want to play, they can leave. I'm sure Lewis won't have a problem taking his global appeal elsewhere either.

[Broekschaap]

I think it is debatable whether Bottas is the driver that clearly has the most global appeal or not. But on a more serious note: hard to say if he is right or wrong concerning a secret agreement. But I don't think they will leave.

[SophieB]

Mercedes benefits from their domination more than F1 does, do they refund some of the money if they make it boring? Shut up and sign. 

I don’t pretend to know a damn thing about marketing so at what point (if ever, I guess) have they squeezed all the exposure/improvement in perception of the brand that they’re going to have by being in F1?  Or do they keep going because of stuff like that example of the toothpaste company who reckoned they didn’t need to keep doing adverts because they were number one in the market (and then saw sales plummet).

 

Or to put it another way, is the spending on 7 or more WDCS delivering significantly more than 6?

[UncleSam]

This is about power: Toto wants same position in F1 as Ferrari and he's obviously not getting it. Maybe Daimler wants to call it a day and wont sign any way. Toto can have the team and call it AM and have RP as junior team.

[Hakki069]

Im personally of the opinion F1 wouldn't be sad to see Mercedes leave. It would definitely bring the grid closer.

But if F1 really valued Mercedes that much they would of offered them a better deal from the start surely.

But like been said above Mercedes get alot of payback from there domination of F1 weather its as much as it was before I dunno.

Does anyone know what happens if Mercedes or any team doesn't sign on Wednesday means?

[f1paul]

Negotiating tactics?

[SophieB]

Im personally of the opinion F1 wouldn't be sad to see Mercedes leave. It would definitely bring the grid closer.

But if F1 really valued Mercedes that much they would of offered them a better deal from the start surely.

But like been said above Mercedes get alot of payback from there domination of F1 weather its as much as it was before I dunno.

Does anyone know what happens if Mercedes or any team doesn't sign on Wednesday means?

I think this misses the context of covid-19 and the wider financial impact which could very well lead to more teams failing if the virus isn’t controlled and races don’t happen. The loss of Mercedes, especially if this extends to engine provision, would be critical if this had blown up last year. This year, well I suspect it could threaten the future of the sport. How many teams can you lose before you just don’t have a viable grid?

 

It can be argued that the influence of manufacturers in F1 hasn’t been entirely healthy and the dependence it has fostered on their continuing is a big part of that.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don’t pretend to know a damn thing about marketing so at what point (if ever, I guess) have they squeezed all the exposure/improvement in perception of the brand that they’re going to have by being in F1?  Or do they keep going because of stuff like that example of the toothpaste company who reckoned they didn’t need to keep doing adverts because they were number one in the market (and then saw sales plummet).

 

Or to put it another way, is the spending on 7 or more WDCS delivering significantly more than 6?

 

I imagine it's similar to car design. For a given amount of budget increase Williams would go seconds faster, Mercedes would find tenths. 

 

I do think Merc is getting good bang for their buck though, I think they're only responsible for about 1/3 of the budget? The other 1/3 is sponsorship and 1/3 prize money. And the headlines are Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes. Petronas is just background noise if you notice it at all. 

 

They can write some of the expense off as an R&D cost in a way you couldn't before(because hybrids) there's the income from the customer engines, etc. It's probably a fairly tight and efficient ship. 

 

Renault has to be spending just as much for nothing to show for it, basically. 

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 08 August 2020 - 12:56.

[SilverArrow31]

The idea that the historical payments and the Ferrari veto are still in the deal is terrible, whats annoying is Mercedes seems to want in on the deal, not to ensure its not carried forward.

I also think some are allowing their annoyance of the Mercedes dominance to cloud their judgement on this. Ferrari, Mclaren and Red bull should not be getting something extra that Mercedea aren't, its still corrupt even without Bernie. None of these teams should be getting more than the rest.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 08 August 2020 - 12:59.

[andrewf1]

I can understand Toto's and Mercedes' position very well.

They've been the best team for 7 years straight, performing at an excellent level with an excellent driver.

Red Bull hasn't won anything for 7 years, Ferrari hasn't won anything for more than a decade, Mclaren hasn't won anything for more than a decade and Williams is currently a joke.

Mercedes will also supply 4 teams with engines.

 

So when exactly do you draw a line and consider this team to be part of the sport's prestige and when do you stop giving preferential treatment to historic teams who haven't performed well for a very long time?

Mercedes has shattered almost every record in terms of performance and racing - either grant them the same status as Ferrari and Williams or revoke these bonus rights of the others.

[ExEd]

He makes perfect sense. 

There should be no agreement and Merc would be criminals if they sign anything.

Lets see how this pans out 

[kernel]

If they don't want to play, they can leave. I'm sure Lewis won't have a problem taking his global appeal elsewhere either.

 

Red Bull isn't ready to sign either, judging from Horner's comments. 

 

Wolff is making valid points about the negotiations, especially as it pertains to the heritage payments.

[Nobody]

Look forward to seeing their new racing league with 18 Racing Points lining up the grid, and two Merc still lapping everyone

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'm still a fan of taking the money the entire championship earns and dividing it equally, and letting the teams get performance based pay via sponsorship. A dominant team will always have more sponsorship and at higher rates, etc. That includes historic legacy, Ferrari will always command a premium vs another team, rake in money via merchandise and licensing, etc. 

[Albertino]

As a Ferrari fan it's easy for me to say they deserve some sort of historical payment (perhaps less than now), F1 is indeed a business and i wouldn't be surprised if 1/3 of the sport's fans are Ferrari. The veto needs to go, I don't know who they've got blackmail on but it's darn good.

 

Enzo Ferrari sold cars for the sole purpose of racing in F1. He's been gone a long time, but they will never leave the sport.

 

 

I disagree with Toto that being competitive on track should be a main precursor to commercial value, sure you get more air time, but Williams have been at the back for the better part of 15 years and still deserve their historical payments. If other teams managed to spend their levels they would be more competitive too. 

[JHSingo]

Oh diddums. My heart bleeds for the team that has dominated the sport for so long.

 

Time for the sport to start calling some manufacturer's bluff - it's the only way the sport will end up being healthier. If Mercedes don't want to play any more, then too-da-loo.

[Jovanotti]

F1 could do without Mercedes in the current situation, that's for sure.

Edited by Jovanotti, 08 August 2020 - 13:11.

[Chillimeister]

Oh diddums. My heart bleeds for the team that has dominated the sport for so long.

 

Time for the sport to start calling some manufacturer's bluff - it's the only way the sport will end up being healthier. If Mercedes don't want to play any more, then too-da-loo.

 

All very well, I can't disagree. But bear in mind that should Merc ever decide they won't supply engines, F1 would be ****ed as the other engine suppliers don't have that sort of supply capacity. Edit: At least that's what they claimed in the past.

Edited by Chillimeister, 08 August 2020 - 13:14.

[SilverArrow31]

Oh diddums. My heart bleeds for the team that has dominated the sport for so long.

Time for the sport to start calling some manufacturer's bluff - it's the only way the sport will end up being healthier. If Mercedes don't want to play any more, then too-da-loo.

Tell them to call Ferrari's bluff then...

[pdac]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that Liberty would come to a separate arrangement with Mercedes, should they not sign up (if the wording of the concorde agreement gives them that freedom).Of course, if the wording does and they do this, it would royally piss off all of the others who have signed.

[Marklar]

F1 could do without Mercedes in the current situation, that's for sure.

Max would have a good shot to break all season records then tbh

I see their point if it's about things like Ferrari getting outrageous high bonus payments, no one in their right mind would like that. And if they are - as rumoured - out of the top 3 teams the ones that was the most forthcoming with performance equalizers like budget cap I can see why he would be pissed.

 

In the end though this is most likely negotiation tactics, and I dont see anything wrong with it. Despite all the "F1 doesnt need Mercedes" crying here the truth is that in the current structure with them being the engine supplier with the greatest capacity F1 does need them, even if many folk dont like to hear that.

Edited by Marklar, 08 August 2020 - 13:22.

[Hakki069]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that Liberty would come to a separate arrangement with Mercedes, should they not sign up (if the wording of the concorde agreement gives them that freedom).Of course, if the wording does and they do this, it would royally piss off all of the others who have signed.

Ferrari would have a head fit if liberty did a deal with Mercedes after everyone signs.

I wonder if Ferrari demand a exclusive deal in terms of the veto and the big payments they get from F1 hence why Mercedes won't get offered it.

[P123]

Just part of the negotiating. Horner expects to sign, but isn't yet fully committed to it, and Racing Point have indicated that despite spending the least, the money on offer would not allow them to break even. With Ferrari still getting a bung, it doesn't seem that much will change. Perhaps the winning team will receive less and that is where the redistribution primarily comes from, which will grate with Merc. I'm sure they'll sign anyway.

 

I do like though that people are still in the huff with Merc (and Hamilton) for... winning.  Once you get rid of the pouting, you realise they run two cars, are due to supply 8 cars next season.  The Merc board want F1 to pay it's own way.  If it ends up slanted at the top more to Ferrari than ever (if we were lucky, the winning team would get somewhere near their money) before then it remains broken.  Sure, if they don't want to play nobody is forcing them.

Edited by P123, 08 August 2020 - 13:27.

[Jordan44]

They will sign, he's just testing the waters.

[Diablobb81]

Stfu. They have too much political power already.

[Hakki069]

Mercedes have always said they would like to stay in F1. But they certainly won't stay at any costs.

The Daimler boss has already said it must make financial sense going forward. But toto talks is a negotiation tatic yes. But it wouldn't surprise me ether way what Mercedes decide to do

[Chillimeister]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that Liberty would come to a separate arrangement with Mercedes, should they not sign up (if the wording of the concorde agreement gives them that freedom).Of course, if the wording does and they do this, it would royally piss off all of the others who have signed.

 

Absolutely. Not sure that Herr Wolff is much concerned about pissing off the others at the moment though! Mind you, this possibility has probably occurred to the likes of Ferrari et al.

[masa90]

Teams already have too much power on f1. That is damaging to the sport when they all just go for their own benefit and not the best of sport.

[Requiem84]

Time for some power play by Liberty.

Mercedes is already dominant on the track and is now trying to remain dominant in the political arena.

[pdac]

Time for some power play by Liberty.

Mercedes is already dominant on the track and is now trying to remain dominant in the political arena.

 

If Liberty were capable of power playing, then Ferrari would be severely pegged back, financially, in the new agreement. It sounds like they are not.

[Grayson]

It sounds like Mercedes's main complaint is that Liberty claimed that they wanted to change the financial structure to make things more equitable but that there will still be an unfair playing field that favours Ferrari.

 

How can Liberty justify a situation where Ferrari are still getting more money prize money than the teams who are beating them and where they get to keep their veto?

 

I realise that Mercedes aren't exactly the underdogs, but the fans and the other teams should be on their side in this argument and making sure that the argument is that things should be level and equal rather than unfairly favouring both Ferrari and Merc...

[Hakki069]

It sounds like Mercedes's main complaint is that Liberty claimed that they wanted to change the financial structure to make things more equitable but that there will still be an unfair playing field that favours Ferrari.

How can Liberty justify a situation where Ferrari are still getting more money prize money than the teams who are beating them and where they get to keep their veto?

I realise that Mercedes aren't exactly the underdogs, but the fans and the other teams should be on their side in this argument and making sure that the argument is that things should be level and equal rather than unfairly favouring both Ferrari and Merc...

That's true. Liberty blew the best chance they were ever going to have by taking Ferrari toys away from them in terms of the veto and bonus payments. The way they've performed these past 10-12 years isn't deserving of a veto over basically whatever F1 try and do. Yes they've been around since the start of time in F1 but these bonus payments you should surely earn not just given to you on a plate because you demand it

[pdac]

The thing is, it's a symbiotic relationship. Liberty need Ferrari and Ferrari need Liberty.

 

Liberty probably needs either Mercedes or Red Bull, but Red Bull most certainly need Liberty. For every other team, it's a one-way street - they individually all need Liberty, but Liberty only needs a selection of them or else any new alternatives that might appear. As individual teams, Liberty would be fine without any one of them (just not all of them).

 

So, really, Ferrari can negotiate a good deal by themselves. Mercedes and Red Bull can negotiate a better deal than the rest by themselves. But the other teams really need to act as one unit when negotiating otherwise they will lose out. They do not act as one unit - that is why they lose out.

[fisssssi]

Mercedes is Novak Djokovic. They think winning entitles them to be loved.

[w1Y]

Max Verstappen and Red Bull could do without Mercedes in the current situation, that's for sure.

Ftfy.

[w1Y]

Just part of the negotiating. Horner expects to sign, but isn't yet fully committed to it, and Racing Point have indicated that despite spending the least, the money on offer would not allow them to break even. With Ferrari still getting a bung, it doesn't seem that much will change. Perhaps the winning team will receive less and that is where the redistribution primarily comes from, which will grate with Merc. I'm sure they'll sign anyway.

I do like though that people are still in the huff with Merc (and Hamilton) for... winning. Once you get rid of the pouting, you realise they run two cars, are due to supply 8 cars next season. The Merc board want F1 to pay it's own way. If it ends up slanted at the top more to Ferrari than ever (if we were lucky, the winning team would get somewhere near their money) before then it remains broken. Sure, if they don't want to play nobody is forcing them.

It would also be and is an utter joke that the team that seems to have been caugjt blatantly cheating still gets favourable treatment.

Merc want f1 to pay their way and I think that's fair. Or at least don't pay unfairly to other teams

[Mark521]

It's always difficult to accept when a privilege has been taken away.  It's also hard to accept when someone else gets a privilege that you think you deserve too.

 

I would guess that Liberty started out with a "clean sheet" in regards to "revenue sharing, etc." but quickly had to restore some level of the current "subsidies" to get enough of the teams close enough to convince the rest of them to sign up.  

 

I don't believe that most of us think that giving Ferrari, McLaren and Williams a couple of bucks for "Historical Significance" is way out of line, but without knowing how much and how big of a slice of the total revenue shared with the teams it's hard for me to decide how much I should care.

 

Now that "rules veto thing", that's another story...

[beachdrifter]

This is about power: Toto wants same position in F1 as Ferrari and he's obviously not getting it. 

 

He doesn't want the same position as Ferrari. He doesn't want Mercedes to be the team that gets disadvantaged more than anybody else, including his main, exceptionally well-funded competitors.

 

And according to him, 80% of the field agree with him that the Ferrari special bonuses should not be part of the new Agreement - but he's the only one daring to speak out about it in front of the press, while the others only do so (but then vehemently) behind closed doors, while kissing Liberty's *ss in press interviews ("hypocrites"). I can see how that pisses him off.  

 

And then Binotto stands in front of the press saying, yeah, we love the new agreement, we'll sign. DUH! OF COURSE YOU DO!

Edited by beachdrifter, 08 August 2020 - 16:42.

[Hakki069]

Will be interesting to see if liberty back down over Mercedes unhappiness or weather Mercedes actually accept it or leave.

If Mercedes leave for example the team would probably be sold to Wolff or ineos which could be what liberty might want. Another independent team rather than a manufacturer

[Cirio]

I think it would be good if Merc pulled out. They'd sell the team - much cheaper than shutting it down - and it would still be viable. They would probably keep supplying engines, and if they didn't, there are still 3 other engine suppilers. Hamilton might stay in which case we'd see how good he was v Verstappen. Much closer racing all round. Or he could join Williams....maybe not.

[beachdrifter]

Will be interesting to see if liberty back down over Mercedes unhappiness or weather Mercedes actually accept it or leave.

If Mercedes leave for example the team would probably be sold to Wolff or ineos which could be what liberty might want. Another independent team rather than a manufacturer

 

Mercedes won't leave, Wolff said that a long while ago, despite knowing the conditions of the Agreement.

[Hakki069]

Mercedes won't leave, Wolff said that a long while ago, despite knowing the conditions of the Agreement.

Because toto said? Team principals always tell the right? It's likely there stay. But tbh out of the top 3 teams Mercedes would be the most likely to leave if there unhappy with F1. Redbull and Ferrari tend to use it as a threat rather than actually be willing to do it.

[loki]

If Liberty were capable of power playing, then Ferrari would be severely pegged back, financially, in the new agreement. It sounds like they are not.

Had Liberty held their ground with Ferrari they’d be in a better position to hardball the other top teams.  OTOH I don’t see the top teams writing down billion dollar investments out of spite.  Particularly when under the cap it becomes a more business friendly model.

[smitten]

F1 could do without Mercedes in the current situation, that's for sure.

 

Really?  You want to lose a team and an engine supplier to several other teams? 

[Astandahl]

It's hilarious that when money are involved Ferrari always get what they want. In this particular case much more money than any other team.

 

On the other hand they always lose in the tech regulations decisions.

[beachdrifter]

Because toto said? Team principals always tell the right? It's likely there stay. But tbh out of the top 3 teams Mercedes would be the most likely to leave if there unhappy with F1. Redbull and Ferrari tend to use it as a threat rather than actually be willing to do it.

 

Because of the reasons he gave for staying. They're no-brainers, so chances they'll drop out are zero. 

 

He's just taking a stand, knowing that at least he'll be able to say "we tried everything". I appreciate that. Much more than what the other teams are doing. 

[kernel]

The thing is, it's a symbiotic relationship. Liberty need Ferrari and Ferrari need Liberty.

Liberty probably needs either Mercedes or Red Bull, but Red Bull most certainly need Liberty. For every other team, it's a one-way street - they individually all need Liberty, but Liberty only needs a selection of them or else any new alternatives that might appear. As individual teams, Liberty would be fine without any one of them (just not all of them).

So, really, Ferrari can negotiate a good deal by themselves. Mercedes and Red Bull can negotiate a better deal than the rest by themselves. But the other teams really need to act as one unit when negotiating otherwise they will lose out. They do not act as one unit - that is why they lose out.

Right now, Liberty needs Merc a lot more than RB, given the engine supply.

[kernel]

I think it would be good if Merc pulled out. They'd sell the team - much cheaper than shutting it down - and it would still be viable. They would probably keep supplying engines, and if they didn't, there are still 3 other engine suppilers. Hamilton might stay in which case we'd see how good he was v Verstappen. Much closer racing all round. Or he could join Williams....maybe not.

Without Merc you’d see a VER/RB domination; only consolation would be slightly smaller gaps between RB and the midfield.